While I dont have much experience playing in the new source, I do believe 2H BW's need a buff. It should be an option, not a stepping stone... Also bearing in mind that the weapons you've chosen are very good weapons for a level 140, so in reality those dps numbers will be even lower. Can we get the numbers without SI, and please use one of the other three elements fire/lightning/Ice, as those are the main elements that you will be using while bossing. Also the numbers with a lower attack pot like an energizer? This is sort of using unrealistic situations to talk about balance. You cant expect people to always have si. Its the main thing that seperates the difference between 1h bw and sword. You actually dont save a lot of money, infact you sort of lose money if you count on all the boss runs people dont want you on. Also since you would have to craft your own weapon and successfully scroll it, the bill racks up. I personally had to perion gacha for what seemed like forever to get a somewhat decent crushed skull in the old source, and you really dont get a good rate of return there. So I wasnt "saving" money, in fact I was losing money. I didnt care because its the path i chose. You also cannot forget that the 2h bw's we make cant really be resold after we're done with it, or its very hard finding a buyer, especially for the amount you'd invest in one. I dont know about this one, you make it sound like it doesn't take a lot of effort. and even if they do, you make it sound like hitting the damage cap is a good thing? Remember that you lose damage every time you hit the cap, making the difference between sword and bw even larger. Making a perfect weapon costs the same for everyone, and its even worse in the case of rare weapons (2h bw's in this case) as you cant just 30% the first slot and see if you get lucky, because of how rare a dragon flame with perfect stats. Again, I think you're confusing the fact that 2h bw shouldnt be a route but a viable option. Whats the point of spending money on a good 2h bw, when all the money you spend on that can just be used for a 1h bw and shield and you'll save money in the long run, rather than doing both... Sorry if its a bit incoherent, but its just a few of my thoughts, and some requests.
Would a possible way to increase 2h bw consistency be to increase the lower number on the STR multiplier range? That way u can pinpoint 2h and not affect 1h? The ecomony side of things seems irrelevant to me considering if 2h BW were as effective as 1h then their price would rise. I don't think the relative price of gearing should be considered in this converation as it would change with the gameplay changes. I don't know much about the numbers other than what I've read in the thread, but from what I'm seeing there aren't many options for adjusting things for 2h bw.
I totally agree with you, using the excuse of 2hbw saves money and all that is absolute rubbish. I do wish the devs of mapleroyals look into this, been a year.
I agree. I like that the Staff had an idea for 2H BW instead of abandoning it but clearly it didn't work out. This server takes their dps very seriously, and a damage loss of 13-14% is too huge imo. The apparent advantage isn't even an advantage because if you consider 30wa shield to be perfect, a 20wa shield or above is actually not that hard to find and comparatively much cheaper with an average Crushed Skull. The scanario of Dragon Flame (DF) being cheaper seems to assume that a near perfect clean DF is readily available which it clearly isn't because it only drops from HT, and Leafre crafting is hard enough that you would rather spend it on something more lucrative like a Claymore. So for something farmable we look at Golden Smith Hammer, which is not exactly a popular item unlike Red Craven because from the drop list only Skelegon seems to be the more populated farming spot. So you have to go out of your way to hunt it for hours on end. I will agree that the 30% 2H BW scrolls are rather cheap but it's not like 1H BW scrolls are any much more expensive either. Also since most ppl know 1H BW is better, they don't really go out of their way to try to scroll a 2H BW for profit, and that means you have to scroll it yourself instead of simply buying a scrolled product. For that much effort for a -5wa alternative and 13-14% loss in dps, it's clear why most people just choose to go with a average Crushed Skull and 20+wa Maple Shield, where they can slowly upgrade their weapon and still already have 2/3 of a perf shield stats. You welcome variety but it isn't working out, so I would really suggest a second look at the state of 2H BWs because the numbers are clearly showing otherwise. At this point I don't really care what buff it is, multiplier buff sounds like a win-win situation, straight increase of WA in the weapon seems to have some issue (not sure why not), and then we have buffing attack speed. Honestly I agree that buffing attack speed isn't very "hammer-like" but really you could do a Brandish with a large ass sword in 0.63s but need 1.62s to Assassinate someone with a small knife. Also it's not like you do the swinging animation with Blast, there's nothing hammer-like about poking the mobs at a faster or slower rate.
