Let's discuss: do you think this deserves an unban?

Reading the discord history between Tim and Shin I just have to point out an observation - Shin's constant poking and prodding at Tim to try and do things "behind the scenes" for him instead of making a forum post, like any of us would have to do in a situation similar to his, is gross. The premise of what he is trying to accomplish by doing this is very similar in nature to what Tim did in overturning Raony's ban.. the fact that nobody else is able to make this connection without getting flak by being called misognyist is dismissive and discourages any sort of constructive conversation.

While I understand that Sharon is (allegedly) very torn and hurt about what was said by Raony, I see many people here applauding Sharon for bringing this to light on the forums. Which is excellent, this is, in theory, where productive discussion to prevent this type of stuff from happening in the future should take place.

I also think that it's disgusting that some of you equate that Tim's idea of having a policy in place to deter petty harassment repots is the equivalent of implementing a 48hour deadline to report rapes before they become illegitimate.

 

Instead of jumping the gun and responding so emotionally, I highly encourage you to read both of my posts ITT in their entirety. I have overtly expressed that he handled this instance in an unfair and inconsistent manner relative to how other harassment related offenses have been dealt with. I am absolutely on board with ironing out any form of bias, unfairness, or inconsistency in rule enforcement. I have always been incredibly vocal over the years that the staff and their application of the rules is absolutely fucked and beyond unfair/inconsistent.

 

1.Regardless of whether it is sexual harassments and doxing (which it is), the fact that you were both his guild leader and friend should have been a mental reminder to recuse yourself and let a someone handle the appeal. There is obviously a conflict of interest, but you have yet to address that. You should've realized that you had a specific interest here and left it alone, but you chose to take this on. If the other members of the staff truly felt that this ban was unjustified, then it would have followed the course of the system.

2. The fact that her facebook is public, does not in any way, give anyone permission to go through her account and take ss of them. Not to mention spread them around to other people/servers. The fact that it was deleted does not change the fact that he invaded someone's privacy to do so. The fact that she shared it on other platforms does not mean that it is free for anyone to take without permission.

3. Why were these standards not applied to other people who have just recently been through the same ordeal? Why was it when it was your friend that you finally decided to speak out?

Is any party in here completely innocent? No, but the way this was handled was disturbing.
The comments made were misogynistic and from a place of privilege.

Would anyone else have had the same opportunity to appeal through discord and not through proper forum? Would you have pushed this change in the ToS as swiftly like you did her if it were any other player?

No one is denying the contributions you have made in the time you've been here, but that does not mean that you are infallible.

 

@timk how about Instead of just trying save face why don’t you just acknowledge the fact that you gave your friend privileges by letting him appeal directly to you vs. posting his own ban appeal then you went and you made a rule to support your decision. There’s so many parties that we can point fingers at and blame as the wrong party but their wrong doesn’t make yours right you abused your power and You’re showing misogynistic tendencies by blaming the victim and dismissing a fellow female staff for her feelings on the situation and dismissing it as “overreacting”

 

So what I learned ITT:

Saying “you got big tits but need more ass” + finding a girl’s picture from 2014 and posting it to a discord channel of 100+ people and saying she’s ugly

is not as bad as

“what’s up c-word”.

 

So when i say something racist to another mapleroyals player in real life, i should be banned on the server ?

 

So Tim's response is :

• Long backstory of events that rehashes what Tim knows because his friend (Raony) confessed to the harassments and cried to him before in a ten minute call.
• Flexing again he is 6years on staff.
• Conveniently forgets
  • how Raony continued to be condescending to June in Shoutbox
  • how he himself gaslights that June was only throwing a temper tantrum and how we are all overacting
  • how he more or less threatened maple staff with his own departure if did not immediately enforce 48 hour harassments reports. (So convenient after what you claim weeks of your own personal frustration, that you just HAADD to put your foot down, right after conveniently unbanning your friend).
• TimK digging himself into a larger hole.

let's break this down on how Tim's claim that what Raony did was not doxxing is INVALID.

• Doxxing as defined by wikipedia/google : Doxing, or doxxing, is the Internet-based practice of researching and publicly broadcasting private or identifying information about an individual or organization. The methods employed to acquire this information include searching publicly available databases and social media websites, hacking, and social engineering
  • Internet-based practice of researching: To acquire image of Sharon that was not shared by Sharon, Raony would have to search facebook (which accordingly was an older image in 2014. I don't know about you guys, but i have to scroll ALOT to get an image form 2014)
  • publicly broadcasting private or identifying information about an individual or organization: Raony confesses to this act as well
  • searching publicly available databases: self explanatory on how Tim's claim is wrong here too

Where is this grandstanding for "justice" for other players? Why only now for your close friend? You should have recused yourself when your friend's ban came up and had NO opinion at all to be fair.

There have been plenty of ban appeals for harassments prior to this where people claim "it was a joke". Yet GMs would stand by the ban in claiming they have proof it wasn't. Now you have again a similar situation where Raony claims it was a joke. Sharon obviously does not feel the sexual harassments was a joke. But here you are, suddenly so much sympathy for the jokester...

