Hi. I would like to give my opinion. For a bit of background, I am an unwashed shadower (please keep this in mind), and absolutely love this class to death. I can't see myself maining any other class. Before I start, I'd like to thank @nicky and everyone so far for an incredibly thoughtful thread and insightful discussion. It's clear that that this change (not fix, not bug) is incomplete without further adjustment. An Already Existing Issue Previously, before the MG 1/1 change, I still found the Dark Sight - Assassinate combo to be dangerous for me. Actually, I'll admit, I have died from the jankyness in bosses like Ephenia because I could not right click in time or fumbled my mouse. This was aggravating and left me feeling cheated, since I knew that I could react in time had I been able to use my keyboard appropriately. If I'm being honest, I think this change really just highlighted (and exacerbated to a degree) an already existing clunkyness (or problem, if you will.) If you troll through the forums, you will see numerous discussions on shadowers and dark sight, most recently in "Assassinate Change Suggestion" and "Suggestions on shadower（dark sight）feel". In the latter thread, I expressed an opinion that I don't believe stun should automatically dispel dark sight, and now I'm unsure if I still hold that opinion. In the former thread (which I'm glad @xiya made), there is an ongoing discussion of removing dark sight completely (while maintaining the same dps) from the combo. I believe, in tandem with the MG change, one of the following should be implemented: Remove Dark Sight as a requirement for assassinate (while keeping the DPS the same). Allow potion use in Dark Sight. Allow Dark Sight, in any scenario (SED, Stun, etc.), to be exited by pressing a designated key (e.g. a key binded to the dark sight skill itself.) For 1., there is a more nuanced discussion to be had. For example, do we return to the old way of charging assassinate while making Dark Sight optional, essentially providing a risk reward dynamic with this MG change? For 2., well that would pretty much be the same as removing dark sight completely, except we still have that annoying clunkyness (hello my high ping brothers and sisters.) Finally, 3. has an active gameplay dynamic to it, requiring one to press 2 buttons to avoid danger. I would like to give it a bit more thought, but the more I think about it the more I lean toward 1., with some of the optional stuff. For some of you, you may say that this is just putting a bandaid solution on top of a fabricated problem, but again, please go back to my first point about highlighting already existing jank (imho). Seduce Target I can't really speak to SED muling, but the first thing that came to mind was that now an attacking Shad that is also the SED in HT will have to communicate with an active bishop (or someone good at muling I suppose) in order to stay alive. This to me breathes a bit more life into the boss and SED role; I don't think it takes away from it. I will concede I do not know what to say about SED mules, but I will acknowledge that now there is a portion of the playerbase that lost an investment (time, effort, money.) However, we should also realize that this change, again, pushes for more active play in bosses, similar to how one must use a party slot up to enjoy the benefits of Total Crash, a party slot is the cost of healing the Seduce. I'm not saying this is exactly right or wrong, but this seems to me to be the case. Comparing to the Avoid Nerf I don't think we should be comparing this scenario to the avoid nerf. The Shad community, as well as the NL community were both against that change. I think it's completely fair to criticize the staff's decision for implementing the avoid nerf, but let's not be disingenuous, or rather unfair toward staff, by throwing around the sentiment that reverting the avoid nerf is unfair relative to this scenario (damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?) I look back at that situation as a misstep on the staff's side, and a correction by listening to the community's feedback. Let's give credit where it's due, and continue this discussion in good faith with facts (shoutout to @Tsue The inequality of seduce as a primary difficulty mechanic). My Feelings Ultimately, I can live with this change, but only if one of the three previously mentioned (or some other creative idea) is implemented. Shadowers do take a hit to their survivability with this change, and as a shadower main I do feel like my class took a hit to one of its key features. However, I play shadower because I feel its core identity is utility, versatility, and independence. I can farm painlessly (assaulter navigation, bstep+bot mobbing, steal), boss effectively without washing (smoke party play, 4 part, bombing, i-frames, avoidability) and enjoy numerous other niche activities (solo dojo, for example, is entirely possible with chakra ) I suppose with this change we took a hit to independence, but I'm okay with that. In fact, I think MG was too powerful in that regard to begin with, one of the very few opinions I'll share with @Cooler After discussion with friends and from my own experience, I've come to the conclusion that the MG change did not really affect me negatively as an unwashed shadower. I was still in danger from 1/1 before, but now I suppose as my buddy @eddymeow points out I can get KO'd by a zak mob, so yeah. Finally, it does provide less incentive for washing a shad (not entirely removing the incentive), but I believe even with this change MG is an incredibly powerful skill. Thank you if you read my post in its entirety, and while I understand my opinion may be a minority in the shad community, I thought it to be important to contribute to the conversation.
