I mean that's the point, it would take a minute to catch on. Also why I've suggested arches have a few small party assissts/buffs, but it's in consideration, we don't entirely know what that even means
I don't see them taking spots from better DPS, or filling in gaps (not full parties, for example). This is a group that will spend billions to wash to not bring a DrK for HB afterall. I don't think mages need any help with bossing. We aren't going to help NL with farming, it's a catch 22, why help one and not the other- it's not 2005, people aren't making mages without the knowledge that they are essentially useless in bosses.
Did everyone reach bossing levels in gms? Is that why we're all supposed to know about the bossing dynamics for all jobs? You're making a reference to 2005 so I'll tell you that as an 8 year old I had no clue that people were spending THOUSANDS of real life currency hp washing to boss for hours upon hours daily. As a kid with zero obligations, I spent 2 years to get to a level 70s priest before I quit so why was I supposed to be familiar with the bossing dynamics before making my mage? I feel like people tend to forget that they were all noobs at one point. A player that starts on royals after not playing for 10+ years makes whatever job they liked the most. They don't know about nlstory or leechstory or bishop being the best first character, and don't say that they should. At the end of the day, a game is meant to be fun. Is it that hard to accept this as a QoL improvement for mages? If you're saying all mage players must make an attacker if they want to boss, does that mean all attackers must make mages if they want to farm/grind? Let's get rid of all the attackers' farming moves then because the farmer identity exclusively belongs to mages right? Just because you personally don't see a mage as an attacker doesn't mean no one else sees mages as attackers. Post-bb I heard nexon made all mages able to solo zak, proving that the creators wanted to make all jobs able to access all content. GMs have been trying to make the 'weaker' attackers more viable in bossing via buffs and the 'stronger' attackers less viable via nerfs but don't mages count as an attacker that needs some bossing buffs?
It is about fun, you can do whatever you want, no one says you cant boss on a mage- but no one has to accept you into a party either. I just dont think we need to change core aspects of a class (mages are farmers) because people want to make a farming AoE class better at blssing. Also, yes, thats the point. At 8 years old you had no idea what was happening. No one on Maple had much of a clue. Zak was killed with CB and meso explosion, people wore defense items/scrolls, dexless rogues werent a thing, the list goes on. Its been 15 years, and with vastly greater knowledge of the game available and for most of us personally known, if you make a mage you most likely know its not a bossing class. Also, fwiw the "weaker" attacking classes didnt hold the number 1 spot in another huge aspect of the game like mages do. Its not really comparable. If they want to make mages a little bit better, by all means. Its not going to change much since the issue really isnt mage viability and more the mentality of bossing groups. Chain lightning being a bit better isnt going to make someone say "yeah lets bring a mage with no real party buffs, its worth the exp loss". Edit: the mages who want to boss are bossing. You just need a nice guild or group of friends, its far from impossible, in fact with their MP and magic guard its very easy to survive many bosses.