Not sure why some of you are comparing 1h mace with 2h mace. That's like trying to decide which fart smells worse. I can tell you they both smell bad. Let us take a look at 2h mace dps vs 2h sword dps. In this calculation I've compared Dragon Flame to a Stonetooth, we should not ignore the fact that Stonetooth has 6 weapon attack lower and requires some dex. mace speed booster: 5 810ms SI + booster: 3 690ms mace multiplier 4.8 multiplier slash 3.4 multiplier stab 3:2 slash/stab ratio averages 4.24 multiplier sword speed booster: 3 690ms SI+booster: 2 630ms sword multiplier 4.6 multiplier mace vs sword speed booster: 17.4% slower SI + booster: 9.6% slower mace vs sword multiplier 7.7% lower multiplier total dps difference: booster: 26.4% lower dps SI + booster: 18% lower dps (Assuming I didn't make any mistakes with mathz.) The difference is huge and the excuse for it being cheaper to achieve, in my opinion, is a rather cheap excuse. Doesn't matter how poor you are, you will reach that point where your mace is just #@&! and forced to switch to a sword. Honestly the most logical thing would be that the axes and maces do higher dps than swords, because consistent damage (swords)> inconsistent damage (axes, maces). But since that would make 90%+ of the heroes and paladins shed in tears, I think it would be fair enough to deal (almost?) the same dps while the damage remains inconsistent. Which would give us the following options: Higher attack speed Higher slash multiplier Slightly higher mastery (like axes) Higher base weapon attack The easiest thing to do would be to apply the same bonus' as axes, increased attack speed & mastery. Though I don't really care how you buff em, a buff is necessary, in my opinion.
Yes to (the excuse for it being cheaper to achieve, in my opinion, is a rather cheap excuse)! u can tell tim that hahahaha. Thank you brother for doing all the super necessary calculations to show the truth!
Or just make maces be even slower than they are right now but buff their DPS by a lot. So this option would become the option of "Yeah you can 1 hit some mobs which with a sword you cant, but it's slow as hell and of course it's not good for bosses"
What would the DPS comparison of the 2H Mace be if it had 75% mastery and increased speed of 1? Edit: I wish he had showed how he got the calculations dps difference. I'm a bit stumped on how he did it
So I disagree with everything in the original post and much of the following thread. This popped up in feedback mainpage and I have a 1h hammer pally so I'll add some input. Adding weapon speed to everything is not good, this trend needs to die, adding super secret xbows with higher speed, increasing some axes, more and more si mules, and testing everything with si, and pitting all numbers against si perfected scenarios, trends everyone closer and closer to that singularity, it's not good for class/weapon distinction either, and there's always another way to improve something I'll also say all the testing and numbers devs did are pointless, perfect situation numbers exist only in a vacuum and have no value for any player, and I think they just serve as an overall excuse to not have to tweak some things Also nobody plays 2HBW pally because it's cheap, the meta is simply too competitive and that just literally doesn't happen, especially end game when all weapons within 20 attack of perfect roughly scale into the same price range at once. 2H hammer is not obsolete because of damage or formula (although the range between min~max on hammers should be tighter since they are also slower than swords, and less stable than swords), but it loses because of speed. But it's absurd to have fast giant maces, so no, I'm against raising their natural speed. So despite maybe landing a huge high end critical, the damage cieling still looms, and once it's in range, all that matters is how quickly you can jump up and touch it or come close, not if you can at all. Devs are convinced 2hbw is fine because in perfect conditions it's only like 14% less efficient, no player experiences perfect conditions. Average the worst conditions with the best and then evaluate them. Test only booster, zakum body 1/2/3 so all regular charges are used, no invincibility, no other buffs (si doesn't always come, se can die or dc) Or don't but either way they're convinced it's fine, just like they're convinced polearms are only for grinding, as if the crusher/fury polearms/spear relationship isn't a mess (it is indeed a mess and not all nostalgia should stay as such) and nobody can boss with polearms, only ultra expensive skis But anyway here's my dumb person input that will also be ignored about the mechanical handicap of 2hbw [from my general warrior feedback thread] ~ so: -"Reverb damage" (if you can KB, splash line of 10% extra damage is dealt, 19k max additional damage if you cap) -5% crit chance -X% chance to ignore w.def (if you kb) -65% mastery -keep them slow -worked into either mastery in 2nd job, or HH in 4th, or both or just natural 2h mace would probably be as simple as adding a line of code that says something like "if KB (kb threshold is hit) then any or all of the following procs +reverb (+one line = to 10% of damage dealt), 5% crit, % to ignore w.def (this also stabilizes damage w/o mastery) but devs basically said 2hbw is too cheap of an alternative to ever consider buffing (despite vacuum testing, which is not play testing) so I see zero 2hbw buff coming any time soon, especially because of the extremely low demand priority (which I would happily argue for 2hbw and polearm users and that folks would use them if they were viable) these buffs would keep 2hbw functioning as 2hbw is intended slow and strong, but with the ability to "final attack" with reverb damage so they can slightly improve their own pace without raising any weapon speeds, and without destroying the sword/spear or cs+shield meta either. I think something along these lines is probably the only way to approach it without tanking their nature (by over buffing them with speed+att, which I think most, including devs, are against)
So, I guess the main take away from this thread is that having weapon types with wider range of damage than other weapon types +reasonably easily reachable damage cap = Nexon made a whoopsie Really makes me wish Nexon/Wizet did a better job actually differentiating melee weapons outside of the average range of damage they did, cuz in reality, having higher highs, and lower lows for damage isn't really gonna change the average rate of damage you do over time, given all things remained balanced. Like, imagine if Nexon/Wizet had actually programed unique skills between different weapon types that are shared by the same job, instead of skills being the same across weapons as it is now (well, this version of Maple at least). idk where I'm going with this really tbh, like, I agree that 2HBW should be buffed in some way, but there's so much poorly designed crap in how melee weapons are handled, there isn't a real simple way of fixing things I guess.
