Class/Skill Improved MM Feedback Thread!

Don't forget shooting prone and while climbing too lol, give em something special

And I haven't played my sair in a long time but I believe in ship the distance they get kb is less than normal?

I'll add another goofy conditionial out there as well because who knows what will stick to staff and players:

-give both birds a slight buff:

phoenix
-give phoenix DOT like inferno, works on bosses only at max, works through cancel. a modest chip buff for max bird and like @Joez has pointed out, archers in general have fallen behind a lot compared to other attackers over time


frostprey
-mobs frozen by frostprey (but not blizzard) recieve a damage bonus, or a weapon defense ignore flag, or an increased insta kill rate by like 3%. bosses hit by max frostprey could be affected by something such as:
-chance to ignore defense?
-increased in crit rate?
-increased crit damage?
-general small attack increase to strafe (+4%?), or w.att
-dot?
-ignores elemental resistance? (does neutral damage at max)
-increased attack rate on bosses? (hits more often than normal)

Also I remember a rumor about snipers that there was a chance to insta kill blizzard frozen mobs. Was that true and does it still work? If so, have frostprey slightly improve that rate, and give a chance to do heavy crit damage to bosses at like 3% chance with max fp


the birds are also late skills, so this would provide small but helpful buffs to both classes especially when they can be totally useless due to elemental weakness or just how weak they are in general

 

Lots of suggestions have been made on how to improve pierce, here is my master list:

• no hit cancelling qol
• lowered/no min distance would really really help pierce
• can fire in air (also prone and while climbing because why not, it's a tactical skill and requires active repositioning and dodging as you're trying to hold off for a full charge)
• slightly less charge time (like by .3 or .5 of a second)
• still must be charged
• damage is kept the same (or slightly lowered if charge time is lowered)
• maybe increased crit rate or damage when using pierce
• mortal blow chance%, damage/insta death rates are raised significantly when using pierce (if min. distance can't be changed)
• perhaps a 4/5 second cooldown just like snipe but no charge? I don't love this though because you can't use it any time like normal
• two tap firing. First tap activates and begins charging pierce, but you can freely move, run, jump, climb, and attack with everything else while charging. drains mp slowly during passive charge and halves your speed (even with haste). Second tap releases the charge and attack.
• maybe making it fire like chain lightning instead of horizontally (doesn't fly around as wild as CL but has more flexibility) but keep the charge
• Increases avoidability when charging (+30-40)i
• Pierce still charges like normal, same amount of time, but acts like chain lightning? Not super wild like CL but not strictly horizontal either/ has some vertical bounce but still detects sequential mobs (doesn't go backwards)
• Pierce passively charges. So it's essentially on cd at all times but you can still fire it any time, but depending on how soon you use it again, will change it's damage. If you immediately fire another piercing arrow, no charge, lowest dmg, if you run and jump and pot and F5, assuming it's been 4 seconds or whatever the perfect charge time is (where you get the swirling gold light under the fully reeled back and loaded xbow graphic), then it's full dmg. This is better than it simply being on regular cd like snipe, because, like iron arrow, it's really nice to have if you need it anytime, especially on mobs that don't freeze.

~if I could be very dreamy and get whatever I wanted, I would want it to be able to be charged with 1 key press, and can be released any time after a 2nd key press. While charging/charged like this, you can still move but don't need to hold your pierce key at the same time like how it is now, you can use other attacks, heal, but mp is constantly drained until released and your char slows down by half or something this way you could juggle strafe, snipe, and pierce, would be very engaging and fun, and I love the pierce charging animation

I think it's hitbox is fair and fine and I would very much like it to not be changed to be affected by speed infusion, the buccaneer meta and reliance is frustrating and pushing warriors out of parties in general

But as I already cautioned, we have absolutely no idea if pierce can even be changed, so we shouldn't get too ahead of ourselves over it. even if it can be changed, they will probably just remove the charge like they did with the assassinate multiplier, and lower the damage a good chunk

 

True, I'm not super optimistic about if PA can be changed in ways we would like to see. Hopefully one of these days the developers will pop by and let us know what can/cannot work. The press to charge, press again to release sounds especially difficult.

I think the few changes most would be okay with are the melee distance firing and ability to release in air. (but seeing as how so many classes STILL can't attack while floating in auf even though some can in aqua road, ehh) Oh, and I hate how we can charge then climb ropes yet we can't down jump while charging, would like if they would make it possible. I think having it remain a charge skill is nice, and kinda works well if we can charge then position/jump/release mid air, though with maybe some changes to the charge time so it fits comfortably within the 4s snipe cd (it's a lil awkward to use to me now with a dsc and only booster, at least). I don't like the current vertical hitbox since even trying to kill cornians for hp quest (in The Forest That Disappeared, for example) makes me miss PA when i'm a little too high/low on the slope platforms. Trying to hit anything on slopes is so, so horrible, and I think bms have a better vertical range(?) and can farm crimson guardian hearts more easily in maps like the one inside hall of mastery. But perhaps the ability to release in mid air/melee range release can help with some of it (even if not fully).

 

if you think about it, it would work exactly like ship, except when you dismount (release) you fire off an attack at the same time

...if that makes it any easier for the singular developer here lol

 

• Eliminating cancel when hit - a great idea, and the single greatest needed improvement to the skill
• Charging - PA should keep its charge because the instant fire and fully charged versions have different uses. Instant fire helps in clearing multiple faraway mobs that are low level or near zero hp faster than multiple strafes. And setting up mobs in a cluster using freeze and puppet in order to fire off multiple fully charged PAs is part of the marksman experience
  
• Removal of the firing distance - while it would help, this is what dragon's breath, power knockback, freeze, and puppet are for
• Overhauling the skill (spammable like torpedo, cooldown) - no changes needed, piercing arrow charging and doing increasing damage though multiple mobs is one of the unique things about the class. It has its uses, it's just a bummer that grinding parties and good high lv maps are rare in royals

PA can be improved, yes. I agree that PA changes are unlikely to remove the Mega Mistake designation. To try to fully balance MMs with BMs in boss runs by changing PA (and PA alone) is unworkable because PA is meant for multiple target mobbing and 95% of the time in a high-level boss situations the situation is 1v1. So when the party is choosing between BM and MM they choose BM for 1v1 damage. I would too. So these PA improvements should happen separately to improvements in the MM 1v1 combo (strafe + snipe).

If 1v1 dps is made competitive then the party can go - oh BM vs. MM? Do we have SI? What's their level/range? Then the decision to recruit an MM v BM would depend on party composition and investment in the archer instead of just assuming the BM deserves the SE slot.

 

The problem is that the community is somehow only able to see it as a mobbing skill because of the QoL limitations. There has never been a chance to truly test its damage and effectiveness against bossparts because of these limitations. Let me give you an example. In a zakum or a HT run, in 100% of parties I've ever been in, a DrK would be chosen for the multi target damage over an extra BM if going by the damage alone (there already is SE and no other multi target), despite the BM having higher 1v1 damage than the DrK. No questions asked, triple damage at arms/HT right side wins. Multi target damage is highly valued in the correct situations. Now imagine there is no hero or a DrK and the party is trying to decide between a BM and a MM for zakum or HT. Suddenly having access to a usable PA sounds like a lot better deal.

Being able to fire PA close to enemies does not invalidate these skills. Dragon's breath and pkb can be used to easily move mobs to line up a better PA shot since often the mobs are too scattered for PA to be useful even if it can be fired. Puppet is vital for distracting high hp area bosses such as BF, samurai and anego especially if the archer isnt highly washed. Freezing is for stopping mob movement and has a wide variety of uses, notably stopping boss waves from scattering upon spawning, rooting shaolin clones etc. Arrow eruption does not make these skills useless either despite being able to fire close to enemies.

Why do I ask for the limitation to be lifted? Because of the PA firing reach. To be able to line up all the boss parts you need to be able to fire close to them, otherwise PA simply doesnt have enough reach to hit the further away ones (zakum right side arms, HT head C, right side arm etc). We need this interaction to make PA hit more than 2 bossparts, otherwise it'll remain useless in bosses. Joe's note that PA only reaches its furthest potential at high hit counts is valid, we need these extra bosspart hits to make it work.

Again, I am not against buffing single target as well, but a subsection of the MM playerbase has been looking forward to being able to use this for years now, and over and over again PA QoL changes are ignored. The way people see the skill would change if we could actually reliably use it in bosses.

 

@whitemagejames I consent and agree about the min distance point you brought up, I forget pierce is often used below max charge due to efficiency or necessity.

Removing the min from fully charged pierce is my new stance, even though that sounds difficult, or, as I suggested, pierce's mortal blow stats go up significantly

@Nivi
I feel confident saying if only the quality of life changes were made to pierce, which again is a complete dream to everyone discussing it at the moment (no cancel, low/no min distance/air release) and pierce kept it's current charge time and damage, it would change little to nothing in bossing right now. An all MM ht run would be fun though (sniping cancels and full piercing)

It mostly needs the qol suggestions and the smallest amount less charge time to give it life, but pierce in the bossing meta would still be very conditional.
Archers need to focus top right zak arms unless there's another range char (not always the case) and you need hb or fat washing to even shao, and pierce there would cost time because it's much slower than blast, and if you want perfect conditions you'd need to be washed, keep mobs left of shao but still left of your melee, which the spawns are being pushed right when you pierce them, it's too conditional even for me in the 10 minutes

 

I'm curious to know of what you think of the MM changes @whitemagejames. Do you think its good change even though you recommended 100% mastery+10% crit rate?

 

Would like to add that many of the changes proposed in here require significant client modifications, and are not possible. There are some changes such as Dragon Breath working up close, or Piercing Arrow not cancelling midair, whose feasibility we are looking into. But I can't promise that they are possible.

 

I’m so happy that staff agreed mm needed a single target late game dps boost and think increased mastery was the cleanest improvement that could be made, because it doesn’t change how the class plays or how the skill works. It’s a more substantial buff than the 5 watt given a few updates ago. For a mm with 184 watt (>lv140 with 12b in equips) this buff is worth +9-10 watt. I’m pleased that this buff happened because it means that the mountains of posts in this thread and other mm threads were heard by the staff and implemented in some capacity. Thanks staff for listening @Joong !!
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It’s my opinion that mm should compete with bm at single target late game depending on funding and si, because it is poor relative dps in this department that makes mm a complete joke. If the goal was to balance the archer classes this way, then a further buff is still necessary - probably around +10-12% to strafe dps, which could happen in any manner that fits within the limitations of the client. We'll have to see if the mastery boost changes the perception of mms on the server.

But the optimal mm/bm balance, and whether mm and bm should be balanced at all, are matters of opinion, as seen in this thread. And we don’t know if staff's goal with the mastery buff was to make mm fully compete with bm @ single target dps in a funds/si-dependent manner. It would be insightful if staff shared their idea of what they envision the role of marksman to be in the server. Then the mm community could have more informed feedback about how well the mastery buff helped in the context of what mms are 'supposed' to be in MapleRoyals.

 

There's an issue that if we buff strafe too much, Snipe will eventually become useless (already useless at high attack range) which I am not for. Any thoughts?

 

Snipe will not be useless as it now hits through weapon cancel and not every MM has a godly xbow to deliver high strafe dmg.

I think the latest MM boost to 100% has significantly closed the gap between MM and BM. I think MM is pretty strong as a class now!

 

This is an interesting question. How strong does strafe have to be so that strafe alone out-dps strafe + snipe?

strafe + snipe: 66 strafe + 12 snipe / min
strafe + snipe + si: 77 strafe + 12 snipe / min
strafe alone (tested just now): 82 strafe / min
strafe alone + si (tested just now): 90 strafe / min

no si

Spoiler

when strafe + snipe = strafe alone,
66 strafe + 12 snipe / min = 82 strafe / min
-> 12 snipe / min = 16 strafe / min
1 strafe = 0.75 snipe = 150k

without SI, 1 strafe would have to do 150k dps on average (or 37.5k per line, on average) to be better than strafe + snipe
1 line of strafe dps can be calculated as (0.45)(1.25)(range) + (0.55)(1.25 + 2.4)(range) = strafe line dmg
average range (max+min/2) would have to be 14.6K for strafe alone to outdps strafe + snipe without SI

In order to achieve 14.6k average range, a lv200 mm with 128 str and 1220 dex after mw would require 341 total weapon attack.
-148 from perfect dragon xbow
-100 attack with apple
need 93 watt from (shoe + cape + glove + pendant + rings + medal + peripheries)

if your upper range is 15.4k strafe alone > strafe + snipe without SI
+si

Spoiler

when strafe + snipe + si = strafe + si,
77 strafe + 12 snipe / min = 90 strafe / min
-> 12 snipe / min = 13 strafe / min
1 strafe = 0.923 snipe = 185k

with SI, 1 strafe would have to do 185k dps on average (or 46k per line, on average) to be better than strafe + snipe
1 line of strafe dps can be calculated as (0.45)(1.25)(range) + (0.55)(1.25 + 2.4)(range) = strafe line dmg
average range (max + min)/2 would have to be 17.9K for strafe alone to outdps strafe + snipe

In order to achieve 17.9k average range, a lv200 mm with 128 str and 1220 dex after mw would require 417 total weapon attack.
-148 from perfect dragon xbow
-100 attack with apple
need 169 watt from (shoe + cape + glove + pendant + rings + medal + peripheries)

if your upper range is 18.8k strafe alone > strafe + snipe with SI

the current mm leader in the mapleroyals damage range thread has an upper limit of 10262. I will make the assumption that their total watt from weapon and equips is >200, so an apple is unlikely to increase their range by more than 50% (2xx + 100 / 2xx) < 50. Using apple, it seems no mm in the server is strong enough such that strafe alone > strafe + snipe since upper range needs to be >15.4k. It's probably possible for the best players with a demon elixir since you'd 'only' need 53 watt from gear along with a perfect dragon crossbow. So even is strafe is buffed by 10%, only the most hyper-geared players would be in a position to consider strafe only vs. strafe + snipe. There is leeway to buff strafe without this becoming an issue for most mms.

 

I wish to add my opinion that buffing 3rd job skills to achieve 4th job goals is not an optimal route. We would prefer to avoid affecting one part of the game because another one needs tuning, if it's possible.

 

3rd job is rather minor though since you spend most of your time in 4th job anyway (and most people just leech in 3rd job anyway cause they are washing).
Also MM isn't really that strong so even if it did get buffed it would still be weaker than classes like Chief Bandit, F/P Mage, Drk and so on in 3rd job

 

What is this referencing, buffing strafe?
Buff it in 4th, not third, if that's what you mean. In the case of strafe it's literally our main attack. That's why so much discussion falls on it, and even suggestions like advanced mortal blow, improving an inherent class skill, would still take place in 4th (like double shot becoming triple shot for sairs. seemless coding wise and mortal blows animation doesn't need to change). Improving and calling back skills in later job adv happen all the time, it's good for class identity and an easy way to boost passive skills.

Were talking about marksmen not snipers, just to be clear and any suggested retroactive buff below 4th while in 4th was intended that way and not the opposite, I think across the board in these suggestions.

Marksman boost literally retroactively does that for second job mastery and it was just buffed from 90 to 100 so this comment is a bit bewildering atm, maybe I'm missing something. MMB is also an early max, passive skill so it's the perfect vehicle for those sorts of suggestions.

Any other mm buffs besides strafe or boosted passives in MMB are all more technical and gimmicky due to the nature of the rest of the skills available for mm, so those are the options according to your isolated 4th job limitations that seem arbitrary w/o any reason behind them.

Pierce is much more vital than fixing dragons breath imo, but I guess we'll see what's possible.

 

Point taken, however I reject the idea that we should take the official stance that the game ”is about” 4th job and the endgame, unless it’s an absolute necessity. Thus I would consider it only if there was no alternative.

The issue is that Strafe cannot be buffed for Marksmen only; it will also affect Snipers. See my comments above. I’ll write more if I receive updates on what’s possible to do!

 

I figured I was missing super simple there. How is mmb able to buff mastery retroactively and passively, but not strafe? I'm not even for buffing strafe to help mm, just seems very finnicky.

Anyway we appreciate the engagement and updates and I'm sure the mastery buff is being well received (I'm currently lost in the new stardew valley update)

 

@Joong thank you for sharing your thoughts about game balancing and looking into what's possible to do. I'm concerned there may be a misunderstanding and would like to point out a distinction between buffing 'damage from strafe' and buffing Strafe, the 3rd job skill. The former is what drags mm 1v1 dps down late game, and can be adjusted through 4th job skills, like the marksman boost mastery buff in the last update - which increased 'damage from strafe' for marksmen, but left Strafe the skill untouched, and so did not affect snipers because snipers do not have Marksman Boost. Adjustments to the 3rd job skill Strafe directly would also affect snipers, which I agree wouldn't be optimal.

 

I've never questioned the viability of piercing arrow until I tried hunting mavericks, and that was a living nightmare

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