First that's not a catch 22 situation, as long as NLs can 1hko with avenger, they can farm and move around maps faster than mages. Second, farming is not the intention or destiny of the mage class, you can't appeal to our own native meta to argue that just because it's something we allow and accept. I don't see why this is such a sore subject for people, or why it would be a "waste of time" for people who don't want to farm or leech as mages to enjoy themselves. Currently, you won't be invited for bossing because your damage sucks. That's it. The arch class is a bit messy. No ulti CDs, demons have no synergy with the summons, so it fumbles two more skills at once (and it should not be the role of AM to support paladins), they are held back by elements, and their 1v1 skills can't compete to help parties. How is untangling this a waste of time for parties? It helps the class and future parties, and it would be way more fun to make mages than fucking veg out and farm, most people do not want to play a game like that. Also, if the change is made and the meta doesn't instantly shift to make you happy, that's not the player's or arch classes fault @Shnang, no reason to blame the players if the changes you don't want don't change bossing party meta overnight, especially with just a little 1v1 boost, and you know it won't. Consensus in these threads is always "arch mages are farmers, that's the way it's always going to be" when in no healthy server, even gms, would they settle on such a position for the class, and they never did, it quickly evolved to be a more pro-active, capable class to help in parties and bossing, cause that is the normal, healthy thing to do with your classes, and it's infinitely more fun for the people who play your game. Why even make them mages, just stay as a beginner and buy some land in maple island, have the same farming maps and skills and just send your money off to your main. And this server doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's no excuse or good faith argument that arches intention or destiny was to be farmers, it was the server's choice to hand them that role, so there's no reason to act so inflexible about it when the class already hinges many of the server's issues on it (leeching, farming, multiclienting, leeching due to washing and therefore washing), so appealing to keep this standard is extra dinosaur-like because it would pull arches out of these problematic roles since they are designed solely to support them now. It's not that weird or complicated, you give them function, they will act on it. You give them problematic functions and years later go look at all these problems, but refuse to reorient a class out of sheer comfiness, well, ok,maybe reconsider that. Anyway the bare minimum all these mage 1v1 threads ask is to have higher dpm because they want to boss and do things too, and probably don't want to make an entirely new character and level it to 150+ to enjoy it, and not be bizarre arms working for the meta economy because this is a fucking game, not a part time job. And if you want my opinion there's much richer ways to serve the AM class than pure para/cl buffs, but staff and the dev team seem fairly uninterested in the future of mages on the server, and if they are, it's very opaque, although Kenny's general feedback thread was a good start, I think it was more about farming futures than anything interesting, and regardless will listen to the much louder voice of the crowd who just want to play their part time farming/leeching job (which they still could, with or without buffs, and any buffs that doesn't change the meta overnight aren't any player's or poster's fault for trying to improve things on the feedback forum lol)
Gms changed mages, they also changed nearly every other class, most classes have a mini flash jump, large attacks, insand hp and mp, and secondary stats and accuracy are meaningless. Im not opposed to change, but the arguement that GMS changed it so we can isnt too as virtuous as you think it is. Given this is a server based on an old version there is a certain expectation that stuff stays, reletively, unchanged. The reason its so.. passionate for some players is when GMS "homogenized" everything the game started losing its identity and classes were just different shades of grey. Obviously one change isnt a big deal, but it rarely ends with just one.
I'm not talking about every change they made all at once, and I'm not saying what they did was good or bad, all I was saying was, that it was changed so arches couldn't farm in such an OP way and so that they could help boss, because it made no sense to leave them as they were, so of course they developed out of that broken early 4th job style, and my point was that in a vacuum, that early 4th job style we emulate is still pretty messy and has lead to a lot of ingrained issues we face edit: throwing in an edit here to totally disaggregate all of what I said in association with changes that big bang made. We all obviously disagree with what it did to the game. The point of giving feedback and trying to be supportive of any changes here is in good faith against any similar post big bang outcomes. there are endless ways for this server to evolve forward, which it needs to, without being like gms bb and it's homogenized classes. I believe almost everyone here is on board trying to see the current game into the future while using bb as an example of how not to do it, and I'm not using bb as an example of what we should do, only that even they didn't let mages fold into op farmer, no bossing obscurity, and that is the only point of any feedback I'm giving here as well
