Class/Skill Improved MM Feedback Thread!

I always see people say that MMs are strong early and thus don't need damage buffs. And then I see people say MMs are weak and need damage buffs. This is honestly just confusing for people who are curious about the state of MMs in comparison to BMs.

What's the DPS (or DPM) comparison of a BM, MM, and MM w/ SI at Levels 120, 130, 140, and 150 in perfect scenario? I think knowing this, we'll be able to actually know how MMs compare to BMs in perfect scenario early game and can tell if MMs really are good early game.

 

thing is like this, both MMs and BMs are users of the most important buff in this game, so comparission in terms of dmg should just be done between them and not with other jobs(comparing a bm/mm with a nl/sair or any other job tbh does not make sense if u ask me)
from lvl 1-120 both are pretty much the same
from lvl 120-135 Bm is slighty better since lvl1 hurricane beats lvl 30 strafe(SE included)

but the real thing starts from lvl 135 by then both have max SE alrdy and 1 will have lvl19 hurricane and the other will have lvl 19 snipe... snipe is a skill that deals a big amount of dmg(close to cap when maxed) regardless of ur dex/att, so for noobies/casuals this is straight up AWESOME. Everyone seems to be thinking in nessis bm vs his MM .. thats just wrong, im aware that theres many ppl who start hardcore in this server, and theres many others who just buy a shit ton of per things to their new accounts, but we have to consider new users and casuals aswell, so with low or mid fundings a bm hitting 15-20k critic lines on apple will not match a MM mainly on krex/zak where MMs now have another advantage that is snipe hitting during cancel.. lets not forget to mention than strafe is a skill that is dependant on SI buff..so witouth SI the difference will be a bit smaller, other than that MMs have another skill than is a really powerfull training skill called pierce, but since grinding in any other job that is not a mage is worthless in this server, we cant count on that beside cwkpq archer room.

but the real problem starts with mid to high fundings and higher lvls...even with snipe BMs eventually will match and outdmg a mm and not on so end game status.. i would say that any lvl 150bm can match if not outdmg a MM alrdy, not to talk how much they outdmg at higher lvl fundings, now lets remeber 2 points now:

1.-BMs are absolutely undependant on other buffs to do their best dmg...they dont even need their own booster! meanwhile MMs lose 20% of their dmg witouth SI..20%!(and despite what ppl could think..aside krex, is not that easy to have SI on zak and specially on HT)

2.-Most of our royals life..is gonna happen on mid to end game status..even if you decide to play instead of leech you probably going to be more time between lvl 160-200 than 1-160... so if you ask me MMs still see like a bad option , altought i will say this with my mouth little since, i really would like to see the real difference between a 135-150 bm vs MM with 35 wa gears and a 3-5b weapon..if i see that MMs are at least 25% stronger than bms at those lvls..i could say things are not that bad(still not good tho)..but if the difference is smaller then i would put the label of "meme job" str8 up..

 

Best thing to do is make MM be the better SE class (in terms of dps) until lvl 170-180 (with decent gear) and BM stronger in late game. There must be a difference between the 2. Great way to do this could be buffing a bit more the snipe dmg, which without any great gear does a lot of dmg.

 

Yeah.. That's what I said

I'm not interested in common statements. I'm saying I want to see the numbers since its better for understanding. I want: DPS (or DPM) comparison of a BM, MM, and MM w/ SI at Levels 120, 130, 140, and 150. Maybe I could try looking at Geyforlife's dps calculator...

 

oh shure i would like to see that too.. but what about gears7weapon... that makes a difference too...

 

wow i didnt know. thats amazing that added the cancel weapon attack back! i must have been gone for a long time

 

I've updated and edited the op reflecting input so far.

Obviously I'm personally resistant to just suggest a direct attack buff, because I think MM suffer somewhat from identity crisis both in their skills and community perception, so my personal suggestions reflect that giving other skills indirect attack buffs also gives class related identity and place by buffing and rounding out their flat implementation in what is today's meta (of linear/useless skills), and even going to bat for some BM skills to keep some things squared in my mm suggestions (concentrates avoid boost, infernos damage and dot boost from bow expert)

This overall gives them more color and life as well as edging them to close the gap many high levels have shared they suffer from.

