Unpopular opinion here but imma just drop it anyway lol. I am against v2w, and from my perspective, arguments against v2w broadly fall into 2 categories: (i) It is highly-damaging to progressive gameplay (ii) It accelerates the growth of money supply to unhealthy levels (relating to the extensive vote abuse plaguing the server) While (ii) has been quiet well-discussed in preceding comments, I personally feel most strongly about point (i). However, before expounding a bit more on the above, I think it is important to first discuss the underlying principle of reward from voting. Reward from Voting While the mindset described above may well have been "ingrained" in this server's playerbase, and while I personally have benefited from it substantially (by voting over long periods of inactivity), my personal opinion is that this concept is fundamentally illogical. Jooon puts it quite well: Let me pre-face this by stating that I am a semi-casual player. I don't farm, daily HT, etc, and I struggle to get behind the concept of receiving unmerited reward for no apparent reason. Sure, it's comfortable and it's easy, but does it really make any sense? In any other game/hobby, we get better by actually engaging with said game/hobby, not by sitting around doing nothing. If I can't find the time or energy to play the game, then why should I have the right to expect to not fall behind? It seems bizarre to me that I've gone inactive for a period of ~4 months in the past, and come back to over 4.5b of mesos (in NX) without having put in any effort or contribution to the game. This segues pretty well into the main issue that I have relating to progressive gameplay. Progressive Gameplay The biggest reason for me being against v2w is the effect it has on killing progressive gameplay. Against the prevailing backdrop of RWT and vote abuse , tradeable APRs enable anyone with sufficient money supply to powerlevel through leeching to 135 easily within a week. There is no semblance of progression here. Party Quests are dead, and training maps are desolate with the exception of Wraiths/MB1/MB2/FTP/SN2/etc - except that these maps aren't even used for training any more. 2nd/3rd/4th job advancements aren't even viewed as achievements any more, because people don't even engage the game content through those levels. A quote from another server's forum sums it up pretty well: "Royals is a server where they try to play the game without playing the game at all". In a scenario where v2w is removed (APRs made untradeable), gradual progression is encouraged because the capacity to HP wash is limited by how much NX accumulated on that account. There would be less incentive to powerlevel to 135 in a week with 400 base INT, simply because you wouldn't have had enough NX from voting to reset such a copious amount of base INT and the subsequent excess MP. If well-thought content changes are implemented in conjunction (e.g. HP gain through various PQs, quest rings, etc.), players would actually have compelling reasons to engage with game content from levels 1 to 135 and still reach their HP goals - without having to wash as much as they do in today's meta. Side Point Unrelated to the main thrust of my post, but just thought to comment on: Can't express how much more I disagree with this view. "A few dozen mil a day selling APR" is a hilarious misrepresentation. Vote abuse in conjunction with v2w are one of the biggest channels through which casual players are being hurt on a daily basis, and both factors are symbiotic. Vote abuse only exists because of v2w. You also make it sound as if leeching and farming are the only viable sources of income on this server, which again I view as a misrepresentation. My first character was a non-mage which I played casually for over a year, and I had absolutely no issues due to the broken ~12x drop rate lol. Final Thoughts Good input coming from both sides so far! Understand that public opinion is very divided on this issue, but am happy to engage and discuss further.
It's disingenuous to put vote abusers and casual voters in the same group. No change should be made to combat vote abusers, if it would hurt regular players. We should rather actively target the abusers- something which Staff can very very easily do, they just lack someone to do it. Andreas used to do it before he left Staff- presumably Matt and Tim are too busy to do it on the scale Andreas was. This is not to say people don't get caught for abuse cause they do, but well, it's complicated and I don't need to be explaining how Andreas did it to make my point.
Can you elaborate further on who are they? Eg, players that log in to daily HT. / Eg, Henehoes how it affects casuals ? I think our understanding on these playerbase differs.
Which "they"? They being the Staff members to hunt vote abusers? or They being the players who get caught for vote abusing? Neither fit what you just said.
Sorry. Let me rephrase Can you share with us More details on the playerbase you shared in this comment, and perhaps your opinion on how will this change from mesos benefits into untradeable benefits will effect them. example; casual players who only come online to horntail when their friend invites them will be less inclined to return since this change can no longer give them 4.5b in 4months of inactivity.
Hi Evan, If you had read the entirety of my post, you would have seen that I am against the principle of v2w, and that my main gripe is not to do with vote abuse. I am not saying "remove v2w because vote abuse is rampant", I am saying "remove v2w because it doesn't fundamentally make sense". I have also bolded key words in my sentence for your ease of reference, hopefully this helps with your understanding: "Vote abuse in conjunction with v2w are one of the biggest channels through which casual players are being hurt on a daily basis, and both factors are symbiotic. Vote abuse only exists because of v2w." Additionally, I disagree that removing v2w "hurts" casuals - please refer to my anecdotal experience in relation to this point. If anything, removing v2w would provide greater incentive to actually play the game. I have again bolded key words for your ease of reference: "You also make it sound as if leeching and farming are the only viable sources of income on this server, which again I view as a misrepresentation. My first character was a non-mage which I played casually for over a year, and I had absolutely no issues due to the broken ~12x drop rate lol." Finally, I can't tell if you're actually being serious about having a Staff role for active targeting of vote abusers. Considering how rampant and widespread vote abuse is, I can't think of a more burnout-inducing task.
