Objectional behavior Ban Appeals and evidence

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/ban-appeal.191239/

Let me preface this by saying i am not necessarily going after the gm involved but more at the stance that Royals staff does not have to provide evidence of what you said wrong. How is one supposed to understand what exactly the player did or said that broke the rules so they can avoid breaking rules in the future when the rule have always been open to personal interpretation depending on which gm is handling the situation. The list of potential problem words or word combinations is infinite since the rule is written so vaguely.. Royals is filled to the brim of people who aren't naitive English speakers. To not tell people what they did wrong is borderline irresponsible.. and at best negligent. It also appears as if the above appeal was made irregardless and in spite of context.

I know the person banned. it appears they were banned over anime. How context isn't brought into the equation over a topic as complicated as anime dumbfounds me. The single player report missed valuable context that was typed out in guild chat. Had context been allowed to be submitted the ban would be dropped

I am not making this thread solely because I know the person banned as I've lost 2 Guild members recently to perma bans that I did not make threads over. I
Made it due to Me knowing the context involved in this case and baffled that the ban was upheld

Cheers

 

"You're suspended from school."
"Why?"
"I am not obligated to disclose to you the evidence that contributed to your suspension."

"Alright buddy thats it go into the time out corner."
"But why?"
"Lmao I'm not telling you."

Kinda dumb isn't it? If you have the "evidence" that proved that he was being a bad boy why not tell him privately? Does it harm you? No. No, it does not. The man asked if he could see what exactly it was that he said that warranted the ban so that he could avoid saying such things in the future and you tell him no. Doesn't make much sense does it? If any of the staff could explain why that is 100% ok then I would love to hear it.

 

We can't show evidence because then hackers would see it and figure out ways to not get caught

Oh wait

We can't show evidence because we aren't obligated to

 

I appreciate your feedback and I would like to thank you for taking the time to discuss how the staff can improve on how they handle ban appeals.

To clear up any further misunderstanding: PunkBean is temporarily banned due to a racist remark made in a public chat.

When handling the reports staff always take context into consideration and our general practice is to encourage players to resolve their issues among themselves. With that being said, I have zero tolerance toward racist or discriminatory remarks and will take swift action against anyone who thinks they can pass racially charged comments as "jokes".

Moving forward I will do my best to be as direct as I can to prevent any misinterpretation or speculation.

 

not that i disagree with it, but one cant hide behind memeing to say objectionable things.
i disagree with the context but fully agree with the trasparency. like one should know exactly what he said that got him banned.

 

And for clarification, sometimes the reason GMs don't always provide evidence for Objectionable Behavior bans is also to protect the identity of a player who filed the report. While I can empathize with the larger point, this ban appeal is kind of a poor example given that the player knows exactly what they said and their only reason for asking for specific quotes is to be unnecessarily provocative rather than "avoid such heinous behavior in the future."

 

I really appreciate your response. I still feel strongly that players should be pm'd about the offending phrase or word. Not everyone will recall precise moments when they might have said something. Sometimes people might not even notice they might have said something bad. You don't even need to pm the whole word. Abbreviate or asterisk out most of the word if you have too but give the player some idea how the word was used in their chat so they can reflect on it and change

All love here from me dasha

 

I don't think it needs to be repeated in public. If there's any doubt that it crossed the line, it wouldn't be a ban. Also staff can easily privately message him the logs proving it, it's a private server, not a jury of peers in a public court, but posting exactly what racist thing was said isn't necessary in most cases, but it would be nice to know what group of people was being discriminated against.

 

Sometimes I joke with my guild friends (and they joke with me), to the degree we even insult and say several sort of crude things, but like idk how to explain it we're used to that so I don't see it as offensive because I know they don't mean to harm me and also I don't mean to harm them (my guild friends). I know it's twisted af and may be difficult to understand why we say these things between us in the first place. But like, if you talk to a stranger in-game and he's someone you don't know, you should treat him with respect as he/she may seem that type of attitude like disrespect or make them uncomfortable. You know even when we have freedom of speech you gotta watch closely your words when you taltk to someone you're not familiar with. As they may be sensible and that word may mean something different for them, speciallly people foreign to your native language and/or region.