However a basic attack buff is obviously always on the table, but as I've said I think there are other, more fulfilling ways to get to the same place MM aim for

I don't see MM as a support class just because they have SE, just like drks aren't because they have hb, so nearing BM dpm damage in their own MM way is what the vision here is

 

Sadly this class is dead, Drks argued together for the sake of their class but i think there's no people left to argue in behalf of MM pros and cons, the people that did have quitted or moved on and that should say something regarding the status of marskman on this server.

 

Marksmen do pitiful single target damage.. the theoretical output charts that rank marksmen in the top 5 dps made by staff for balancing reasons are completely at odds with the empirical evidence performed on 2nd krex eye. Sniping through weapon cancel is a nice novelty but doesn't noticeably close the damage gap (unless you're at apq balrog ). Clearly, the damage output of MMs is far worse that what staff intended for the class, so buffs to improve MM DPS are needed to fix this situation.

Snipe
Buffs to snipe damage, either by reducing cooldown or increasing the damage cap are good ideas, but shouldn't be made hastily. Snipe damage output is independent of gear/attack and peaks early in 4th, which is one major reason for the concerns raised by earlier posters of marksmen not scaling well into the later game. If snipe is too strong and becomes a greater proportion of MM damage output, it discourages further investment into att gear and using apples -- as it is, ~30% of MM DPS is fixed via snipe, so a marksman only gets ~70% of the benefit of improving their gear or using apple because these only affect damage from strafe [this + strafe's low multiplier is why they suck late game].

Some clever people have made suggestions for changing snipe that address this specific scaling issue. Even with the above concerns, my experience has been that marksmen are so, so, weak, that raising the damage cap from 200k to 300k+ is probably a needed fix to help this pathetic class.

However, snipe cooldown should not be decreased for two reasons: First, players have developed strafe/strafe/strafe/snipe combos. Second, if snipe cd was reduced from 4 to 2 seconds, that would essentially half the number of strafes that a marksman does between snipes. With 2-3 strafes, instead of 6-7, between snipes, around 60-75% of their damage would come from snipe and be completely unaffected by their equips! This would really prevent MM from scaling into the endgame, assuming we're defining 'scaling' as increases in level and gear affecting damage output.

Marksman Boost
If any damage improvements come to the marksman class, adjusting Marksman Boost to improve Strafe damage is probably the way to go. First, the staff have already shown a willingness to edit this skill by having it give watt, and second, it's a skill whose sole function is to help with 'scaling'. MMB could be modified to boost crit rate, further increase weapon attack, strafe damage %, etc. These are simple and sensible options that would really benefit the class, and also would affect damage based on the gear investment of the player unlike straight buffs to snipe.

Finally, archers deserve more HP and piercing arrow shouldn't be cancelled if hit by a mob. This is my favorite feedback thread and I love mapleroyals and I love marksmen and I thank @Cooler for raising this discussion

 

Mmb has the most potential for a straight damage buff, or more mechanical buff:

-increased mastery (highly lean on this suggestion)
-slight increase to crit rate
-chance to 5 line strafe (FA required?)
-advanced mortal blow (increased mb stats, increased damage on bosses at low health, increased mp cost)
-more than one strafe arrow can proc kb (like hurricane)
-chance to/ignore w.def (similar effect to increased mastery but makes gear more valuable)
-passive avoid boost
-passive darkness resistance
-chance to proc kb without hitting threshold
-low chance to crit kb threshold on bosses if char is at full hp/mp, costs hp/mp when procs
-chance to 100% crit during darkness
-gives snipe short auto target effect
-max FA can proc snipe at 10% chance when using strafe with max snipe, but still puts it on cooldown. so slightly faster combo, less chat log clutter potential lol, increased snipe mp cost
-dodging slightly increases next strafe damage (so more dex/avoid gear, slightly better strafe damage) +2~4%, increased mp cost
-dodging slightly increases crit damage, not rate, increased strafe mp cost
-and of course, , max mmb slightly increases strafe damage

 

just a clarification, both bms and mms ARE a suportive/atacking class bcs of SE, theres a big diference between SE and HB, in gms drks were also an suport/atacking class bcs despite wash was a thing wasnt nearly as comon as it is here, and on top of that HB is an spearman skill not a dark knight one, SE is a 4th job skill , and the most important of all is that SE is witouth a doubt THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTY BUFF IN THIS SERVER, BY FAR.