Simply, I don't think the majority of people are doing daily HT runs (to hit on your previous post), nor do I think the average 'henehoe' qualifies as a casual player. Casual players are unlikely to have more than 1 lvl 200, are likely not in a 'top 10' guild. They don't have equips worth billions, nor will they any time soon. I think we all know exactly what a casual player is and isn't, it's just hard to put into words. I think I qualify as a "casual" player here (I haven't been a "serious" player since before GMS went belly up and I'm still burnt out), and when I was GM I was more interested in interacting with these players than I was in tracking down hackers (I know, tsk tsk). Tho, apparently that isn't a GM task that's a different bone to pick entirely. Voting for NX for mesos is something that universally affects all players if we remove it, the only difference is the players who are closer to the "top" had a greater time to benefit from this system, and I don't think it's wrong to assume every single one of you (you being the players at the top, not you specifically) have voted, legitimately, for a good amount of total mesos in your "grand total". The top players are also in a better position to absorb the damage from lack of voting to sell APR as they are already, in most cases, bossing ready if not already bossing, have mages to farm, able to sell leech, etc. This is what I mean when I say that removing the ability to vote->buy APR->sell APR for mesos- will hurt casual players. It will "hurt" everyone, but will hurt the casual players more. If we wiped the server (lol wipe hype) then the more dedicated players would surpass the casuals on even ground. That ground is a rocky mountain in the current game tho. It was literally a database query that was done that generated a word doc. The GM's could do it if they had access to the database. It wasn't hard, it's was just something only Matt and Tim can do.
fair points but v2w can't be the worse reason for killing progressive gameplay when we got things like starting from CPQ1 mules all the way to "higher" areas with gearless low lvl mages/bowmaster glitching snipe farm/... v2w helps a bit to afford leech or grind for new players helps casual players and all other aswell who log for zak,shao,HT and get dry run to overcome a bit the loss from pots,att pots... did you make that char without v2w for a year ? evryone has fair chance to vote and get 8k/day so it helps all equally it won't hurt anyone progression when is done within the rules but fine i understand the points made if vote2win gets removed let it be but if the change don't show result let option to revert don't let it like ginger ale and star/bullets price change or revert and add aditional recruitment like (300kils)
Removing the requirement to wash is quite big a big buff for our players closer at the "bottom". Leeching & farm etc isn't the only way to make mesos for end game players, neither is just voting daily. Party quest is targeted for more opportunities for new players / casuals that plays in a lower level content. Remove the ability to vote & buy APR > Gain free 9.5k HP at lvl175. Gains the ability to PQ and progress > Makes mesos by playing together > Sell HP gain potions / Keep HP gain potions to make 30K characters. By not even playing the game, simply voting gets you 8k NX / 40mil daily shouldn't be a thing anymore. Yet, we can still give benefits such as additional pendant slot / x2 tickets or even others that rewards players to vote & play. just in an untradeable manner. Not a punishing change, but an overall buff. This is also one of the issues that our server has. Overworking the admins. How much work has been piled up for Matt & Tim. Content that player are asking for, reading all this feedbacks and coming up with the next patch notes, leading the team. Hundreds of reports stacked up, including those accounts that got hacked, all the checks that are required to handle RWT reports. If we can simply take another out, Didn't the new control panel decreased the work significantly for tim? Poor guy was manually resetting player's pin and pics for months. Wouldn't this help them with their life as an admin quite a bit?
I simply disagree. If Matt wants people to vote, it needs to stay or it has to be replaced with something of equal usefulness. I'd settle for 2x cards as an acceptable replacement. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the current system is great but we have to replace it with something. Otherwise people won't vote- myself included. I've been barking up the "read only access/access to the database" tree for years, and I've been pretty vocal about needing new admins since Mike left. It's not up to me.
Is there something casuals want even more? I originally suggested that this isn't a nerf, but a buff to rewards for the players that vote. An Untradeable that is highly valued, PLUS 8k Untradeable NX. In exchange for this we even ADD a server wide HP Buff to new players & new/existing characters AND a new meso making method via PQs that connects new & veterans, casuals & heavy users.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I like the crazy dynamic washing has on the server- what i dislike about it is how players think they need to wash. I'm firmly in the camp that people should be using HB and that some bosses simply aren't meant to be done by all classes- just like how not every class can be a master farmer like mages. So, I don't think they (APR) should be removed or made untradeable- so I'm sort of stuck, personally. Making APR untradeable guts income for lower level players. The only thing, IMO, that makes it worth it is allow those players to actively level faster. Presumably no easy income means most players won't be able to leech, but I think leeching will be just as prevalent, if not more because it'll become on of the best money makers next to bossing. The question will just become where the money comes from. RWT and hacking comes to mind. Then of course you have the people who boss and have disposable income and will leech, but, they do that already. I don't know maybe I'm just cynical- I'm at the point where I'm doing what I want with little concern to other players. I'm just grinding monster cards and quests when I have time and talking to newbies. I don't think removing V2W will have the desired affect people think it will.
