This change doesn’t really benefit anyone. new players - now will get range checked more often instead of being able to bring a low skill cap mule to join runs Pally players - less DPS because they need to constantly move and buff ranged/melee members due to the cast range, overall being less effective everyone else - slower runs overall due to the new mechanic As a result, I suspect melee classes will likely be replaced with ranged/single target dps parties who will just bring 1 cr mule or rotate around cancels
The old 3 crash mule meta was awful. This "solution" is worse. Remove CWA and give paladins the buff they deserve
Maybe having the pally required to attack for a lengthy amount of time to be able to cast crash would be better, but then we're getting into convoluted fixes. It could work on a system similar to ACA, where landing successful hits builds up a charge meter, and at 10 (or 20, or 30) charges the pally gets access to cast Crash once. Low level mules wouldn't work if they couldn't even hit HT, even high level mules would have to sit there dual attacking to be able to crash. That being said, it would just put more stuff on screen so I don't know if it's a good idea, since having permanent visual clutter for paladins when you only ever need crash for bossing is jank. Maybe have the charge system there but invisible, as long as it's described well in the skill description and has a clear failure message for not having enough charges?
Remove total crash from pallys and implement the new crash party buff into Hero's Enrage skill. Since acquiring this skill and casting it are not even close to trivial it would basically make parties recuit a Hero and not bring a Hero mule to the party. It's basically --impossible-- to cast this skill if you're not an active attacker. Paladins should get a buff elsewhere and in a way it would not make them mules again.
@Haplopelma my friend, ive saw the commets on awls thread(kinda funny how he kind of thinks of paladins as i used to) and theres severals logic patterns with a few holes that i would like to either clarify, or give an opinion about it. Sadly, not only in this game, in alsmot every game, people want to be pro and competitive, but they are clueless of how things actually work, so they just google "how to be pro", and then once they archieve what they googled, brag about what they are/acknoledge. Same things happens here. Ppl find out that NLs are the most OP class, and they actually think that a 5k nl can beat a 12k pally, or think that any nl is OP, if you have friends that quitted pally(or the game entirely) bcs of that, is too sad, as for me im happy when those ppl say that openly, bcs i avoid to play with a arrogant noob. Also comparing making a pally+cr mule like a BM with a SE mule doesnt make sense. Low-mid tier Paladin difference in terms of dmg, is not that big compared to a similar funded nl/sair, but it has(haved) cr on it, so nls needed 2 clients to be better than 1 pally single cleinting, 1 pre v0.71 pally haved power and utility, and also room to bring even more utility, lets remeber not everyone can open 3-4-5 clients easily, and even if you are able to, you probably will not want to do it for a quad or 5 man., now i will explain how this affects other jobs
One more thing that should be considered is the consecuences this change can have into other jobs, and this one mainly punishes not only paladins itself, also have an effect on the least desirable role in game currently Multitarget, especially, Heros. You guys made this change based on what @Haplopelma said, and he is witouth a doubt the best pally user i met in this server, sadly you guys didnt considered some things that could afect others. perhaps because of diferent mindsets, created a big missunderstanding. Paladins were rejected just bcs of ppl lack of knowledge. Why would i bring pally if i can bring a nl +cr? easy.- bcs your nl will not do that much dmg difference and if you can duo client, and that pally can duo client, he will do a bit less dmg but bringin way more utility. Just washed nls party never really needed 3cr for main body(mainly for pre heads) who actully saw benefited from 3 cr mule meta were multitarget users. 1.- If the skills remains as it is now.- Pallys are not really needed, since a cr mule with stance can fullfil the same role, and even for 50%(or anything under 100%) does not worth the effort, also since theres no cr mule to protect, the only harm that wings do is to unwashed chars, theres no real reason to rush wings, making pallys, drks, heros, and shads less desirable. 2.- If you make them 100% but add a cd, again not really worth since cancel should spam more often now, so there will be several times when you gonna need cr, and its on cd 3.- if you make it anything under 90% wiotuth a cd.- its going to be better than it is now, but i still ppl will preffer to skip pallys for HT 4.- If you make it 100% with no cd.- Youre now creating a single cr mule meta, but even for quad trios and duos party room slots are limited to 6, making the users who need both SE and SI (heros, drks and MMs) less room for an SI user, youre not making pally more desirable, but making SI dependant users less desirable. in wich case you should either reduce hp of Ht heads/zak main body and add it to arms(both HT and zak) or in HT make warning(and related HT skills post warning) show when the HP is lower than it is now(to make them still viable and good hitting multiple parts. The only way to make the current cr viable is to increase rate to 90%+(honestly 100% iis the best thing) and make a cd based on either a certain amount of dmg or even better a certain amount of hits. It would be even better if you could allow cr to work like it used to be before this patch, but reduce the cd time based on hits/dmg, so 1 active pally can do the job of 3 cr mules, if this last options are not doable , sadly i think just revert the change is the best thing to do.
As a new paladin player, I was really enjoying this class until this update. I went on a HT run with a few friends last night (F I died early and no res gg), but I did see major time difference during preheads, where my role was really nonexistent besides spamming blast. Crash barely helped. I'm not sure if I would have made a MAJOR difference if I survived the main body and helped my party out with this new paladin crash buff, but I would have to see this for another time, hoping I would survive the whole run. Anyways, if the change to this crash buff makes defeating HT longer by 10-20 minutes even with my help, I would say this new bust of a decision negatively impacts ALMOST EVERY players because most of them have "crash mules." Even the low-tier players with low range are doing HT. This just adds more damage to the players. Book prices are dropping like my diarrhea. 50m TT lmaooooooo EDIT: what's next, 50-60% stance for warriors? LOLOLOL @patnais77
Just wondering did most people in this thread try being the paladin in the party and attacking or just used as mules and self crashing? I’m maining paladin now and after trying out the HT runs yesterday this is what I feel in regards to gameplay (idk anything about dps and dmg loss and all that) The buff is yes indeed very tiny, I think we all agree on that. I feel 30 second cd is really short, so I had to keep buffing and it honesty feels very tiring to keep going around making sure everyone has the crash buff all. After the HT runs I can’t help but to think to myself the new NX order should be something like BS(mule)>SED>CR/PALLY>LVL or SED>CR/PAL>BS(notmule)>LVL, idk if I’m being selfish but if the nx order was some higher lvl NL in front of me I don’t feel so good cause I feel overworked as a pally with the new crash. Some suggestions is maybe have the crash buff more noticeable when used? The shield on the body is hard to see, maybe an icon above the head like HS/SI would help, larger range and 30 seconds is too short!! But I’ll say again I’m just putting my two cents on the game play
As many players have pointed out, I must agree that these changes to the crash as well as cancel mechanics really made paladins (whether it be mules or attackers losing DPS to buff party members) less desirable and more burdensome to bring in boss runs, specifically HT. If the reasoning behind these changes was to incentivize playability of paladins, the current conditions certainly do not favor them. If the whole "party buff" element cannot be reverted, the crash success % and range need to be addressed. Now, I am not suggesting SE/MW type of range, but this current range is quite atrocious, as many can probably attest. Additionally, it does not seem like party members can receive the crash buff while the paladin is on a rope, no matter how close the characters are. Paladins are pretty strong from what I have seen and heard, and their lack of viability in certain bosses comes from their poor mobbing/multi-target skills, not necessarily damage output or because they can be "replaced" by crash mules. To ACTUALLY "buff" paladins, because that seems like the underlying goal here, a skill that is essential to the current (or former) bossing mechanics should NOT be nerfed. Rather, their attacking skills could use rework to make them viable at all bosses as attackers (same way other melee characters are desired for their strong mobbing skills). The reason people made crash mules was not strictly because "they would rather take a NL+CR than a paladin," but because of HT's former cancel mechanics, and the sheer convenience of speeding up the runs. NLs are clearly the strongest class in many situations, and the reason for people preferring more DPS over other jobs is not unique to paladins. With the option to attack other body parts, people's preferences in having more DPS over another job will not change. These changes to the boss cancel and crash mechanics are pretty drastic to say the least, and I know many players feel discouraged after spending many hours/mesos making their crash mules. Crash mules may be more obsolete now for certain bosses, but these current changes do not change the appeal of paladins either (at least for the better.) Adding elemental weakness to all bosses was a step in the right direction to incentivize more paladin mains, but nerfing their crash and buffing boss weapon cancel frequency do not seem like the way to go. The point about