Suggestion to make DrKs more relevant (DrKs have been buffed, irrelevant post)

Yea, I really don't like the idea of the HP threshold getting raised too much while maintaining the same damage. I like @Relmy 's idea of the multiple zerk skills with different threshold and damage boost though, but again, not sure about how doable this is, but to me it honestly sounds more doable than the scaling idea.

It will be interesting to see if this is doable, because I don't think an underwhelming damage boost will settle the concerns.

 

if hex could be changed to ignore some damage % then i think berserk could be kept as is. making dark knights incredibly relevant and the best tanks out there, opening up new possibilities for seducing, and doing some damage in the process.

edit: this would still leave heros relevant, since zerk would still require 50% or lower hp to activate, and if dk was trying to seduce, it's hp would have to be over 50%

 

I'm against the idea of damage scaling at higher than 50% HP, or making berserk easier in any way since I think it's really unnecessary... we're able to zerk at every boss other than royal guard and the boss in showa. I think some sort of damage buff would be fair, since HB has been devalued more and more with every HP add-on introduced as well as the relevance of washing in the server. I think any sort of small damage buff would work and I hope this is what is being referred to in this months GM blog .

 

Any discussion about this is pointless now since they alrdy decided to buff the job(we dont know how), and theyre not changing their descition....
Also many drks like me and u agree that we dont want to make it any easier, but the scaling system has nothing to do with making it easier..maybe the thread is too long now, but if i read properly u will notice how work the proposed scaling system...wich sadly matt alrdy stated that is imposible...soo, nothing to discuss there either...
P.D. theres way to completely avoid royal guard touch dmg..and showa bosses beside bga(wich is a bit luck dependant) are zerkable too

 

At first, I didn't share my thoughts on this because my opinion really goes both ways and I had to think a lot more before I had some decisive conclusion in my mind.
I read many of the pages and a lot of what you guys are saying could be used as a great example for a buff but now I understand that I am worried, I am worried that the buff will defeat the challenge, the challenge that it is to be a dark knight in its core and I will explain why and also the dilemma that I see in my eyes when it comes to dark knights.
dark knights are fine, they are not weak and not too strong, they feel balanced overall but the issue arises when it is compared to its fellow hero, well hero is easier and because of that has a simple path if it wants to out dps a dark knight, on the other hand, a dark knight needs to be well experienced with the mechanics of the class in order to catch up and even out dps a hero with the right buffs eventually, but with time looking at the numbers, I can safely say that in terms of dps, at the later stages of the game, the difference is so slim between the two that you probably wouldn't notice it if you were to play both.
so the argument at its core is: isn't dark knight players supposed to be rewarded way more because it is simply just harder to play? logically yes it should be rewarded more, but if you look at the bigger picture, the reward is placed in the challenge itself, for instance, the way I see it: if I were to be a dark knight that get the same xp as my fellow hero in my party, not only I do the same amount of damage as him, I also get to experience a more thrilling way to play the game.
that leads to my biggest worry, that the class will be buffed to a point that the challenge is gone because for me, the reward IS the challenge.
so I am going to say it again, dark knights are not weak, with mastery they become as good if not better then heros, and if you really like dark knights you should appreciate what you have and thank for every unforgettable moment this class has gave you, that's the way I see it.
I will not lie, there is something inside me that wants a buff, that feels like a buff is deserved because of places like the boss or auf haven but even then, I believe that everything is playable and possible if you try well enough, and even if some times it feels like it's not, maybe it's because it was simply designed to be this way, so I accept it.
I am not going to suggest a number to change or which skill to buff, all I care about is that dark knights keep their identity as being the most challenging class in the game(yes sairs u heard me), if you want to compensate the challenge through utility or range I will be glad and appreciate it, as long as it's not to a point where it's too strong.