Im fine with it as long as the option of throwing money onto it to solve it is an option. The numbers can be messed around as they please, and im not too attached to hp washing, im jist attached to throwing my money at it being a solution. I actually like the idea that pqs will be profitable as i personally enjoy things such as kpq, lpq and, cpq etc. I like the idea of reviving these for higher level (but please return us the ability to use 4th jov skills there, at least the mobility ones )
In adjacent to the "Feedback Thread A New Way To Gain HP", can @Joong make an official sticky thread on adjusting Vote2Win as I believe this is a a big step moving forward for MapleRoyals. I see alot of benefits in removing Vote2Win more than the negatives.
I believe this thread main intention was to discuss about gachapon tickets, yet this vote2win change might possibly benefits server quite significantly. If @Joong agrees to make a new sticky feedback on regards to this, may i request @GunzGaming to request this thread to be locked as well.
Funny thing is, there are people who've been voting since 2013, every day. And the way I see it is, there is no end goal. There are people with 100B worth of characters, someone has over 1000 ws/cs, you know if you're gonna vote to that extend, enjoy doing it. I don't see anything wrong with it. Voting has been a thing for almost a decade now, the game still feels the same as it did in 2017.
If you guys want to remove vote to win, first discuss the solutions and have those implemented before removing vote 2 win. Right now daily voting for mesos is one of the pillars that royals is based off of and simply removing it without introducing new a foundation to stand on would break royals just like new source in 2017.
I'm pretty sure GM and admin have no intention on removing Vote2win at all. So urging them to do things or create threads on our behalf is a bit pointless. They gonna do what they gonna do. I just wanted the discussion to be had. But I HIGHLY doubt it will ever be done, like 90% of other feedback thread ideas that are good ideas.
The sticky thread is to make an official feedback to collectively gather information from the community
I don't know where you're coming up with these numbers but the other server logs 6600 players/day and 6500 votes/day. Let's assume we have a similar number of daily players but we log 7350 votes/day, so an extra 750 votes/day. Personally, I know 4-5 people that are actively voting but only occassionally online (once a week/month/few months), and I'm 1 of the 6600 daily players. I might not be representative of the the average player, but assuming the average player knows 1 person that votes but does not play daily, that's already 6600 extra votes, much steeper than the 750 difference. The other server is said to not have hackers, so I think this is a good estimate of legimate players whose votes should thus count as legimate votes. I don't like that you're basically fearmongering without actually knowing how rampant this method is actually being used. Without knowing the facts and numbers, you are effectively pushing for changes without substantial evidence to justify it, especially since Becca once posted to prove that players assumptions about the number of hackers were overblown compared to the actual number of hackers. About your first point, from personal experience I've watched 5-10 people take a character from 1 to 200, which took them 1 year on average. If you think that voting for nx is what is causing progress too quickly, how long do you believe the process from 1-200 should take on average? By getting rid of tradeable aprs, which will definitely impede progress, are you suggesting the average player should take 2 maybe 3 years to get to 200? If that's the case would that mean 1 year to get to 135, 1 year for 175 and 1 year for 200? I'll have you know that even at current pace where according to you, one can powerlevel from 1 to 135 in 1 week, it took me 5 months to get to 120s and I quit before I got to bossing levels because 120-135 is absolute hell for your first character without leech. Powerleveling will always be a thing for the rich who can afford it, but for the casual player who is starting on their first character, they aren't reducing 3-6 months of work into 1 week. About your second point, it's true that NX that is gained from voting is generated from nothing, but the mesos that are traded in exchange for the nx is generated from the hardwork of dedicated players. You have your casual players who vote daily and come online once in a blue moon to sell their nx, saving up until they have enough to fund their character properly, but on the other side of the trade is your dedicated player that bosses/farms/leeches/merches daily in order to buy apr to wash their characters. Nx is not the same as directly injecting mesos into the economy since mesos only arise from killing monsters, by looting mesos or npcing equips & etc. Even if the person buying the apr is not the leecher/farmer who is directly generating new mesos themselves, they are the bosser/mercher that provided a service/item that the leecher/farmer purchased. Ultimately, it all goes back to legimate mesos from hardworking players. The real reason the economy is suffering is because of illegimate mesos which is again, only made by someone who is killing monsters but the difference here is that this someone is a hacker and thus generating mesos at an insane rate that is messing with our economy. Making apr untradeable and gach tickets dropped from mobs won't change anything: the hacker will still hack and inject mesos into our economy whether they vote for nx or not. Whether vote2win is right or not is more of a philosophical argument but as long as royals wants to stay in the number 1 position, players must be incentivized to vote. If you make voting something we must do on 3+ different accounts, I would say it loses efficiency and becomes more like a chore. If you make progressing from 1-200 more gruelling and long than it already is (~1 year), well I already quit once.