now "requiring fewer mules" is not a great argument to implement these changes. HT runs with fewer than 3 CR mules were viable before the changes, as there were ways to work around the different body parts (similar to how it can be done now.) Mules will always be used to replace other roles to maximize DPS no matter the changes, so why are we all of a sudden singling out crash mules? Making paladins more desirable in all boss runs seems like a more effective change that will spike the usage of paladins. Instead of making all crash mules obsolete, can we do something to make paladins a better-balanced bossing class? TLDR: better mobbing skills to make paladins more desirable in ALL boss runs, revert back to old crash/cancel mechanics so that paladins can be EVEN MORE useful, and crash mules simultaneously will not go to waste. Also, is it possible to share any data the staff acquired during the testing of these changes, and what kinds of variables were actually assessed? Was a paladin used, or was a crash mule used? How close were the crashes being casted, and how much longer did these boss runs take? What were the party compositions like? I am genuinely curious to know what factors or numbers you guys assessed in justifying these changes, since numbers don't lie .
A lot of good points are being brought up in thread, I am glad discussion is happening. The way I see it, this change made it so we need 1 crash mule instead of 3 so far. That is good. I have experimented in HT and I do believe the 50% is way too low. Furthermore, people are still saying that having a crash mule is better than a paladin and that is hard to argue with such a low sample size of runs/ time on patch. Let the meta evolve a bit and tweak accordingly. The problem, I believe, stems from the fact that you can have this buff permanently on for an undesirable amount of % which makes it very unsatisfactory to use. Prior to the change, it required 3 paladins to guarantee no weapon cancel. Now, 1 paladin/mule can do the same with a 50% effectiveness. When I theorized this change, I believed it would still be a 4m cd spell with a 100% chance to bypass wep cancel. This meant that a paladin would fully negate 1x weapon cancel just as he did then. The only difference was the burden of muling. In theory, you would still need 3x paladin/mules to be able to 100% negate the effect of weapon cancel. However, with the changes to weapon cancel and no cd crash, some things need to be addressed. Now, even with an unlimited amount of paladins/mules, the effect is capped at 50%. It is highly undesirable to hit a target where people do 50% of their damage. Therefore, crash is rendered useless since hitting another target is more desirable. With this change, paladins and crash mules are bad, which means, paladins have lost quite a bit in terms of desirability and crash mules have been rendered useless. My proposed solutions: 1) Crash on a 2 minute CD for a duration of 30s (or enough to catch every other weapon cancel) with a 100% bypass. This means you would need 2x paladin to never have to deal with weapon cancel (as long as they casted crash quickly and on all party members). 2) Crash on a 0-30s cooldown with a 75-90% chance to bypass. This allows for constant rebuffing of weapon cancel by an active paladin and it is true that a mule can replace this, he won't be as quick as a paladin main. 3) I believe both these solutions require just a bit of tweaking in terms of range of crash. I believe it needs a tiny bit of horizontal range. 4) These solutions are based on the new lower duration higher frequency weapon cancel, reverting the numbers would require tweaked solutions. TLDR: Meta just changed, relax everyone and let it evolve so gms can have a good idea of what is happening and tweak accordingly. Cheers, Haplopelma
I've tried using the new crash in different situations. It seems not bad when I am solo doing things like Pianus or even in party situations where we don't normally bring 3x crash like Krex. But in party bosses the range/duration/% seem really low to be viable. It feels like using crash is a waste of time in HT, when my team can just move to another part and hit 100%. Hopefully as we spend more time with it Staff can take a look at how clunky it feels to use it and maybe make some changes so that Paladin mains can get more value out of it in party situations. I don't know how many other "party" buffs have such low range.