 

my suggestion is: a significant cut in crushers' animation time, and a longer vertical range. also, a speed boost on ski's(fast 5), and pinaka/faltizan (normal 6). like come on, the only fast 5 spears are low level spears like fishing rod and maple impaler.

i also made another suggestion earlier about giving hex the ability to ignore some damage percent (instead of just a defense boost). or maybe an easier code would be to increase drk's achilles, like marksman's strafe was buffed. whichever implemented, i believe these buffs are essential for intuitive drk gameplay, and would solve everyones gripes with the class right now.

 

Since devs noticed our situation in the current meta, they have decided to make little reworks to our job. According to gm blog, theyre going to be implemented in the next patch, so i highly doubt that thyre changing anything last time bcs our suggestions.So my best advice would be, wait,try out new changes and do the feedback later after we trying them out enough.

 

My dumb prediction: zerk threshold goes somewhere between 45~60% and achilles gets a 5-10% buff

Or beholders heal rate goes up

 

Just in case the buff actually is increased zerk threshold or equivalently, enhanced dmg reduction, I want to ask if those who pushed for thy suggestion actually tried zerking against the bosses they fear. How is this extra few % dmg reduction actually going to improve Drk's value in the current bossing meta?

Let's look at multiple examples that were mentioned in this thread

Zakum, Krex, Shaolin, CWKPQ
If you are not a beginner Drk but struggle with zerk control against these bosses AND require a dmg reduction buff, I sincerely think you chose the wrong class.

Royal Guard
A solution for royal guard was already found. If royal guard is pinned to a corner and melee characters stand at close range, royal guard's rush-like attack will flash past them without making physical contact. You only need above 7~8k HP to survive from its orb attacks.

Toad
Because toad's magic attacks are very simple and limited in variety, a guide was already made on how to utilize 40% ginseng potion with autopot setting at the lowest mark, minimizing the effort for zerk control. Even if the damage is reduced, it won't make zerking noticeably easier or harder.

Bodyguards
I personally never went to Showa boss raid on my Drk. However, I hear the damage doesn't exceed the zerk threshold. I can still imagine how troublesome they are but based on the observation from runners, issues arise from their mechanism, not the actual damage. Even with a slight reduction in damage, they are still dangerous to zerk against. Such buff won't suddenly allow you to autopot so the same risk is still present.

Auf Haven
By the time you attempt this boss (min lvl 175), you should have Achilles 30. Auf touch damage 16000~ is reduced to 13600 ish with Achilles on 15%. If Achilles gets buffed to 20~25%, it will further be reduced to 12000~12800.

Now, if a Drk tried raiding this fallen angel, they'd have noticed it's not the actual touch damage that threatens their life but a mixture of spammy disables (stun+sed) and magic attacks, given very little time to react with appropriate potions. If Drks are stunned and auf is charging in their direction, no smart Drk will float there and try to maintain zerk range HP. Logic is to use PE or ginger ale for time being and focus on surviving from multiple touch damage. When auf is pinned to the left corner by buccs/pallys, this boss' difficulty becomes a mix of Toad + vergamot where you need to control your HP after every big magic attack but you often get sed as well. Enhancing the dmg reduction hardly affects the Drks at Auf because the main risk is not based on the actual touch damage but a mixture of every threat in the room. If a Drk ends up dying, it is most likely caused by wrong positioning or slow reaction, that would not have changed with dmg reduction buff.

I can see that many people including OP wanted an extra room of convenience, but based on my actual experience (for most of the existing challenges), damage reduction hardly improves the QOL for Drks in the current meta. Slight dmg reduction, that won't break the balance, still leaves us under similar risks due to the mechanism of the bosses. Regardless of the tiny 1~2k dmg difference, as long as the bosses aren't overpowered to 1shot us or pose mission-impossible threats against zerk control, we will have to struggle anyway to deal any decent damage that will still be below that of hero's. If the dmg reduction/zerk threshold is buffed to a point Drks resemble heroes, that crushes the unique design of this class completely. Therefore, if it's inevitable for Drks to overcome a certain struggle, please don't try to anesthetize it vaguely but make the outcome rewarding enough for us to tackle the challenge.