Disclaimer. With this im not oposing to MMs buff, i actually think they might need one(how big is dependant on how big is the actual difference between bm and mm on lower lvls/fundings), i just think the discussion should stay in comparisions between Bms and MMs, and not outside their class....

 

I think hs is much more valuable tbh. But I main a shad and get little out of se, it's really just archers, which don't exactly count, and the ubiquity of NL that make se so popular. I still wouldn't call mm a support class just because of se though. Buccs get two amazing support buffs, and aren't strictly considered support.
I know exactly what you're saying but I just disagree it makes archers a support class because of it

 

few months ago i would be open to debate this, now i dont anymore, ive spended hours explnaing ppl why im shure SE is the no1 in party buffs here, redacting long text, and why HS is overrated, but ill try to sumerize.

Despite theres some jobs that barely benefit from SE, SE is extremely important for NLs as everyone know, and a big % of total atackers i nthis server is an NL, then that alone should be enough, but SE is really important for Drks and Sairs, it does not duplicate their dmg, but it increases it by a really decent amount, i wont count archer themself bcs for them its not a party buff, rather a self buff, now, despite its less impactful,l is actually benefitial for heros,mid-low funded buccs, and it also help bishops to 1hit dw more often in HT.. to end up they only 2 jobs that barely seem benefits from SE are shads and pallys(and its not like they dont seem benefited AT ALL, is just that theyre the less benefited from it) now lets put this in real life situations. Theres just a few times, and just when run was about to end(not talking just about HT, also zak, krex..etc,etc) when we losed the SE user, that i actually finished that run, most times when se dc, run is GG, many of them were over 50% done, and many of them aswell haved just 1 or no nls at all

Now when i said HS is overrated i can see coming questions like: are u crazy? why u think hs is bad?, or many insults, no, hs is no doubt the 2nd most important buff, but the reason behind ppl thinking is the most important one is: "why there has to be a bishop in every run then? Bishops are OP and probably the most imbalanced job in this game bcs, is a fking conglomerate of really amazing suport skills, bish is actually the most OP suport role that i ever saw in any game, it has the 2nd 3rd 4th and many amazing suport skills, so its bishop as a whole that makes hs look beter and not the oposite..question, what do u when hs mule/bishop dc?..even at shao where pretty much the only reason u go is for exp, if hs dc most of us just continue and feel a little bit bad..it doesnt ruin the run, just make it less profitable(in terms of exp), to sum up:

No SE= no run SE DC=GG
No bish=probably no run aswell bish dc=oh fk, well what to do...

this is why i think SE users shouldt be really that close in terms of dmg with jobs like sair shad or nls, they dont have as utility as bms are, now SI is actually overrated...is the oposite of SE just a few jobs seem actual benefit from it, and for most is kind of meh, or dont get affected by at all(this is why i laugh when i hear si is the 2nd most important LOL), TL is actually pretty amazing, but is something that is just good to have, is not a must or whatsoever, sometimes u have it and dont even use it , so no their utility is way less impactfull aswell thats why they need some more dmg relevance to be balanced..

Now i think were derailing a bit here,and im not saying that archers should be a purely suport job, but in their case its actually an part suport part atackr role, and thats why the comparission should be done JUST between bms and MMs, can use other jobs example as reference, but not as a point of comparision...

 

Maybe remove the charge up for pierce and give it cd in exchange. It should be a useful skill on multi boss or summons, but it seems too slow and also requires foresight to use.

 

Here's an estimation of average DPS outputs between BMs and MMs from lV120 to LV200.