There's a lot of good feedback but one question kept popping into my mind as I was going through this forum post: why paladins? Why must we all make a paladin? Why was it pallys that got total crash? Because they were an underplayed/undervalued class? I don't think its right to push the community towards the direction you want it to go for 'fairness'. People should be able to play the classes they want and not feel pressured into making any specific class. All the total crash skill did was create CR mules when people didn't even have these mules before. I understand that you want to buff the class, but I feel like buffing it also made it inadvertently harder for other classes that don't fit in already. In a party of 6, your first priority is HS. After HS you find SE for your NL. That's 3 already. If you have a warrior, you try to find SI for it. Now you're at 5. All these buffs were given with the intention of driving pally into an active attacker role in the party of 6, but who gets kicked out to fit them in? The extra bowman since you only need 1 SE? The extra bucc beause you only need 1 SI? The hero because no one uses rage?The DK since no one needs HB? The shad because no one needs smokescreen? I feel like CR has become somewhat essential to certain bosses (Zak and HT mostly), but why must it get a spot in your party of 6? Why can't it be filled by any other class that gets neglected or don't fit in your happy bossing family? I know that a lot of people aren't fond of all the mules, but one of the greatest benefits when it comes to muling is that you can fill the 6 attackers with whatever weird bunch of puzzle pieces you want because you have the associated mules to make up for whatever you lack. A lot of times, it's because my friends had mules that I could join their runs because they had the missing pieces to make up for the fact that I played a job that didn't fit in. Before this change to crash, I was planning on making a crash mule to make boss runs easier, but as I was reading through this forum I started to question why I felt pushed into making a mule in the first place. Personally, I hate warriors and I always end up quitting my warrior. I currently have 5 warriors under level 80. There really are only a few jobs that I actually like. Knowing this, why did I feel compelled to make a class I knew I wasn't going to enjoy playing? Because of how necessary it feels to have crash in a party. Was this the intended effect? Have your players make characters they obviously don't want to play? I would argue that the majority of people that made a CR mule didn't intend to play a paladin in the first place and only got it for crash, but what are you going to do? Force people to play paladins? TLDR; when buffing or nerfing certain classes, consider how it affects gameplay overall because what seemed to happen from the total crash buff was more muling and to combat muling you want more active pallys but consider whether you're forcing people to play classes they don't want to play. If all these people with crash mules really wanted to make a pally, the would've made a proper one instead of a crash mule wouldn't they? I agree that party skills are a nice bonus for classes that don't have OP dps but by buffing crash too much, you're forcibly giving it a role in the party when that spot could have been filled by any other class, which isn't necessarily fair. Instead of tinkering with crash, if you want it to be known as a real attacker, enough to compete with other melee classes, why not let it be a real attacker and boost its damage? Remove the damage cap for example.
I have two crash mules, both lvl 20 stance, and I didn't like the 3 crash meta. I feel like it is ok to expect that the pally needs to be in the party to cast a buff in order to crash, instead of just having 3 crashes rotating around in another mule party. I don't even want to bring my crashes if I don't have to - if only 1 person needs to bring it, that's great. But as the other people have mentioned, 50% is ridiculous and at least in ht when you have a choice to hit other parts 100% you will do so, so people will just forgo crash entirely (and this works against drk/heroes/shads too, which sucks since shads just got an avoid nerf too). Something much closer to 100% would make more sense. Crash buff range also sucks, it's much more limited than hs (I don't think it reaches your ranged attackers on the left in ht if your pally is hitting head B, unless you walk left every 30s..) If the crash buff is improved and actually worth using over just swapping to another body part to hit (in ht), I think it's good that it leads to a 1 pally (or crash mule) in the party thing, rather than 3 mules (which makes it very difficult for non-mulers to join the boss run). Your crash mule won't be useless (as long as you're willing to rotate it in), more non-mulers can now join, and an effective crash buff will makes pallys slightly more advantageous over rotating a mule into pt. As for saying that people do quads won't want a pally over a crash mule since it's easy to juggle for you - doesn't it depend on your party? If you other attackers are just NL and you need a se mule, and assuming you want hs as well, that's 3 mules to juggle. If you're up for it, sure, but that's more trouble than just dropping a NL and taking a pally attacker instead just for the convenience. And if it's a 5 attacker ht and there's limited party slots, it matters even more, a pally who can buff is much easier than juggling your hs/se/si around.