An example of this, I tend to say the N-word (without intention to offend) loosely between my friends, as our group of friends don't deem it like an offensive word therefore it has no offensive meaning in my group of friends context. But I do know it can hurt people that aren't used to the N-word and I know I must not say or joke about it when hanging out with people that is "foreign" to me. In this context, someone could report me given the wrong circumstances for using it loosely, in the case I do hurt someone with my wordings one can simply apologize and moderate their language to something more appropiate to prevent any misunderstanding.

 

Well, to be able to apologize and moderate his language to something more appropriate to prevent any misunderstanding he needs to first know what was the word/sentence etc. that was insensitive. In this case PunkBean doesn't know what racist remark got him banned cause he doesn't remember using any and the gms refuse to reveal that, saying that he knows exactly what he said. :/

 

Is this something you can back up? I don't see how this is valid unless PunkBean is a repeat offender.

 

All of this is well and good except I still haven't received any pm/dm regarding the "racist" remark which I am accused of, and I've made it crystal clear multiple times that I don't know what its about. The screenshot I refer to in my appeal has to do with the term 'waifu' which I highly doubt the GMs find racist. Also, Sen implied that my sarcasm in the appeal was the reason Dasha didn't share the details of the offence with me. I hope we all realize how far from the truth this is... Just look at ANY ban appeal and tell me if the GMs ever provide proof for their claims...

Additionally, the fact that GMs have the power to accuse, ban AND not provide any proof for the offence is a great recipe for power abuse. Of course, in my case, power abuse is farfetched but the point stands. Dedicated players such as DRAGONSAN who have been around for a very long time are banned without proof, regardless of attempts to clear their name, while players like Shruffy walk free even though other players have provided evidence of their harassments. All of this points to the (ever so small) possibility of power abuse, favoritism and a fundamentally flawed system. I think I speak for many players when I say that the "guilty until proven innocent" mentality is unfair and harmful to the players. We shouldn't be paranoid and screenshot every drop, chat and trade we make in order to potentially prove our innocence when a GM decides our actions were unlawful. With that being said, I know that the GMs have no incentive of changing the system, it's much easier being the judge, jury and executioner rather then proving your claims. I know I'm not providing any solutions either but what do I know, I'm just a racist.

 

Given the fact that the entire ban appeal was dripping with sarcasm, is it to anyone's surprise that Dasha (and also myself) would think that they were not taking their ban appeal seriously? Like I said to wolfinger privately: If they want to know more about the details of their ban appeal with the genuine intent to improve their behavior, they should reach out to Dasha again. I'm sure she would be much more willing to communicate openly if a mature and respectful conversation can take place.

Like come on.

Have you reached out to Dasha in the way I suggested to you? If you have done so and she has yet to respond to you, my suggestion would be to give her more than 15 minutes to respond.

As far as this thread is concerned, I am moving it to the Accepted section. Dasha has already acknowledged that she will make a greater effort to provide transparency with ban appeals, and I hope this thread serves as a reminder for players to make a good faith effort when dealing with their own ban appeals moving forward. As far as the broader topic of potential power abuse is concerned, that is a different conversation--if that is the conversation that players want to have that is totally fine. However, I suggest that players create a new feedback thread, as such conversation should not serve as a veiled platform to discuss one's own personal ban appeal.

 

I definitely dislike the way GM's handles ban appeals. And regarding your case, if you really said something racist you deserve your ban. But if they don't show the proof because "they are not obligated to do so" then I find it kind of doubtful what's the racist remark you're being accused of. Obviously for my POV I'm not sure whether your accusation is really well funded as I am not allowed to see the evidence, but if I were allowed to see that you indeed said something racist I would definitely agree on your temp ban. For all we know that GM's are doing their best job to handle these appeals and I don't mean to discredit their job with what I'm saying here, just saying how I see things from my perspective as another spectator.