Spoiler

Included in thumbnails are the assumptions behind it -- the BM and MM are about equally funded to the tune of about 10-11 billion meso and their gear doesn't change at all between lv120 and 200. Both have base STR of 4. Both classes max SE, then Hurri/Snipe, then 4th job mastery, then MW. Without SI the MM does 6 strafes between snipes and at max Snipe does 12 snipes in a minute so you get 66 strafes and 12 snipes a minute (this is from my own testing with MM). With SI you can fit in 7 strafes between snipes to get 77 strafes/min. The big jump for MMs at lv140 is maxing snipe.

The conclusions? At baseline without an apple it seems like a modestly funded MM can hold their own with a modestly funded BM. However once an apple is thrown into the mix or players start heavily investing into weapon attack, the BMs blow the MMs out of the water by about 15-20% after level 150 and the MMs need SI in the party to even hang on (for worse damage!).

Spoiler

Of course this assumes perfect conditions, no repositioning, no rebuffing, etc, and I didn't include the effects of Concentrate or the bird summons. Curiously, 16% is about the time difference between endgame BMs and MMs done in the krex eye experiment. Hope this information incites some good discussion and if there are any buccs in your boss party and you're not going to apple R>MMs instead of BM for a faster run!!! Soon I hope to update this post with estimates of how different attack gear and attack pots differently affect BMs/MMs

 

much appreciation @whitemagejames , that's the kinda technical stuff I was hoping to see brought up

interesting charts.
i don't even necessarily want mm to be better or even equal to bm, just closer, and I'm totally fine with that dynamic and meta, and which is why I look at other angles to buff mm than pure damage

 

If a 4th job skill increased strafe DPS how would it affect MM DPS progression compared to BM's?
In this feedback thread and others before it there have been suggestions to increase the damage of strafe -- 5 arrows, higher crit rate, stronger crits, more mastery, increased strafe multiplier, etc..
All of these do the same thing in different ways which is to increase the damage of strafe. So let's just ask: how does increasing strafe damage by buffing marksman boost (max at 150) affect MM DPS progression?

Spoiler

Above is a plot where each panel represents a +X% boost to overall strafe DPS (not strafe multiplier) as a part of Marksman Boost, maxed between levels 145 and 150. As strafe damage increases, the gap between MMs and BMs shrinks at later levels and the 'early game dominance' that marksmen are talking about as having is more profound.

In my opinion, a 15-17% boost to strafe DPS is the sweet spot -- here, the BMs out-DPS MM's with and without apple at later levels with similar funding, but SI can put the marksmen over the top. Also, at +15%, BM and MM progression is close enough that investing heavily into attack gear could make an well-funded MM out-DPS a medium-funded BM and a well-funded BM could out-DPS a medium-funded MM+SI.

For me, a 15-17% boost ticks all the boxes of what MM progression should be like:

Spoiler

1. Stronger unbuffed, relative to BM, early game
2. Fall off late game unbuffed relative to BMs but not complete trash
3. Snipe+Strafe is the optimal DPS
4. Funding can close the gap -- up to a point (5)
5. As funding/WATT increases, BMs perform better than identical funded MMs -- still retaining MM reputation as a class optimal for low-funded players

some notes:

Spoiler

BMs at baseline are given the effects of Concentrate at levels 160-165. Max concentrate is a +17.33 WATT boost (4 min active/6 min cooldown)*26 WATT. BM+Apple does not have concentrate effects.
MM+SI without apple was not included because I think the situations are rare for a marksman to be doing single target DPS with SI without using some form of attack potion. If you're grinding mobs at late levels--lol!--you're probably using freeze+pierce+snipe primarily instead of continuous snipe/strafe combo.
The equips are the same as in the earlier post, about 10-11b each, unchanging from lv120-200

How could strafe DPS be boosted by 15-17%?

Spoiler

Since strafe damage can be estimated based on crit rate, crit damage bonus, number of arrows, strafe multiplier, and range, we can see how changing any one of these things by different amounts affects the DPS output of strafe:

Spoiler

Raising the mastery to 100 boosts strafe DPS by 5%
Boosting crit rate by 10/15/20% boosts strafe DPS by 9/14/19% respectively
Increasing strafe multiplier by 25/50/75% boosts strafe DPS by 10/19/29% respectively

Regardless of how strafe DPS is boosted, the way in which it's done is ultimately cosmetic. In my opinion, I would prefer crit rate to be boosted by 16-18% in line with role-playing as a sniper marksman who always hits the opponents weak spots . Or any combination would work: boost mastery to 100 and boost crit rate by 10%. Or increase the strafe multiplier by 25% and boost crit rate by 5%. It doesn't matter.