I already boss on my mage and it takes a party of 4 125-145 mages 10-15 minutes to kill pap with about 1-3 deaths. What's so bad about a small single-target dps bump when 1-2 attackers around the same levels could finish the run in a similar time, if not faster? I'll mention one of my friends was even appling on the run. Does it really make sense that I need to bring double the people when we want to boss on our mages? That becomes an even bigger problem when you consider our small playerbase. Making mages slightly better at single-target dps will not change its identity as farmers/leechers as long as leech meta exists, but even if they aren't recognzed as 'real' attackers, at least they won't be treated as a burden or a waste of a split. Also, many people have already mentioned that bishops are both farmers and bossers despite not being attackers, so it's only AM that literally spend the rest of their royals career leeching petris/farming stoppers forever. Realistically, everything is stacked against AMs, no party skills and yet they don't even have a better leeching spot than bishops. You're right that it's been 15 years, but who spends their 15 years hiatus reading about the game they quit? Have you been studying chess strategies all this time? Are you still practicing tetris? Everyone knows that gms changed after bb, so if you never got to bossing levels pre-bb there's no way you'd be familiar with the current meta in royals. Also, when was the royals download requirement 'you must know everything about our meta and everything about all jobs'? Was it in the fine print in the T&S agreement? Oh, but some of the 'weaker' attackers do hold very important spots. Pally constantly gets buffed. It's the only warrior with a crash that significantly cuts bossing time. MM at least has SE, which everyone knows is the most desirable skill in nlstory. If these aren't important roles, tell me which job (other than BM) effectively replaces these two in a typical bossing party composition? Hm, maybe I was too low level but I certainly don't remember neo tokyo or ToT being a thing pre-bb. I've also heard quite a few jobs have had skill changes as well? If we're saying that this is a purely nostalgic server so everything should remain unchanged, I'd argue we should also remove maps that don't belong to pre-bb and QoL skill changes because 'nostalgia' right? I didn't play after bb so I won't comment on how it homogenized the classes but in respect to mages, unless there's a CD on their ult or significant dmg nerf, they will always be farmers/leechers above all else. Slightly better single-target dps will onlu help them have more of a role in the game, instead of being permanently parked at petris/stoppers. Why be scared of changes? The world is constantly evolving, sometimes for the worst but sometimes for the better. Moore's law has been in effect for 50+ years, effectively giving priviledged everyday people computers that are much smaller yet more powerful than the computer that aided us in the moonlanding. Socially, the world has become more equitable and accepting of all people. Sure, change is scary but if it moves us towards a better place, why not?
So you are saying Bishops are able to sell leech when ever and go bossing at the same time... So arch mages cannot?
Theyre not "bossing", theyre not doing dps, theyre there as a support/exp buff. Its different. Im not afraid of change, in fact im okay with buffing them (both, one of the old GMs wanted to buff chain lightning only at one point, it was a whole deal between us because it shouldnt do more damage per target as a multi target than paralyze should on single target). I just dont think a buff will change anything because a small buff as to not upset the meta is not big enough to make them "viable" either. Im all for giving them a boost. I just dont see it magically making mages a candidate for bossing im the current bossing scene, thats all.
if the mods are gonna devalue meteor shower and the ice version of it i rather not have a improved paralyze or chain lightning. arch mages had enough to deal with past 2 years ulu nerf petri nerf and duku nerf the only good maps the mages sell leech at. ive quit selling leech i enjoy the class and i enjoy selling leech if there are more nerf on the mage classes i will probably just quit this server... and i know about the idiotic use of naked fire archmages at dukus and the mods their bandaid fix to counter tripple mage leech selling
if you have good friends you can tag along as a archmage? ask everyone in this server nobody will take a arch mage with them... perhaps I/L because chain lightning hits all arms at once perhaps but fire arch mages nope paralyze is not a chain or aoe attack and support class? they gain xp, they get splits, without a bishop Sids would not be resurrected at HT when he dies
I mean yeah, if you have friends, a mage can boss. That was my point like 4 posts ago. I just dont see them being viable in pug runs. Why take a mage (or a pally or something lmao) when theres plenty of NL?