Also LF> evidence his initial 3 day ban was this same report by Sharon. You mentioned it, but there was 0 proof. (I predict though, Tim will similarly say he needs permissions from both people which he hasn't received yet)

 

As myself and others within this thread have clearly stated, the time to cope with, assess, and report an incident of harassment cannot be quantified; especially by a third party who has a conflict of interest in the case.

Could you please elaborate on why Sharon and Raony being friends invalidates the doxxing claims? Even if they were friends, Raony did not have Sharon's explicit consent to share her Facebook photos. Sure, she has a public profile; but as mentioned by Raony himself, they were not friends on Facebook.

Regardless, Raony obviously snooped on her profile and went so far as to take a screenshot of one of (or maybe even more? who knows) her photos which is just flat out creepy.
Using a photo of yourself as your pfp on Discord and posting multiple photos of yourself on the Forums are instances where you are actively in control of the information that is being shared.
Having someone share screenshots of your photo and FULL NAME from Facebook, regardless of your privacy settings, is unsettling and considered doxxing.

As others have stated, by no means am I supporting the racist remarks that were aimed towards Raony. I stand by the decisions to place the bans on the mentioned parties, but if these instances didn't sit right with you Tim, is it just a coincidence that you pulled out your veto power when it involved someone who you are known to be close to? How did it not occur to you that there would be community backlash over this coincidence?

 

"His first language is Portuguese and he’s pretty blunt about it. While she says: ‘stop raony, wtf’ we can see that she didn’t want to talk about tits, butt or her body.
The whispers from Raony indicate that he had no ill intent allegedly. He felt like she misunderstood because of the way he communicated it to her and tried to give additional information of what the reasoning behind his whispers were with workout advice (Raony is a licensed nutrition coach and does personal training)."


I mean....his posts here seem to communicate perfectly...and she clearly said no in the SS yet he continued to talk about squats...but okay...guess language barrier is definitely an issue here seeing how he's been able to write paragraphs of excuses. Never heard of a nutritionist/personal trainer telling me someone can improve my their butt...but remind me to never take recommendations from the people who think those comments are okay.

Seems like a lot of correlation of events is causing assumptions - the timing of events are leading you to believe that it is a timed revenge attack. Understandable, but at the same time you can rebuttal maybe she never had the courage to rebuttal to the sexual comments, but now that she has backing of friends encouraging her who understand her situation she was finally able to file a formal report. Either resolution is correlation, still doesn't change no means no. Also not condoning that their racist rebuttals were acceptable either (e.g. the pet naming incident quoted in your post).

Also once again not condoning either behaviour is in the right here but..."He is aware this made Raony cry at some point and that it’s racist towards him."... So what about how Sharon felt? Screenshot still showed she said no, yet he tried to pursue the conversation. Unless is Raony not aware of no due to language barrier...? /s

Let's be real, people have been weaponizing ToS for years, it's just never been on large scale of attacks and voices being spoken prior. Yet, when it was being weaponized between guilds it was "under review" but you magically felt the need to immediately turn it around when your friend is in trouble? Sorry, this may be correlation in itself but this is what I see based on what's quoted below. What a magical coincidence :/, the friend who is close enough to cry to you gets banned and "gets ToS weaponized" on him happens to make the grey line. Once again just one person's opinions from what I read, appreciate the thorough explanations as it did explain more details to the conversations that occurred and as one person's opinion I still believe this was a harassments case even though it seems as if staff definition of doxing is different than mine (and possibly others), and the fear that Raony had to delete messages (with variety of eyewitnesses confirming in thread of seeing the doxing occur) comes to show that guilt really played a part. And the fact that the transparency took a while to be generated seems like another grey line.

"We as staff recently discussed on Dec 2nd that the harassment rule needs changing and I’m aware the rework for all rules is in the works, however I want the proposed change we have for this harassment rule proposal to take effect IMMEDIATELY and I will use any sort of veto power I may have to do so:"

 

I don't know shin or raony personally, and it isn't my place to judge who's in the right or wrong and don't get me wrong tim, i have the utmost respect for your dedication and time you put in this server but honestly,

Why the inconsistency in your approach to handling these situations?
On one hand, you told shin via discord "don't ban appeal to me pls" and forwarded him to make an appeal, and on the other, you interfere with Raony's ban appeal process after hearing his side of the story through discord presumably despite you telling Shin you'd stay out of it. Shouldn't you, as one of the admins and longest serving GMs, be impartial in your actions? And the fact that this was not communicated to the GM handling the appeal speaks volume about this whole debacle.

 

sharon is confortable during her feeling "scared and vunerable" to buy a pet monkey and named him after Raony

 

If you're reading Tim's post, stop here.