I did, and they are decent ideas don't get me wrong, but I doubt they would be all that "simple" to implement since you're adding a several new mechanics into the BW mastery skill that no other mastery skill has. While on paper these ideas sounds fairly easy, as actually implementing and testing them, I'd imagine it'd be a lot more than just adding a line in the code (if it's even possible at all), especially compared to something like adding or changing item/weapon data. And sure, changing the weapon mastery % wouldn't be that difficult, but as has been pointed out already, doing so would also affect 1HBW damage equally, which would still make Crushed Skull a better choice compared to 2H. From my understanding, there are limitations to how much the devs can actually change with this game (like I remember hearing that the 199k damage cap is something they can't really change). So idk, those ideas might be possible to do, but that's probably only something Karven, Matt, and Joong really know at the end of the day. Point I was making, there are plenty of ways we could potentially address the issues of 2HBWs. The straight-forward ways (e.g increase speed and weapon mastery) present their own issues, and any more complicated ways (e.g what you suggested) might have roadblocks in practical implementation or might be more than the devs are willing to do as far as maintaining Nostalgia™ and all that jazz.
Hard no on att/speed, it's broken and the devs show zero interest in "fixing" 2hbw despite not one player actually mainng 2hbw, or real play testing, therefore, gotta throw out the weird alternatives. Raising mastery, I see no problem with because all bw range is too wide for a slower weapon all around to compete with swords, even in perfect testing conditions. Ignoring weapon def at a % also stabilizes dmg, and I'm sure all my suggestions could be applied just to 2hbw as well. We can't keep slapping speed and attack on everything, so other suggestions need to be made, that's where I'm coming from. Pallies can either be a skull user, or have a bunch of sword options. I just don't see the point of feedback if none is going to be given. Bw att is fine, they can max very high, with awful lows and poor speed. The lows are a bit low imo, but the speed has to stay the same or they're broken, cs is already monstrous with SI, but 14% total damage behind in *perfect god mode conditions* is very, very bad, that's going to pan out in a long boss, say in krex, to like 40% worse total damage than its test result, that's horrible when the next person can pay like 300m for a 140 cs and destroy you.
Um yes and no? In the community Q&A #2, I asked this question, and the GPQ question, which were answered in the following march GM blog: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/gm-blog-march-2021.187413/ "Q: Any plans to make polearms viable to main or for bossing? Or for 2hbw to be comparable in some way to the far superior 1h? A: We agree that some weapon types are not as universally strong as others, in particular the examples mentioned. Some of the suggestions made, and ideas we have ourselves, require game client edits that we have not succeeded in performing yet. As it stands, we have no plans to modify these weapons, or their associated skills." I won't @ them but I believe Shane and some others are gathering info about these weapons as they main them on some of their chars, which I doubt they would either confirm or deny anyway, but to sort of answer your Q, they are topics of consideration with internal discussion we aren't privy to, but very low priority unfortunately, with technical hurdles, as well as very niche meta/low population angles, so that's a quadruple whammy checklist against any inertia for this topic (and PA) at the time. Would certainly be wonderstruck! if it jumps up in priority someday
Yeah no worries. I think this is low priority, just wondering if any discussions since the meta changed since 2 years ago. Hope to see some improvements
I don't have any feedback I want to share in particular regarding these weapons, I just want to tell a funny story. Back in 2014-15, while my brother and I were eagerly awaiting the rumored new-source, we heard that they would potentially be buffing paladins and their weapons (bw's) to help them compete in the meta and become a more popular class type. So we decided that the best way to get ahead of the curve was to stock up hardcore on blunt weapon scrolls which were dirt cheap (cheaper than they are now, even) and buy as many cheap belzets as possible. After, we'd try to scroll as many godly blunt weapons as we could. I ended up stocking up on MULTIPLE gold stat belzets and while my excitement to eventually sell these back to the exploding paladin community stood static, life changes would eventually put my playtime on halt. Fast forward 6 years - and we're consistently playing again. There is still barely a market for blunt weapons and I'm stuck with like, 50 belzets with no way to market them. My inventory is just absolutely swamped with these worthless weapons LOOL