In overall yes we appreciate staffs n admin going through the work n time to make changes, however, i believe most of the community would rather it be focus on buffing class to balance rather den nerfing class to balance, especially of there are plans to future possible challenging bosses update, by buffing some other class that are less wanted, it might make them be more recruitable to boss runs, by nerfing classes it makes them “less recruitables” correct me if im wrong
I tried crash on scar and targa yesterday and it's quite useless, the range is extremely short and it only affected the melee attackers and not the ranged ones. The 50% chance is kinda meh as well
Why was a radical change like this even warranted in the first place? The reasoning staff has given is that it is to promote paladins being utilized as an attacker instead of a crash mule and to reduce the crash mule meta, however that reasoning is flawed as the root issue of the crash mule meta doesn't actually stem from the crash skill mechanics, it is more so towards the availability and luxury of being able to multiclient in the first place. Now i'm not suggesting that multiclienting should be nerfed in anyway, as multiclient has always been part of royals culture from the beginning and i believe we are too deep in the rabbit hole for any real change in that matter. Drastically changing how the crash skill was originally designed is just a very poor bandaid fix to the actual issue. Imo, the original crash skill design was fine in the first place, so i don't see the need to change it. Changing the nature of the skill can easily lead to a slippery slope. If the logic is that the change happened because paladins aren't being recruited as their role to a party can easily be fulfilled by a mule, then it can also be applied to every other mule, and if anything, archers are more aggressively muled compared to paladins for their SE. How often do we see a party running without a SE mule? Almost none. How often do we see a MM as an attacker in a party? Almost none. Are we gonna see a change to how SE works to combat this as well? Revert the change, mule meta will always be a part of royals culture, any attempt to force a meta shift towards no muling is just a spit to the face when a large number of players have already dedicated their time and resources into making mules. Instead, remedy the issue by giving players more incentives to pick paladins as an attacker through other means such as increasing dmg output(remove damage cap please), reworking threaten, etc (similar to how buccaneers is right now, you often see buccaneer attackers and hardly anyone replacing buccaneers for si mules). The way the crash skill currently works does not incentivize players to take paladins as an attacker at all, rather, players would simply just run without any crashes for HT, and single crash mule the hell out of the other bosses. TLDR Stop the unnecessary changes in an attempt to force players to recruit paladins. Instead, aim to provide more benefits for having a paladin as an attacker, rather than reducing the viability of crash mules. `
I'm surprised that so many people just want to revert the change instead of looking at how to improve the way the crash buff works. With a few tweaks you now just need 1 crash mule instead of 3 per ht, you can now bring se/si/hs/sed/whatever mules you like instead of crash if you really enjoy muling. If anything, isn't it more efficient? Instead of having 3 people rotate and try to crash the heads the moment it cancels as before, which almost always gets delayed if you fall/miss/get mp drained/sealed, you just need to cast a buff every now and then and then chill for the next 30s instead of staring at the head to see the exact moment it casts weapon cancel. Crash will also actually feel more useful for scar/krex/nibergen now. It seems like people just don't want to have the crash in party yet want the effects of it. If you want to mule, I feel like you should be prepared to do whatever pt juggling is needed to make it work. If not, recruit a pally attacker so you don't need to juggle. Or just don't use crash, it is nowhere as necessary for bosses such as SE for NLs (30s SE buff would be a horror for NLs). What we want to do is to make crash feel useful again (increase % of hits, better range, etc). Then your crash mules won't be useless, pallys will be useful, less people need to multiclient for ht, (possibly) better efficiency overall. If we tried improving the crash buff and it still doesn't work out, THEN we can look at reverting it. At least, that's what I think.