 

If TLDR.- An small buff on achiles/zerk is worthless if were getting 2 hitted anyways.

Also yes. except by bga "lemme show u my little friend" skill, all showa bosses are zerkable.

 

It's actually not too difficult to react to his 27k kick and he also doesn't use it very much. The real issue is you can't zerk on top of him because he does too much touch damage and if you stand in front of him you risk getting stunned, which defeats a warriors purpose at that boss. You could actually fight bga like other Warrior's with a stronger achilles, but that seems like a huge waste of a buff opportunity.

 

Would u mind sharing ur metod wich makes it "not too dificult"..i mean i have avoided it b4, but its a bit luck dependant since my method to avoid it its similar to avoid anego slap(thanks sparky) by sound, the diference between those 2 is that u probably NEVER solo bga as a drk, and with a squad of 3-6 members it will be really dificult hearing the boss sounds since all ure gonna hear is skills sounds.And the casting speed of that is actually faster.Being on top of him or stun shouldnt be a problem since 3 bish for perma holy shield is kind of a MUST there...it doeant have pre quest so, its not that hard to have 3 bishops there.

 

It's kind of like Anego, but you want to watch out for his animation instead. Anego's slap has more range than Bga's kick and Bga's kick doesn't seem to connect until a little after his attack starts up; additionally, Anego slaps way more often than Bga kicks. Bga punch has much more range than his kick so his ai is most likely to continually punch you since you're most likely always going to be in that range where as you have to be very close for him to even consider procuring a kick. The actual threat is that his kb can be janky when everyone is attacking him. He's more likely to accidentally get reverse kb towards Drk's and that's too fast to react to, which is an issue since Drk's can't even zerk his touch damage.

Sum it up, he won't kick at max 4th job warrior range.

 

funny thing seems that u haved problems with things i have been able to easily manage..meanwhile u re having an easy time where i dont, crusher range foward is enough to be as far as posible to easily avoid the touch dmg, so u shouldt die by reverse knockback....meanwhile the fact that ive always runned with an nl or bm with so many hits blocks my vision(maybe bcs i play with a really small screen) and sound, so i barely can anticipate the 26k hit.....player difference i guess...

 

Wow this thread is still going on?

 

agreed, I resemble with what you are saying for the most part, when considering almost any buff dark knight identity is at risk,
I will just be honest and say what I think, the problem exists simply because players are just not up to the challenge, or if they are up to the challenge they look at it in the wrong way, there is a certain difficulty to playing a dark knight that players apparently don't want to accept as is.
but on the other hand, there is the feeling where I can not place blame on someone who expects to earn some sort of advantage for their hard work over other easier warriors, I personally do not think that players complain just because they are not able to compete at certain bosses, most players complain because it is simply harder to compete as a drk, it requires so much more effort and focus.
I personally would want it to stay the same way, I enjoy the challenge and appreciate every bit of it, I have already made this statement above, the real reason I am making another comment is that I am really curious to ask you, what would you do if you theoretically had to decide what is the next step for dark knights, would you change anything? would you keep it the way it is ?, I will leave aside the fact that other warriors are getting buffed too, lets theoretically say if only dark knights were subject to be changed, would you make a change or not? @sparky95
I am directing this question to you because you have a very strong opinion(justified, based on the amount of experience you have) about dark knights and about their current state and would really appreciate knowing what would be your decision.
my opinion is that if the challenge is too hard for a player, and it feels more like a burden rather then a progressive and thrilling experience then they simply, unfortunately, should not choose dark knight as their job.
some people might not like what I am saying but in my eyes, it's simply the truth.

 

That's pretty much what I reiterated for a long time in every drk-related thread.