Drawbacks:

Spoiler

In my opinion, the biggest drawback of this implementation is how strong it makes the skill Marksman Boost. MMB currently increases strafe DPS by like 12% through mastery and also provides 15 WATT. If MMB was buffed to give an extra +15% strafe DPS it would probably double the effects of this one single skill. It's still not better for overall DPS than maxing Snipe though. Perhaps a buff to improve strafe DPS could be spread across multiple 4th job skills. For example, MMB could boost crit rate by an extra 5% or increase mastery to 100, and another skill like Blind could boost crit rate by 10-12%. Combined they'd provide the strafe DPS buff. You could imagine Blind 'blinding the mobs' so its easier to hit crits? LOL

In summary, a 15-17% boost in Strafe DPS would make MMs more competitive with BMs at higher levels. This could be done by having MMB or MMB + Blind give a 16-18% boost to crit rate, among other things.

I'm open to avoid changes and other changes for MMs as well, it's just tougher to predict how much avoid boost or the other suggestions would close the gap between MMs and BMs. I zak'd the other day and was so jealous at the ranged arms because the NLs weren't getting KB'd at all and it was totally screwing my DPS relative. So I'm sure something like avoid/shifter would help, probably by a lot, but by how much exactly and how it would affect their progression relative to BMs is tough to say. BMs get KB'd too but their relative dps doesn't fall off a cliff because of flat snipe damage so that mainly why I'm focusing these thoughts on strafe buffs. I'm not content with the MM/BM dynamic & meta as it stands -- right now MM does stand for Mega Mistake (as least single-target DPS)!!

 

15~17% is a fat increase. I still think mm damage should be more conditional than a flat built in damage buff like that, otherwise they are just op and ppl won't make bm. Conditional buffs like I suggest do a few things at once, give the class more distinction, and, require investment for pay off, (can't just max triple throw/meteor and you're done), and they balance power creep and abuse from deep funding, while still rewarding powerful gear. This is important for mm because if a mm goes snipe before mmb, they have a pretty big advantage at 135 over other 135 players, while at the end of their leveling, they drop down a lot. So a conditional buff to their main attack strafe such as something like:
If frostprey is active, after using snipe, each successful strafe increases in 1.5% damage, up to 12%. After the cap is hit, snipe needs to be recast to restart this progressive buff or it drops to base damage (every 8 hits)
This way, se, snipe, mmb, and likely maple warrior all need to be leveled before frostprey before you can get this buff

Otherwise flat damage buffs throw the class off much more in early 4th, which is not needed, but conditional buffs help in later levels where they suffer but you will also have the invested sp to utilize them

Hope what I'm saying makes sense and you see where I'm coming from. Drks were given a similar buff recently to achilles which is not at all an early skill that gets maxed but it was buffed because it helps them zerk, therefore attack at highest potential, with a bit more ease--a conditional, indirect buff to damage

that's why I suggest stuff like blind tweak, or adv mortal blow, or snipe auto target. these things only affect bosses and only conditionally, but if utilized, increase overall output. the strafe combo I suggested earlier wouldn't even need frostprey, I just threw that I'm because it's maxed late and lots of high levels here say mm damage starts strong but suffers badly end game. since everyone wants to improve and not just be strong early and suck later, these conditional suggestions bridge what everyone wants, while balancing early and late game

 

To be honest, I can't say I perfectly understand the merits of this approach. The example you mention where snipe would increase the damage of successive strafes up to 12%, incrementing by 1.5%, is a creative way to increase strafe damage, but is ultimately a 'flat' increase as you call it. If an MM is doing 7 strafes between snipes for optimal DPS, this amounts to an average strafe DPS increase of (+1.5 + 3 + 4.5 + 6 + 7.5 + 9 + 10.5% / 7 strafes) = +6% "FLAT". This is identical in effect to having a skill buff crit rate by 6-7%, except it would be far more difficult to implement.