I back this suggestion and think attack and assassinate both should cancel ds if you're unable to attack due to sed/stun/1/1 Both buttons already take you out anyway if you're not in a status effect, however since you can't attack during these status effects anyway, reg attack/Nate now cancelling ds would be a good QoL because a) you wouldn't spam attack here (except accidentally), because you can't attack anyway in both states, and b) if you're not in danger, you simply wouldn't press anything, and could remain in DS during the status effects and bide your time if you choose, keeping the dynamic entirely in intact, and c), they'll be somewhere comfortable on your keyboard already Reg attack is probably easier to implement since it's not a skill and doesn't cost mp, which would cause the same problem if you were just got by 1/1 or mp drained, and a bit more balanced since Nate might be a bit too easy to escape from being locked since it's likely on a very convenient hotkey, where reg att usually isn't
I speak for myself when I say this, I am unsure if other Staff members will come forward with their opinions. I apologize for the poor example of how Meso Guard made Shadowers unkillable with 16k+ HP, but you cannot deny the kit they have at their disposal with high avoid, smokescreen, shadowshifter, and bstep iframes. Having them negate every 1/1 that lands on them makes that class braindead in my opinion from what I am experiencing first hand, and what I see when I'm on my main attacker(s) with Shadowers in the party. It turned them into Sed mules rather than active attackers. My Shadower may be level 137 at the moment, but I am already reaping the benefits of high avoid and I do dodge quite a bit of 1/1's during Pap/Zak. I don't dodge them as much as a higher leveled one does, but it's still definitely above average for dodging 1/1's at my current level against other classes that are higher level than me. The avoid nerf should've been tweaked a little bit during experimental mode. I believe (once again, not speaking for everyone, this is just my interpretation of what happened) the narrative for that was to try to build a bridge between most ranged classes. We've seen other people bring up how BMs and MMs are constantly slapped around and constantly repositioning, (currently ongoing in one of the active threads too) so we decided we would give that a try and see where it would go. Keep in mind, that those who main'ed a Shad/NL on Staff (ex as well) were on board with it at the time. I think it got reverted too quickly. I'm in no means of saying that should've been the final product, but I believe that it should've been tweaked better to try to build that gap between repositioning on any other ranged class vs NL's Shadowshifter and high avoid. Tweak it just enough so that way NL's and Shad's had a reason to use Shadowshifter. Some NLs use 25-50 potions at bossing, everyone else is essentially 300+ or more. It looks a bit broken on paper, but it was executed a bit poorly. 3 days was all it took to revert it. I've seen some people mention that if they complain loud enough then Staff will surely revert everything back because that got reverted within 3 days of it being live. Jokes? Yeah I can see that, but I can also see other people taking that seriously and pushing the agenda for that too. However, with that being said, the class identity Thieves had with high avoid that was being brought up during those feedback posts was a very solid point, and why I changed my own view and have been keeping other Class identities in mind for future discussions. Which brings us to now. For me it was a little bit of both, the crippling mule meta that is slowly killing our market and contributing to some new players becoming overwhelmed and leaving, and the idea of wanting something to be challenging for once for everyone. (There's a couple more reasons as to why new players are most likely being turned away, but for the sake of staying on topic, I am choosing this one to be the main focus for now.) 1/1 is supposed to be a scary "oh shit" moment, not a "oh? *swaps client* *takes a sip of water* *both hands off keyboard*" mechanic. I genuinely had no idea Achilles avoided 1/1 damage, I thought it was just an overall touch damage type of thing because I have never noticed it at all. My autopot was on point, and whenever it wasn't, my health bar would be at 5001 HP. I truly believed Meso Guard was the only 1/1 negating skill that was active, which is why I voted for it. Magic Guard doesn't survive 1/1, we've fixed MP so it scales with 1/1 as well, I would rather go forward keeping 1/1 as a deadly mechanic something that other classes have to pay attention to. (Minus NL to a degree, since they negate most of them anyways.) A solution could be to have an active Bishop heal the Sed. All it'll do is take maybe 10-15 seconds away from spamming triple throw if you decide to mule one. Specific classes aren’t supposed to be mules. That's why we reworked Paladin, and we are trying to bump up Marksman too, and give Bowmasters a helping hand. Min/maxing always happens no matter what MMORPG you play, especially if it's been around for a very long time. I understand that fully because I min/max too (more than you guys probably even know, I have a lot of characters out there. ) However muling is also slowly killing the game (once again, there's more things but for the sake of staying on topic I'm choosing this one for now) and it has been