you are right nlstory every class gets effected by it if there is a improvement needing to be made make mages able to solo ellin bosses and pap perhaps and no nerf on blizz and meteor that would be enough in my eyes but i am not NX hungry like 90 % of the people on this server
Mages won't replace any of the current attackers but a buff can allow them to be more of a prospective attacker, instead of pigeonholing them as a farmer/leecher. If mages could do maybe 70% damage of the weakest attacker, I would try to join strangers' parties on my mage and also accept random mages into my parties on my attacker. Not everyone has kindhearted friends that would be okay with bringing in their 2x weaker mage friend, and this sentiment should be obvious from how extreme minmaxing gets closer to endgame. At the very least, half-filled parties with low lvl attackers might consider recruiting mages if they weren't so ridiculously weak at single target dps
That's what I said when I bumped this thread when I saw it got a new in discussion tag put on it. The para/cl buffs will mostly be nice for solo artists or friendly runs, but it still probably won't be enough to raise the status of mages to be acceptable bossers to shift the meta overnight. Their 4th job skillset is a mess, they are still tailored from level 10 to go be farmers. why anyone would be so smug to say something like "I better see lots of mages out there now!" when this buff is almost certainly not going to pull the class up to be quote unquote viable, especially when we don't know what will occur, this is still an in-discussion topic. And if they do get buffed and the meta doesn't change right there, nobody could say "look! nothing changed! what a waste of time!" Like jeeesh. I just honestly do not get the resistance to see arches get assistance. If they are so overpowered in farming/leeching/"making money" to even entertain the possibility of them being stronger but still bottom tier bossers, then they are broken already 1v1 damage is a big issue for them but like I said, they could still fill their roles in parties as pretty good attackers but still bring value in a style that fits their class identities. Off the top of my head Para/cl could be buffed, in a number of ways. Para getting a unique dot, or para allows mist to work on boss parts (since cl is a mobber). Possibly doing 2 lines but weaker, perhaps they get buffed from a short max demon effect Big bang could be buffed to hit two, or three lines. It's a neutral ele charge attack, it could be better and a great alternative for all three mages, and it's a no priority skill, so it would cost investment, but actually pay off. Demons should be much stronger, or more dynamic in their effects (buffs para/cl, short bullseye, dot, ignores m. cancel, causes poison/lightning weakness instead of fire/ice, reduces boss m.att/m.def for like 10 seconds, like a magical threaten, etc etc), because as it stands it's in a really wonky gimmick with the respective summon. Infinity has the potential to be a helpful party buff, and each arch infinity could have different effects, or big bang/para/cl gets more lines during infinity. Infinity could reduce all mp costs, increase mp regen, increase m.def significantly, increase all, or respective element resistance for it's short duration, immune to or reduced damage from 1/1, immune to mp drain etc etc) Magic reflect could be stronger, or amplify any reflected ice/lightning fire/poison attacks to be stronger. Perhaps arches (not bs) reflect could be a party buff but only for their respective eles Meditation also buffs m.def or mp regeneration Summons could be right clickable, and target mobs/bosses under demon effect for more damage Or they can just stay the same, supporting multiclient, leech, washing, and farming cultures (as if it's so hard, or so important to farm anything with these rates) Edit: and to be totally clear, that's not a list of all the suggestions I'm proposing, just a bunch of possibilities to consider or think around
Shoutouts to @Jen123 Literally 4 people shouldn’t struggle that much at a boss. I was the newb who died XD But even now doing my TOT quests. Obvs completing the killing was easy but taking forever to take down the two first bosses soloing solely based on dps vs lack of experience is not fun. Obviously mages will forever be bottom tier for boss damage, but a double line to allow for moments like this, or pap to atleast be manageable with minimal stress and slightly less time would be nice. Or for higher levels wanting to do zak solos. Sure quick arms, but taking hours to take Down the rest of the bodies, if one even dares to do so, is crazy. Even if they had the time no one wants to do that. Being able to do bosses with less pot usage aswell. We already spend probably 10x any other player on pot training (leech not included). Again I don’t think any mage is asking to be on par or even close to other classes in terms of capabilities at bossing, but to atleast be able to make it through simple daily bosses alone, and less stressfully (that whole worrying about MG thing) would be nice. I played an FP pre, and post BB, even chaos. They got over buffed, even tho it was absolutely amazing for those who played, it was too much, and no mage is asking for that. We just want to play a class we like, with accessibility to more content than tele spamming for hours. As of now mages options are leech or sit in fm. An extra line of damage isn’t much to ask, seeing as 12x hero’s with decent gear can take down a boss quicker than 15x+mages with godly gear.
Even all the buffs @Cooler is suggesting would amazing and deserves, but let’s start with an extra line of damage and go from there. I’m sure a good chunk of mages would shut their mouths for a good moment with even that small amount improvement
I am by no means a mage expert but: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/chain-lightning-not-bouncing-between-heads-etc-at-ht.167987/ I think if the chain lightning bounce is looked into, maybe things will be a bit different. Also we should look at how Von Leon ends up being, I/L might have some utility there based on @Jooon 's ramblings:
