Another point for shads is that they require 2 weapons instead of one to perfect essentially making them 2x more costly over drks/buccs, at this point there is just no reason to make a shad that isn't a sed mule over a bucc/drk.
It's hard to implement a meso sink that targets RWTers, because currently the only "sink" they have is the 3% tax, and that can be evaded by trading in WS/CS or other high ticket items. I should have clarified when I mentioned apples that the alchemist change specifically wasn't a meso sink, it's a commodity sink that was put in along side the ACTUAL meso sinks of increased potion/recharge costs to keep NL balanced instead of becoming stronger than all the other classes. I just came back from a year of inactivity so I don't know if ulu1 or 2 specifically got another gear drop nerf in that change, but I remember one nerf prior to when I stopped playing around that time and it barely affected the raw mesos the zone generated. Not counting profit from the buyers, ulu2 would still inject around 50million mesos an hour just from bag and item drops. I've done petris and dukus since returning and they're both still fine, petris is about 35million per hour in bags/items, dukus was about 40-45 for when I solo TC'd it pre patch. Minus pot costs, but my I/L is washed to 30k MP so she only uses about 50 net power elixirs per hour. The pot changes (both increased cost of NLC pots, and reduced elixir/PE drop rates in leech zones) were good overall though, as for unwashed mages it could reduce the amount of mesos injected into the economy by likely around 5million per hour, which when added up across 20 channels and multiple zones, reduces the amount of mesos in the economy by multiple billion every day. The market will adjust again to allow for single client mage leech to fund new players. I'm already noticing more people willing to buy skele/petri leech for comparable prices to what they were a year ago, whereas before trying to even find buyers for those zones was a chore and at most you'd get one hour from a buyer before they moved on to dukus. It also encourages mages to push for more gear and levels, since getting to the 145-155 range for petris is no longer a downside compared to just sitting at 130 for trio duku. Boss drops are messed up because of how easy it is to grind them and a lack of new players. Nerfing bossing power, specifically with the nerf to crash mules, is a good way to combat this.
Their single target DPS is far superior than hero/drk. Their multi-target DPS is decent as well. On top of everything, shads have invincible frames during assassinate skill animation and there are no control issues like berserk.
Avoid is one of the feature/entitlement for thief/luk class, for proposing this luk/avoid nerf is like changing the feature of the class, if thats the case if ppl were saying that warrior class have better stande are u all gonna nerf it? N ba has op hs skill u all gonna nerf it? Bowman class have se that last too long u all gonna change it to 30seconds? Yes i do agree some classes needed the buff, but still down to the basis of how each class is suppose to be should still remain
I feel like there's some cognitive dissonance here. Job fantasy doesn't seem like it matters to many people when they wash that squishy little evasive ninja to have 12k+ hp and end up being tankier than a Warrior with the same HP. NL's still have Shifter, which makes them dodge more than any other job. If we lived in a world without washing, where a NL had 6933 hp at level 200, then I don't think anyone would take issue with them being so evasive. These % forms of mitigation scale incredibly well when you increase the hp pool that you're working with, though. Combined with the fact their DPS is so easy to get out that people can literally macro TT and use a mule at the same time, it can get a little obnoxious. I think it runs deeper than the fact that the balance here is borked. This is a 13 (right?) year old version of a game, being poorly balanced is something that most people implicitly accept coming in. The problem is that NL's weren't THIS dominant back then. The combination of washing, multiclienting, and muling, favour this one class to an absurd extent. That said, I don't care that much. My experience with this server is that I pop in for a month at a time, a few times a year, get my fix then leave. It's just funny that people can't even wrap their around why others might be frustrated when the same class has simultaneously had amazing DPS; is infinitely easier to play than its only competition; is the most mobile in the game; all while being so tanky AND ranged. This avoid thing is just extra bizarre to me. Bowmen are immobile, they have the same base hp (bowmen even wash worse lmao), get no defensive skill like Shifter, all while stacking a stat literally called dexterity. And yet, the thought of having them be at the same base avoidance just irreparably damages some people's immersion and connection to the job, apparently.
lol I remember back in 2018 or so when NLs were very op I suggested to nerf them and the suggestions were shorter alchemist, a slight reduction to shadow shifter and a slight reduction to TT's damage (150% to 140%) I'd suggest reverting this avoid nerf and going with the 140% TT instead, NLs are supposed to have high avoid and it's ridicolous to only have 400 and something avoid at lvl 200. It's a core part of the thief class. While the TT nerf would directly reduce their DPS (though not by much, around 3% less DPS with SE) but still keep the gameplay the same. As for shads, I don't really see why they needed a nerf? They weren't particularly strong anyway. Also they are a melee class and do not have stance, so avoid is really important for a shad so you don't fall from the platform every few seconds.
It's not the same as LUK / 3, but wouldn't (LUK / 4 + LUK / 8 + DEX / 4) + Equip Avoid + Nimble Body Avoid make a pretty good middle-ground? Reverting shifter back to what it was would still mean that it is a nerf. I disagree with the formula change altogether but at least it wouldn't be as harsh of a nerf
3 trials with 5 min each in HT Pre-update: 669 avoid 20%, and 30% shifter for NL and shad, respectively Post-update: 382 avoid with 30% and 40% shifter for NL and shad, respectively both miss+shifter count towards as "miss" Spoiler: Shad table Spoiler: NL table Yes, I totally agree that the thief class should have a higher avoid than any other class. However, 71.6% and 77.7% chance to dodge attacks don't seem reasonable to me in NL and shadower, respectively. Even though I don't want to compare the thief class to the archer class, I did test them as well. archer class only have 41.3% avoid compare to the new 54.5% and 62.1% avoid in NL and shadower, respectively. Keep in mind that archer class are supposed to have a high avoid as well! Let us know what you think in consideration of the class balancing. Is 71.6% and 77.7% avoidability more reasonable compare to 54.4% and 62.1%?
ill reply to the shad part cuz im known mainly with shad: did u tried to play on "midgame" shadower? (or just funded one?) means : - avg or below items scale - lvls 150+ (ppl who didnt reached to the "perfect weapon scale") shad have now two problems in HT: 1- shads compete with the warriors on the melee spot, which means we have to equal our dps to them, with the new situation, warriors outDPS easly shadowers (even that some ppl will call their stance "memeStance" 2- SED role, ppl who have blood washed sed mules didnt nerfed and even got better situation now with the upgrade of shifter (which was their main avoid anyway) though ppl that main shads and NOT heavly wash that depend alot on the avoid issue in this role. as midgame shadower player in royals, i dont see any oppurtinity to be added to full party HT run while i cant compete the warriors dps but also cant compete them in the SED role. extra 30s to smokescreen doesnt help like u mentioned - smokescreen in boss runs (ht especialy) is not first priority to self use.. every good shad knows that he/she shall use the Smokescreen to buff the main pt attackers- first priority is to support the crosairs and bowmans. in the end looks like this patch weakening the weaks far more its weaken the strong ,, edited - if staff wants to nerf thiefs DPS, i think could be more fair and easier to just reduce TT %damage (to 140 or 135 %) and bstep and assassinate to 500~550 % and 850~900 % without harm to the gameplay of the class itself
I feel like 5 mins x 3 is not enough for that if u want to get a number that is as accurate as possible. But lets put that aside and ask the more important question: Who's idea was this and why did you think that nerfing it is needed? there is a balance thread up atm and this is NOT what the community wanted. You keep getting the same message from the community - buff not nerf, yet the nerfs keep coming every update. Other jobs should be blanced to the point that each and every one is viable and we have a balanced game where every player can play what they enjoy while knowing the job isn't useless. Leave thieves alone please, listen to the community.
"if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Thieves were fine with the avoidability, there was no need to change. If anything, buff and focus on the inclusivity of other classes with adjustment of contents. Shadowers should have a higher avoidability as it is a melee class and in order to have same playing field as warrior stance. p.s night lords will never get replaced in this version of maple
This exact sentiment should shut this entitled thread down entirely. No bossing NL needs evasion, because they're washed. The problem with this dominant class isn't their already amazing avoid, it's their hp pool, which no person or NL player complaining about the avoid nerf in this thread or elsewhere, ISN'T washed lol. Get reallllll
Longer post from me on the main thread topic still to come, but just thought to respond to this comment first. My first character on Royals was an unwashed NL, which I played to level 184 even after finding out about the HP wash mechanics for personal nostalgic reasons. I bought 0 hours of leech, never had INT above 4, and grinded my way to 184, enjoying every moment of the journey. Among other factors, avoidability is a core natural NL trait which I thoroughly love, and it was a huge factor in my immersion playing the class. There is no way in heck I would have had the same motivation and enjoyment in this journey had the avoid nerf been introduced then. It would have severely disrupted my enjoyment of the class, not only in bossing, but also in grinding and questing. On a personal level, I do agree that HP washing NLs to extreme levels of tankiness makes little sense in the context of arguing for nostalgia, but that is a separate conversation for a separate thread. If HP washing is the issue, that issue should be addressed on its own instead of arbitrary (harmful) nerfs to other areas of gameplay. Two wrongs don’t make a right. On this topic, nerfing of avoidability and detracting from the NL identity still makes no sense to me, especially in the context of how I chose to play my NL. Would appreciate if we kept the issues of HP washing out of this conversation, because (a) it is a separate issue entirely, and (b) some of us aren’t washed and don’t fit into the stereotypical meta-NL mould that you’re probably thinking of. Don’t mean to sound confrontational, just sharing my personal experience and take on the matter. Peace!