for quite some time. More people running bosses = more supply than demand, = undercut, rinse and repeat. Everything will reach a point where it's been farmed so much there's nothing else to do to fund mesos, if it hasn't already. Bossing mules are crippling Skillbook prices. Everyone has noticed the drop especially those who have been here for a long time. Farming mules are understandable. I think having a few farming Mages is pretty normal, hogging 10+ maps, I don't really know... Seems a bit grey to me. I did my time farming and selling leech from 2018-2020, I still farm here and there but I don't sell leech anymore. Mage's identity is essentially a money printer. Change is terrifying, both irl and in-game especially when you find a certain level of comfort within an old game. Something that feels familiar, and something that resonates with you. Unfortunately, things do change, and things have to change to keep things going. It has been 8 years now. There is only so much v83 content we can release. I'm sorry if I got a bit off topic. Just know that we are actively reading feedbacks and watching. Things take time to settle so we can see and garner reactions and discuss among ourselves and bringforth input from feedback posts, as well as our own inputs as well. Spoiler: Off-topic Rant Please do not take any offence, I apologize if anything sounds targeting. I don't think it'll come across as that but if it does please understand that is not my intention. Honestly, I don't think anybody knows what's the 'right' direction anymore to keep things engaging, while keeping everybody happy at the same time. This is the longest running v83 Server and it definitely outlasted GMS before they reached this stage in pre BB. [REDACTED] literally look at what we are lacking in, and fix that and then release it because we are essentially the model. We're the oldest Server that's been Live and all of our issues and problems are out there for everyone to see, so they make their own and fix our issues and get hailed as saints. I've been here a long ass time and I feel it too, I really do. But please understand that things take time. We are an old Server and if we remove HP washing immediately flat out, give everyone 30k HP for the sake of an example, how many of you would be mad or annoyed because you spent x amount of B coins funding your wash(es)? It's not as easy as it looks to remove something that's been ingrained for so many years just like that. We have a class that has a heal button and it's been a stationary HS and MW20 printer during boss fights since 2014. We have people providing feedback about how they're taking a bit more damage than what they're used to, and still letting that class with the heal button stand idle. We have people providing feedback on the game being 'too easy' while we are trying to think of ways to increase the difficulty/reading tons and tons of feedback threads and trying to incorporate everybody's ideas without either a) breaking everything (meta-wise or certain equip stats-wise) all at once, b) something our current client can do without any restrictions, or c) still retaining that v83 feeling. What even defines v83 anymore...? Some ideas simply are not feasible even though I'm sure the community would love them. Imagine a 25 attack Medal, as a player hell yeah sign me the fuck up, but as a Staff member? It's broken and needs to be adjusted. We have people who hate mule meta because it drives the market prices down, however they're still contributing to mule meta anyways. We have braindead classes that hold down a button and shit out a ton of damage per second. Bosses feel boring now because that's how it always was. We have people who love mule meta because I get it, relying on randoms is a trainwreck I've been there before many times over. What I'm trying to say is we have a lot of different opinions in general; and two, three, four sides to every update all trying to say what the 'right' thing is to move forward. People meme PB all the time, but [REDACTED] had all of its content completed within two weeks, and people over there are still upset, and asking for more. We will reach a point where we can no longer give more. We don't have a whole lot of v83 content left to release. Sometimes changes can be a good thing, and we are always looking to adapt and adjust where we can. Thank you for reading. I'm sorry for the long rant. It was a bit overdue, I apologize.
At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong opinion. The best thing we can hope is for more players to speak up are share their thoughts on this change for the Staff to consider and ultimately make the most appropriate decision. I thank everyone for their valuable inputs and I am glad this feedback thread did not turn out to be a place for memes and rants.
Appreciate the thoughtful response Becca! It's definitely reassuring to know more about the discussions and reasoning that had gone into this. Like I said, I can see myself supporting this change with the right reasons. It was just that my first impression of "this is a bug fix", "washed shads being unkillable", and "inconsistency with achilles" felt like big red flags and left me very unsatisfied and skeptical of staff's rationale (but that has since changed thanks to this discussion thread )
Maybe one day, a Lv30 smokescreen has a 90% chance of preventing one's from being hit by monsters. Party within the area of smoke effect recieves 0 damage 90% of the time...