Why? You're trying to blame this on the premise of revenge but she came to you complaining about this incident on November 11th, where you as a guildmaster should have done something about it. Something a little more extreme then giving him a soft lecture. In fact it comes to my surprise you don't feel the need to talk about it with him. So why is the word C* banned but this kind of language/behavior isn't? This "I'm a professional" doesn't explain his audacious behavior, calling one of your colleagues "baby" in a sexist context, attacking Sharon on her personal life, much like she did in a public group chat. And your complaint/rationale is that she only decided to report it because she was pressured into it a week later? Even if she was encouraged to file the report, where she decided against it, as most people who feel insulted do, because it shows weakness, it shows that she was sincerely insecure about these things and wasn't confident it would be handled correctly, guess what, she was right.

This isn't even mentioning that he served his time already which backs up June's claim that your assessment is inaccurate. And out of all that, you showed us no information from Sharon that was new or convincing that it was spiteful, just that she was reluctant and that she went to you a few times to see how you would react as a guild leader. Was she trolling then?

Raony has attacked people in this thread directly, offered no proof and attempted to put up a bad faith argument regarding him sharing her picture, which you have conceded was in bad faith. Do you understand? Like, even if Sharon forgave him, even if she had a change of heart because of scenarios, again, you have conceded, doesn't change the fact what he did was wrong. You lost the public confidence, half your staff, all because of some fuck boy trying to claim being called monkey is racist against BR's. If you did your due diligence;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_chanting is not the same as calling someone "Monkey", and is not listed as an ethnic slur. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Roany is a liar, he has proven this to the public as he tried to question the allegation towards him even posting the SS, and it being taken down by the guild Jr's of the discord. He knew that and challenged it on that basis. Earlier this thread he was attacking these two individuals personally, mocking their contributions not by merit but by slander. He's offered no reasonable explanation nor has he really apologized for what he did, let alone admit what he did was wrong. Just that he's being exploited, he's not being treated fairly, and he already apologized, showing us contextualized apologies which were later admitted to be for entirely different harassment offenses he did.

Do not die on this hill, this guy is a scumbag through and through.

 

She never said she was comfortable. People have different reactions to situations that impact them where they do not know how to react, one reaction could be anger, and in retaliation to dismiss the disgusting things Raony says could be to lash out. Not speaking for her, but people do have different reactions.

 

I support TimK's efforts in trying to find what's best for the server, though there may be some flaws in his resolution. I encourage people to continue sharing their ideas. Maybe something better can be worked out.

P.S. I'd much rather this level of energy be put towards trying to think of ideas to improve the server and focusing on the game, such as my thread here: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/bridge-content-between-old-and-new-players.179199/

 

Don't strawman this.

If you know someone through royals, then you share the server/game/maps/guilds/communities as them, then you both are under the ToS and should oblige by it. Meeting someone in person and starting a scuffle is irrelevant to how people are treated within a community, where the community has written explicit rules condemning the behavior.

I also mentioned that every player in this involved is in a different country or did you conveniently leave that out?

 

Lol “things can be worked out” when theres a change in ToS regarding punishments fir sexual harassments and for it to be not overlooked as the previous posts did :/
Its upsetting and not fair.

 

Just reviewing Tim's response and reading you guys responses just really makes me cringe... It's almost like you ignored everything Tim had said.

Like do people really NOT look at things in which the CONTEXT was used in??? In regards to this situation, these two people were literally "friends" that shared a type of dialogue amongst one another that was humerous and callous on a regular basis and with Roan not being a native english speaker, he may can come off as more blunt than usual.

This situation is literally like if you were to date someone for a year and you guys have sex on a regular basis. One day you both have sex while intoxicated and a week later, one of them finds out you cheated on them. That person then goes to the police and says "that person raped me because I was drunk and could not give consent". Now the public is going to take her side and that is "rape" (and it is rape you should never engage in sexual activity with someone who is drunk) in the eyes of the law, BUT if we look at the CONTEXT then you can see that it was clearly out of revenge because that person found out the other person cheated on them.

All im saying is that sometimes things gotta be looked into more directly and judged on the siutation in which it happened. All you guys jumping to immediately point this person out to be "this and that" which yes, he shouldn't have said that, but ya'll making it sound like he went up to someone RANDOM and said all this stuff lol.

I think we all stand strong against any misogynistic/ racist remarks, but ya'll lets drop all the bull shit and be real. It's clear as day this was done out of an act of revenge and honestly if you can't see that then idk what to tell you.

 

Tell that to the next woman who has a report along the lines of this. What you’re saying is so not why people are flamed up for!

 

So do we not do anything about Raony's misogynistic remarks then? Let him be the way he is? You saw how he was misogynistic to June as well, you can't tell me, "Oh that's okay."

 

Ah! Yes, great detective work. I, being a Watson, can you please slow down and appeal to my pea brain real quick because I just have a question;

What revenge do you believe she was going for if she messaged him on November 11th, but her 'boyfriend' getting banned November 23rd. Only thing I can think of is time travel, but surely she would use that ability for something more productive!