As an end game shad I'm certain it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be, shads are able to do a lot of things warriors can't, have great melee and midrange and other utility skills that, combined with other shads, can make warriors pale, without shifter. No, I *absolutely* understand this pov and your personal justification and I'm sorry for being smarmy, I am 100% putting the entitled washed NLs in my sights. But that said, this thread and nerf would never be posted or implemented if hp washing wasn't the true underlying meta factor here, they are intrinsically cause and effect. And hp washing is going nowhere in this server, unfortunately
I dont know if others have mentioned it, but at what point is "avoid" class fantasy enough? Like no joking just curious, because compared to warriors they never get hit, but unlike warriors, every class is able to max out HP and avoid isnt something a warrior can wash.
The answer is in your question, the disruption and imbalance is entirely on the washing fulcrum, the server is making adjustments around it, instead of classes themselves wether this is good or bad, that's not going to be just up to me in this little thread
Why are shadowers, once again, caught up in NL nerfs. Nls now have to reposition more often which is probably a little annoying, but shadowers will now be falling off all sorts of platforms in ht and having to climb back up consistently. Nls get hit -> you just move forward a bit and continue hitting, and you probably won't even miss your skill because you're a ranged class. Other than maybe against pirate boss in cwk. Shads get hit -> fall off plat, have to climb back up (ht right side), or even when we don't fall, if the timing sucks we end up hitting air for a good second. Assassinate already hits so slowly, every missed hit hurts more than it should. With the lackluster crash changes (ie making palas useless), rotating between heads/other parts seems to be the way to go now, so you probably wouldn't want to hit warning on arms so soon. Full ranged parties now seem great, and dk/heroes/shads will be competing for that single melee aoe spot in pt if even available. Then there's how we just buffed bloodwashed sed mules while nerfing actual shad player's avoidability, lessening the advantage actual high level shad players have over sed mules in terms of being a good sed. I have two crash mules, and I was excited when I read the patch notes even if it were to make both mules useless (I didn't like the 3 crash meta exactly, only needing 1 crash in pt would make things so much nicer), but the change in the ht pt meta coupled with this nerf that hits shads harder than NLs (especially when NL parties are now even more preferred for ht) feels undeserved when in the first place, shads were never the best at anything (buffs, aoe dmg, single target dmg) EXCEPT survivability/avoid. Smoke? 10 minutes cooldown says hi My lvl 200 shad now has 441 avoid, I wasn't sure how much it went down by but I assume ~300 (a nl friend lost about that much) My lvl 200 marksman has 326 avoid (as a max level archer this is already a lot more than other non-thief classes), and I get hit in ht about ALMOST EVERY HIT, except as a ranged class, if I don't fall off platforms (which will never happen as long as you don't afk) it's not that much of a problem despite being annoying. Life is pain
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I'd be curious to know too- as I was caught off by this and I've non-staff less than two weeks- which leads me to believe this was done and 1) not thought to be significant enough to cause such backlash and wasn't discussed or 2) was done in the last 2 weeks which begs the question if it was just theorycrafting or if any real amount of testing went into it. Just spitting ideas, if there was no way to hit middle ground as Matt said (IE couldnt do 3 because of client limitations), why not not just reduce the effectiveness of shadow shifter further? Another 10% (so to what, 10% NL and 20% shad?), to my quick non-calculating eyes seems like it would be a small adjustment compared to the massive reduction (in comparison mind you) that reducing LUK's influence on avoid had, EVEN with an increase in shadow shifter. My point was arguing class fantasy, IMO seems a little weird, considering we have butchered other classes "fantasy" by allowing washing. Not that I am personally against washing, but compared to a BUNCH of MMO's/RPGs, if my rogue had a 50% chance to avoid attacks at the highest level of combat (IE high level mobs compared to just run of the mill trash), I would be a god damn god. I'm curious, would people (shadowers/NL I guess here) rather give up HP washing/all their extra HP from washing, or go down to ~50% avoid as is currently present based on that graph? Putting aside this would never happen (people put too much time and effort into washing), I'm just curious what does and doesn't cross a line (besides that this *clearly* crossed a line based on feedback lmao). Obviously however you can't compare DnD and WoW to Maple, and I do not have a high level rogue, I HT'd on GMS with a marksman which had about as much avoid as a snorlax and I just dick around with a pally here;. I'm just as confused by the change as most everyone else.