It turns out getting 1/1 in DS-Assassinate (shadowers main attack combo) is real. And it takes like super quick reflex to 'attack' and exit DS to manual pot. How come this is fair to shadower mains where the pet of other classes can automatically pot them in 1/1. Can't imagine how those shadower with high ping are going through. Getting 1/1 and attack to exit DS, takes 1 sec for server to recognize you are out of DS and before the manual potting happens you are dead already. This meso guard change is putting shadower in an extreme disadvantage in 1/1 as the key attack combo of shadower is now very risky to use. How come this is fair when other classes can use their attack combos safely? please either revert this change or allow pet and manual pot in DS. If you have never played shadower as your main, please don't say 'exiting DS to manual pot is easy'. That's that just some arrogance and ignorance
Manual existing isn't that hard, you should be very used to it if you also boss a lot on shad, it can happen all the time. There's also lots of other possibilities to potentially amend the situation:
If you feel like it's easy, it does not mean everyone feels it's easy. Players have different computers, equips, physical conditions and internet condition. Your experience might not be applicable to others. Could you kindly tell me why should only shads need to endure this type of risk in normal bossing after this change while other classes don't need to worry about it? Why are we fine with THIS type of disadvantage? On a side note, we are playing maple story for god sake. It's not like Dota and Lol which requires high level of reflex. I am personally playing this game for chill. Now whenever I boss I need to pay an extreme high level of attention to the game. And that's not what I am after here
I'm not a super skilled player, and take the game half seriously, but I wish I had a record of how many times I got stuck in DS in 1hko range. It was a part of the experience before the MG update, it was just a risk that was always there and I was poised for it to happen. With all the other perks shad has, it's a small price to anticipate it happening and react, especially when it can happen at any moment because you spam nate. Getting stuck in DS and be in 1hko range, 1/1 or not, was already a threat you had to face. Same reason drks manage/endure zerk, or any class has to pay attention to damage reflect, or sairs have to juggle like 14 different skills on top of ship navigation, or how getting dispelled can mean 1hko for shads, mages, or anyone with HB. I was totally fine with the risk because shads have so many other massive advantages, iframes, meso explosion, avoid/shifter, smoke, and MG, assaulter phasing, haste, steal, and no need to wash. I never had a great rig or the best internet either, you just learn how to avoid danger/death, its the best you can do. I'm in the minority but I do think it's a fair change, equivalent to the magic guard fix where it didn't use to drain mages MP, the same outcry happened, but they adjusted. But that said, I tried to contribute a bunch of helpful ideas to people that are feeling it worse, such as yourself, just to be charitable, because I was lucky enough to not have the bad ping delay others experience, and I'm not trying to diminish anyone else's frustration, but I will say, it's a risk shads already faced, but IMO the burden falls on the DS conundrum, not meso guard
dont worry you a pro shad the next damage will be a miss on you.. I was a shad main so if i remember correct.. I think normal att cancels out dark sight ( so u dont actually need to manually right click DS )? correct me if Im wrong though..
Can quite feasibly die from pap or zak depending on rng.. guess I always need to have an active bish wherever I go?
Would dark sight being changed to client side like corsair ship was recently to remove the ping issue help? There is now no lag in mounting / dismounting ship.
Don't you always run any boss with a bish in the party? Bishops are probably the most popular class in the entire game, I don't think you will have struggles finding one. Anyways, there are still some problems on this such as drk not being able to party up with shad if an active bish is healing, bishop getting stunned as well, etc. While meso guard change is a pain because most shad was used to have it working in a way, I think it would be better to work around DS instead of reverting it, but that's just my personal and subjective opinion.
Jesus yes thank you, my himbo brain has been reaching into the ether to try to formulate this question, but I just didn't know how to ask it. If it's as simple as this to fix I'll have a good laugh, but it seems like people still somehow struggle with learning to manual out somehow. Must be nicely washed. Stuck in DS in 1hko range is not unusual at all and has nothing to do with MG, before or after the update. That's why I think the burden falls on a) attentive gameplay b) DS, not MG at all. Washed players simply living closer to the 1hko edge now, welcome to my cozy home
Yes normal att cancels out DS. But when get both 1/1 & stunned in DS, need to manually right click. So now i have to standby my mouse cursor at top right corner to remove DS in bosses tat does this combo (Pap, Zak) Update: I just died in Pap using Shad (1/1, stun combo in DS and hit by mini bomb). Never died with my other attkers before. The right clicking method is not working for me >.<
And what about laptop players who don't even have a mouse ? It's my case. F2 Edit : Oh, and right click from laptop doesn't work either, else it's not fun. Heh.