I do think, and I mentioned earlier, that it may be a good idea to include a strafe buff, or part of one, in Blind, to 'distribute' a hypothetical strafe buff across multiple late-maxed skills so MM growth doesn't halt after maxing MMB (LV150). If this is where you're coming from (not putting all the eggs in MMB) -- we're totally in agreement!

But really, where I'm certain we disagree, is I think that these 'conditional' and somewhat gimmicky buff suggestions in the OP, and others like the one about pierce becoming an instant attack with a fixed cooldown, fundamentally change how my favorite class plays. Marksmen are not avoid-heavy ninja shadowers with a 30% dodge rate, they don't have bullseye and battleship torpedo like corsairs, they don't provide debuffs to the boss like pallys, they don't have a skill called advanced mortal blow, etc... These are changes that I don't believe mesh with the playstyle of a marksman in this server.

The achilles/DrK buff was good because it helped DrKs zerk which is what DrKs do and were doing - zerking - and did so by improving a characteristic of the class that already existed (reduced incoming damage).
Any buffs to MM should help MMs be better at being MMs and help them do what they already do, which is:

A marksman is, to me, a class that does the following:

Spoiler

1. supports their party members with SE
2. provides stable DPS using a strafe/snipe combo, with benefit from SI
3. relies mainly on crits, like all archers
4. is better 'early game' compared to BM and falls off 'late game', and is more suitable for unfunded players than BM
5. can mob well with freeze, frostprey, and pierce

Spoiler

6. shouldn't be complete and total garbage compared to BMs at single-target DPS (work in progress)

 

I do not want them to have 30% ninja avoid, I don't want them to have bullseye which casts auto target and gives a huge damage boost. their blind debuff suggestion would only work against the boss and mm, so a very conditional but helpful mid/late avoid buff and they do have mortal blow so I dunno make it do a little extra? I'm trying to be creative within the class itself, and I think a lot of the ideas I suggested do mesh with their style. Adv mortal blow would give them a good dmg/crit boost when a boss is near death, meaning your gear helps, and the majority of the battle is over so it's not likely you will suddenly lap eveeyone for white exp but it helps

To me their style is unseen, accurate, lethal 1v1 ranged skills, slower than bm but can also control mobs better with calcultion. Bm are faster, flashier legolas types.

and yeah the conditional buffs are somewhat gimmicky I guess because I would rather see mm fill out their skills more and be buffed holistically than receive a flat damage boost and still just be the weaker blue ice archer and bm the stronger red fire archer. both classes have lots of interesting skills and concepts that are mostly in the useless or throwaway category, which is a shame

I'm also approaching the class this way because if staff thought mm needed a strafe boost, they would just do that. Obviously they don't think that and there's like always a thread about helping mm, so I'm trying to think outside the box while inside it's own style, and any of the conditional indirect buffs would help them a lot, while also fitting their style and being more fun than the current useless skill dump. A flat dmg buff would just beget a BM thread being made about hurricane needing a buff or concentrate needing a buff or bow expert needing a buff because that's how chipping pure dmg on works.

I'm fine with bm being the superior class, but starting strong and ending so far behind and the 200 grind being grueling is not a good dynamic for any current or future player. I'd rather mm be super fun to play with a little extra punch than be perfectly equal or better than bm, they can have the number one spot, no complaints here, but I'd just rather mm skillset not literally just be strafe because snipe outmodes itself, pierce is wonky and not boss viable, blind is useless, etc, etc. They have a wonderful toolkit it just doesn't synergize or translate into the meta because of odd mechanics and scaling, my suggestions try to bridge all that at once without dmg and would just be more fun to play imo, and that's the most important thing here.

skills that have function and flexibility instead of being linear stepping stones or sp dumps are just much more fun and rewarding overall, and give classes character and playability if you actually look for something more than bragging about whiting. and they don't have to be overpowered or convoluted to be dynamic like this, in my opinion. maybe I'm just awful at expressing this, or nobody is interested, but to me it's 1000x better for mm and all classes and players to not simply keydown a main attack, rebuff se and assume your pet will heal you, and much more fun to have dynamic, engaging roles or combos. but that's definitely just me