As I have stated before somewhere in this thread, my personal dream is to see berserk % reverted back to 40% (like old source) to bring back the actual challenge but buff the damage so we can stand out as the "challenging but rewarding" class; even if this change limits Drks from raiding 1 or 2 end game bosses. Drks are currently stuck in a vague position where they aren't recognized as a worthy support class nor high DPSer with proper risk.

As the current meta in royals is heavily centered around bossing, the value of each attacker class is mostly weighed around their capabilities in boss raids. Whether it's due to nostalgia or lore, Drks have a strong disadvantage in weapon choice vs heroes. We need a buff from fellow buccaneers to produce maximum DPS and without it, we'll fall behind heroes by a significant margin. Even with this buff, outside 0 difficulty wall bosses like krexel, it is practically impossible to outdps a hero (with equal funding) due to numerous obstacles that chip away the DPS every few seconds - as I proved with the zakum challenge. It would be unfair if Drks can easily outdps heroes yet provide an essential buff for survival. That is why enough risk must be entailed to balance the two.

The picture I wish to see is...

• Hero standing out as the all-rounder who deals stable-decent damage in any given situation, regardless of their proficiency.

• Experienced, trained Drks dealing high DPS (recognizably higher than that of Hero's) in certain bosses. Inexperienced, lazy Drks dealing subpar damage due to deaths, failed/slow zerk control etc.

One may raise a concern that an increasing population of veteran Drks will dominate the bossing scene and make heroes obsolete. However, we can already predict the realistic outcome based on the Sair-NL relationship. Master Corsairs are guaranteed to out DPS NLs with fancy techniques but 95%+ competitive players prefer playing a convenient class with stability and 0 risk. When the character's survival is at stake instead of DPS, even more people will favor stability over a challenge.

Although a Drk may not raid certain end game bosses with 40% zerk range, I think it'll be worth the trade in the bigger picture. Bosses you can no longer zerk against would be BG and Toad. BG is really not a favorable boss for Drk even in the current state and I believe solutions can be found for toad, just that it'll be highly unwanted. These bosses were already abandoned by the majority of Drks due to their intrinsic difficulty. If we can excel in all other bosses, serving as a support class for 1~2 bosses won't be a detrimental loss.

 

well, giving more reward in exchange for making the challenge even harder, to me seems like the perfect idea,
but that just me and that is the problem, you can clearly see that the community is desperately asking for a flat reward and I think that if it was made even harder, there would be even more frustration, and that is again because of the fact that players are just not up for the challenge that it is to be a dark knight.
so the bottom line for me is, it is impossible to satisfy everyone, some like the challenge the way it was designed to be and some want it to be easier cause its simply easier for other classes too.

completely agreed, perfect example, players will always prefer the easier and more stabilized way, heros will never have a lower population than dark knights because of that, especially when mules are so heavily favored in this meta and if dark knights need to zerk at even lower % hp, controlling mules becomes even harder.

with all honesty, I hope for something different but I expect we are going to see a flat buff to Achilles or something of that sort, which would disappoint me, but as I already said that is just a result of the fact that satisfying both perspectives is impossible.

anyway sparky, thank you for your detailed answer to my question!

 

new patch arrives and Dks get the buffed all we are waiting for it. Can any pro active dk gives their experience whit this new buff? its what we wanted or dont get a lot of differeced whit the dk on last patch?

 

Well, I'm not a drk player but this is a straight 5% damage buff so long as you are in berserk. So for nessi's krex run, he would have finished in around 14:52, saving 44 seconds. Also, drk single target damage should almost be identical to a paladin, judging based on this.

The extra Achilles % should help too. If drks were only comfortable with taking 14k damage post Achilles in the past, the max damage pre-achilles is 16.4k. With the extra 5% to achilles, it's 17.5k pre-achilles damage which should make tanking damage much safer. More specifically, it should make tanking auf safer since auf touch does high 16ks-17k.

I would consider drks to be the best among warriors now, excelling in both single and multi target damage, with the caveat that there requires some skill in playing them and that they need to be fully buffed (with si) to reach their full potential.