An example of how things can go horribly wrong is this one: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/let...deserves-an-unban.180208/page-21#post-1053404
This case pointed out the flaws that were in the older ToS and why it was necessary to make changes for the better to prevent them from happening again. If you don't know what I'm talking about it is worth to read this case and see what I'm referring to.

I think it's worth mentioning it that the current ban appeal system isn't the best and it could be improved somehow.

 

Dasha does not come off as approachable in this appeal. If you re-read it, you will see that he asked about DMing her, and her subsequent response would not make anyone want to DM for further clarification.

Ban appeals are for people who pursue appeals for bans they think are unwarranted. Could be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think the attitude GMs have is appropriate in some cases.

 

That's one of the most staff biased exaggerations I've ever seen.

Here's what actually happened:
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/ban-appeal.191239/

1.

As shown above, Wolfinger is very civil and his message is only inquisitive in tone. He only wants to know what was "objectionable." He even thanks Dasha for her quick reply.

2.

Dasha's tone of her response is quite arrogant and presumptuous in her response to this question.
She makes two assumptions and two implications:

• Assumption 1: That wolfinger took the screenshot.
• Assumption 2: Wolfinger was aware of how provocative the comment was.
• Implication 1: The comment is provocative.
• Implication 2: It is not necessary for her to point out what the comment was.

3.

Wolfinger tries to clarify these assumptions/implications and says again his original request to simply know what the ban reason is. Some of his word choice is hyberbolic such as "avoid this heinous behavior in the future" but it's harmless and likely more out of frustration with the GM's conduct.

4.

Dasha then gives wolfinger a very generic reply that could be pretty sarcastic/insulting given the context.

Spoiler: Some bonus Dasha images here

It makes me uncomfortable how she is too artificially nice when the context isn't fitting at all.

This guy here is perma banned and she's not showing proper respect to the magnitude of the ban. Bom's responses are not perfect but considering he's the one perma banned not Dasha and might have to cut his emotional ties to the server, some people get frustrated and mad as a way of coping by cutting ties. Especially given that level of service from GMs.

 

She has made it very clear in my appeal that she is "not obligated to disclose to you the evidence". I'm not going to beg her to give me the minimal respect I deserve. I don't need any favors from people who play by the rules they themselves wrote.

As I implied before, I think it should be everyones right to know exactly what they were banned for, and not have to handle this pompous attitude of "I don't have to do anything for you" from GMs.

@leodexe I do know of this case. It does seem to have gone out of control but:
1. The fact that it spiraled out of control shows just how much the community is zealous about these subjects and how important it is to talk about them (aka transparency).
2. The fact that this case caused so much drama between the GMs (June quitting, Timk threatening to quit but having his way eventually, etc.) demonstrates the power abuse and favoritism that I mentioned in an earlier post. Also the first few comments on the thread really encapsulate what a lot of people feel towards the ban system and staff behavior.

 

Even though it would likely be very easy to deduce who filed the report based on memory of who was present, etc.? Because I don't think you can have both, ie. letting the person know what they were banned for, and protecting the person who filed the report.

 

So the answer is no, you haven't. If you actually want to have a conversation to better understand your ban, then the opportunity is available.

Really? None of these comments come off as sarcastic to you?

And a clever bonus message embedded so that only Staff members can see:

You can't dismiss my characterization as "most biased exaggerations" and then twist the narrative.

As a general rule of life, you get what you give. I can understand wanting a degree of professionalism from our Staff members, and I can understand wanting greater transparency for players who appeal their bans. However, GMs are not customer service agents. You can't give shitty attitude and expect them to smile in return. I would be much more willing to empathize with how players might be unfairly treated in ban appeals if literally any other example was offered--because I have done so many times in the past. But like I said earlier, Dasha has clearly expressed that she will make a better effort with transparency moving forward. And like I also said earlier, the Feedback section is not the appropriate section for players to rehash their individual ban appeals. I'm going to lock this thread and any ask that any broader conversations about how Staff should handle ban appeals be done so in a separate thread. I'm also going to ask everyone to remember that communication is a two-way street, and improvement requires good-faith collaboration from both sides of the road.