Remember when a year or so ago they increased the cost of NL recharge and dropped the avoid on shadow shifter, and every single NL main cried about how the class was completely unplayable and it wasn't fair? Remember how a week later absolutely nobody even cared and we were back to NLs being the meta, just like always? Seems like NLs don't remember. They could lose 0.1% of their DPS and they'd act like it was the end of the world.
So was the intent to nerf avoid by a large amt like this or was it intended to be a small nerf that cldnt happen due to client restrictions?
I remember it distinctly and use steelies when I’m not bossing with other people to this day. We fedback, no one from staff wanted to do anything, and no one was going to quit their nightlords. But it doesn’t mean we’re any more happy about it. It is extremely demotivating when staff do not provide any solution and just hope the community accepts it and moves on, and this has been the awful attitude with regards to nerfing changes that’s culminated in the frustration our community has today. I do not accept the argument that just because people stopped complaining it’s not an issue anymore. Players are left in a pretty powerless setting when the only choice you have is quit vs accept the change, when staff are not going to action anything. In either case, bystanders won’t see a vocal response. That does not in itself equate to “this is not an issue anymore”.
I can't play atm, so can actual players demonstrate how bad it is being dramatized as? From my pov, and as a *unwashed* 198 shad, the game was very easy even with the nerfed shifter and avoid (and there would be no difficulty if I was washed). NL are a super mobile *ranged class* with a chance to avoid 1/3 of all attacks and then some, and you are definitely washed, so how is this affecting you so badly? it's really hard to imagine for me. You are safe on the range plats in HT 40% is a lot. The only thing that comes to mind as a shad is climbing platforms in HT. But now we have a buffed smokescreen, and 40 shifter back. Yes the plats in HT are awful and everyone fucking hates that, and I don't have any input about that atm Main question: with just the luk change, are you 10% less avoidable?
If we could try with the smaller reduction then I doubt that there would have been any buff to Shadow Shifter. So the larger reduction meant that Shadow Shifter could be buffed to make the skill feel more impactful whilst still reducing overall avoidability.
Translation: I nerfed them and then I nerfed them again, so much so that I can revert my first nerf and call it a buff to make anyone who believes me feel better
Except feedback got the change partially reverted a few days later. NL recharge was still nerfed compared to previously, and NLs went from the cheapest class in the game to still being the cheapest class in the game. Don't forget, that patch also massively increased NLC pot cost, which hurt other classes significantly more, and also nerfed alchemist to 25%. These were all good changes because the game needs more meso sinks to combat inflation, and while there was some groaning from everyone about increased pot costs (not that they got more expensive, more that they literally quadrupled in price), most people knew it was coming eventually and that it was a good decision. NLs lost a bit of money on their recharge and apple costs, but compared to every other non-thief class losing a lot MORE money on potions, it was a roughly equal nerf for every class in the end. Didn't stop NLs from crying about being unfairly targetted by the change. Compare this change to duku trio leeching. That strategy got entirely shitcanned and yet I don't see anywhere near the amount of complaints about it. Sure, some people lost time they put into making mages, but it was very clearly something that needed gutting since it was invalidating every other leech choice in the game. Pallies got "nerfed" and yet I saw a lot of pally mains that actually play their pallies rejoicing in FM because it's much better for the game when you don't have 3x crash mules on HT. If evasion REALLY needs to be buffed back again and it's impossible to change the forumula to a /3, then just add some small amount of avoidability stat to the shadow shifter in addition to the flat dodge chance it provides. Or maybe it's just NL mains crying like they always have whenever a change comes around and makes NLs completely unplayable for the hundredth time, even though afterwards everyone still plays NL.
It's not the end of the world for thief class. I main both shad and NL and I tested them thoroughly (I almost solo-ed HT in the testing server) before we release the update. I also did an HT on my shad right after the patch to further test with the real players. NLs do get more hits as intended. However, NL is a range class and usually stay on the relatively large platform and only requires a minimal re-positioning after the hit (press <- or -> once) Shad do get hits more as intended. However, I can reassure you that shad are still able to stay on the tiny platform for an extended period of time. keep in mind that shad also had smokescreen buffed (90 sec duration)
There was a whole ass feedback thread with mules and multi-clienting. Why was this not brought up and implemented without any feedback from the community?
I do appreciate staff's effort to create more balance between the classes, but I really don't think this nerf was the correct move. As many other posters have stated, I feel avoidability is a core feature -- and part of a thief's identity as a class. One of my favorite things about playing a NL is feeling like a sneaky assassin who is nimble and quick, able to dodge things, jump around fast... When you guys nerfed mage ults and such, I had no complaints, I'm still a mage even if multi-clienting got a bit harder. But playing over the last few hours, I feel a substantial difference getting hit left and right; I significantly feel less like a ninja (am I even still a thief?) and started questioning if I should've spent all my funds on BM (could even have higher avoid) or warrior (at least they got stance). Regardless of the DPS and all, I feel like my gameplay experience has been negatively impacted. It's simply not as immersive, and it comes down to this: I want to feel like a thief when I'm playing a thief. If NL having higher DPS in bosses is the concern, I'd personally prefer you take a few % off triple throw damage or something, instead of chipping away at the core of a thief's identity in the game. This might just be me, but I also play NL because of the character and feeling of being a thief, not just DPS. All this being said, I would hope that this nerf is either a) reverted or b) heavily reduced. Speaking to my friends in game, I've only gotten unanimous agreement that this was overkill, and many express a desire to quit or seem very upset about it. Just wanted to pitch in my two cents and hope that staff can consider our feedback seriously. p.s. Although I'm a NL, same stuff applies to shads except DPS wasn't even a reason to nerf them, so I'm also confused on their behalf.
Oh we're making appeals to class identity now but when I say snipers/rangers are the same just blue and red, I get lit up. Lol jk. But if you want to talk about class identity, assassin's should not be touching mobs. And as a hyper mobile ranged class that is also the premier attacker in the game, I daresay you're just used to having your cake and eating it too
Please stop comparing NL's now to BM's. It's still not close. NL's still have more avoidability and are still alot stronger. Just makes NL's look like a bunch of pansies.
1) Not sure what you mean by the sniper/ranger analogy, are you complaining that they are too similar or something? I'm talking about how this particular nerf impacts my feeling of playing a thief. Not complaining about inherent class distinctions. 2) Hyper mobile ranged class -- yes, that's part of being a nimble thief. Premier attacker -- well, what is the specialty of a NL if not for attacking? We have no support buffs, no significant mobbing ability, we become pretty useless without SE. We lack a lot of things that other classes have too. So I don't understand what's this about "having my cake and eating it too". At the end of the day, a reminder that I'm just sharing my opinion. No need to get irritable or defensive about it, we all see things differently.
Ok I didn't think I was being opaque but jeez you're really confused, or you're being obtuse First part was a joke because yes, ranger/sniper are almost totally facsimile classes. Don't let that part distract you. Nighlords are the most common, top tier attacker (basically the strongest in most cases) class in the game, you can fly around and attack from far away. You only think you need all the avoid you used to have, and you really don't. Play a shad or warrior, or go make a bm like you said. You'll see NL still have a huge natural advantage and avoid 1/3 all attacks still I am most definitely not being irritable or defensive in this thread or posting wave happening on the forums right now, I like the changes that were made, they were all very progressive and felt right
I already stated my concern isn't primarily their strength or whether they're top tier. Sure, they're still great attackers and I'm not complaining about that. I'm talking about feeling less like a "thief" than I used to. Just wanted to throw out there I do have BM and warrior too though I don't main them. Again, I'm not concerned about having a "natural advantage" or damage or whatever, just that I find it more enjoyable to feel more like a thief (from higher avoid) when I'm playing my NL. That's all there is to it.
Dexterity should give more avoid than being lucky but archers, your ranged brethren don't get shifter or super lucky avoidability. Being a thief you'd want to be more deliberate and agile, not just hope you get lucky, but archers don't have great avoid compared to you. Shifter is huge for the thief class. This is just gonna be a loud painful update because most people play NL and are used to how stupid easy it is. I have a friend that washed a NL to 30k and quit because of how boring it was in bosses. Actually now maybe they'll want to play it lol
The nerf feels a bit heavy handed. I don't recall seeing this discussed in the feedback section or I would have happily provided my thoughts on it, it feels strange that these changes can just come out of nowhere. I know NLs have been a hot topic because of imbalance for damage, but I've always felt that buffing other classes is a pretty reasonable way to compensate..
I disagree that the meso sinks were a good solution to target inflation. There are alot more things affected as a consequence than meets the eye. I believe the game needed meso sinks targeted at rwters responsible for that particular inflation (if possible), not the natural inflation caused by legitimate players. By nerfing ulu, essentially, legitimate players' mesos earning capability were crippled, which is mesos needed by normal players to buy regular non rwted items, and by extension affecting the entire market economy as a whole, which is why you see 100m TT30s, 800m Gens, 1.7b MWs, 20m flamekeeper cordons, and so on, and meanwhile rwted items such as high atk gear, CS WS are still the same price. Stuff that normal people buy has no value anymore, and it sucks to merch/boss. Nevermind the quad ulu mages, regular newbie mages are most hurt by this change, as the amount they get from selling leech is simply demotivating, and they are a much larger portion of the market economy than 4 mage farmers/duku sellers (maybe not so much now). And now you see so many changes targeted to improve bossing which still sucks. Maybe if prices were better it wouldn't. Before the ulu nerf, I was a single cliented-leech seller/mercher/bosser, after the ulu nerf, I simply adapted and became a 4 mage ulu farmer, because the potency from a single client is simply too lacklustre. Before, I could earn good mesos from bossing and merching, now I find merching rather pointless aside from those high tier equipments when someone (probably a rwter) decides to sell cheap. Now, I rather just use the same time to 4 mage ulu. If you want bossing and single cliented leech selling to be good to earn mesos (which I assume is an ideal scenario for everyone), and not 5 client ulu farming/triple client duku leech meta, inflation has to be targeted properly. And also if you want the player base to improve, I believe players are much more willing to single client leech/merch than to quad ulu/trio duku in order to keep up with their friends/other players. Sorry if I went a little off topic, but I believe everything is related as a whole.
The nostalgic identity of a class depicts multiple components including both pros and cons. The biggest bottleneck for NL is supposedly its low HP pool. With a happy or unhappy coincidence, the widespread hp washing meta in royals amended this weakness. Dependence on SE is NL's 2nd biggest con but multi-client + mule meta covered this component as well. If one argues for retention of NL class' nostalgic integrity or identity, shouldn't one consider the disadvantageous aspects as well?
