Toad Update -30% EXP

No aggression, just trying to show what it feels like from the average or maybe slightly above average player. I still think its mostly worthless in its current state. Adding DEX to the headband and giving it slightly higher average stats than Specs would make it worth it imo.

 

Can you explain to me why powerleveling to 200 too easily in a short timespawn is a "bad thing"?
Some people here have like, work, they raise kids, they study, etc, they don't have the availability to stick out 12 to 16 hours like the old school days.

 

Yet there are still players that spend 12-16 hours a day. To clear all bosses you prob wouldn’t even need more then 6 tbh. Getting to level 200 should be a accomplishment, not a walk in a park.
Before it was quite a challenge, not so much anymore huh. Esp with shao & LHC in play.

People who have work / raise kids / study or their other commitments shouldn’t be put into consideration while game balancing imo.

Its inevitable where new exp juicy bosses and leveling maps will be released in the future for more content.
By then, a new player will only need perhaps half the effort to reach level200 and opening the level cap is not something royals will do, logically speaking.
Rebalancing will arrive eventually, imagine the backlash if its done all at once.
Progressively rebalancing will fit will.

 

I personally don't care much that toad exp went down, I really don't enjoy the fight and the drops are super meh except the headband (100% drop is great though), the pre-reqs are super meh, the jq is absolute ass, and the maze is annoying, and there's nothing else fun to do in ninja castle or shrine (except maybe hunt kachu mishu and gach, or hunt anego), but I would suggest maybe lowering toad's minimum level a bit now, maybe 5 levels.

Spoiler

I deleted the first part of my post because I deeply hate forum squabbling and I was trying to curb the off topic question I responded to, and I have no desire to engage

 

Congratulations, you stated the obvious facts Captain Obvious, you say they have to do half the effort to get to 200 and that's pretty much a logical conclusion, easier game = less time spent, so it's likely they will reach to their goal, but that doesn't guarantee they will leave the server any sooner or worsen the "quality" of the server
But your wording doesn't explain why this is a "bad change"

Sorry but what does have to do hacker security any relevance in this thread?

BTW, I'm playing on another server which indeed is easier. Yet I see people complaining for the same "reasons" you stated, the game being "too easy", it's only a natural conclusion they reach because after all Maplestory doesn't escape the fact that it's still a game. Reaching your goal earlier only implies that you will spend less time on the server, I don't see how is that any bad, unless ofc the server all has to offer is this "hard" difficulty setting. Some have fun with these rates, I personally don't have fun this way. It would only mean it will take me more time to reach 200, perfect my gear, etc. If I reach 200, maybe probably I would stick on this server if there were any good things but reality is that setting a harder difficulty setting doesn't necesarily guarantee 100% good server content quality. I mainly stayed because of the power of friendship, friends helping me and having fun with them until someday I stopped having fun and I eventually grew tired of this bullshit.

But you know what just leave it like this, we both disagree and neither will convince that either side are wrong.

All I understand from you is this:

I'm amused by your logic
Easy = Bad for sever, bad player retention
Hard = Good for server, good player retention
If a server all has to offer is this, then, honestly, I'm not interested on playing that server anymore. A game or server's quality doesn't solely depend on difficulty setting, it's way more complex than just easy or hard. BTW I enjoy playing games with ludicrously high difficulty settings, but sometimes I play the easy difficulty just because it's more practical and gives me more room to do other stuff other than waste valuable time playing games.

 

Making the game a breeze makes it into a joke.
Players who worked hard will no longer feel their accomplishment, since its so easy now.
Players who tries to go for level200 will say, “oh thats it?” and not “yay”.
Simple as that.

Welcome to MapleRoyals, #1 mushroom pserver in the world lmao. Try the 1000x rates with rebirth system if it suits your tastes better.

 

cool cool thats great and all but back to the original topic...

After going on a few toad runs after this change, I went from receiving 9-10% at lvl 195 to barely 6% in a trio run lasting about 25-30 mins. Yes this change kinda sucks exp-wise but honestly, toad exp was pretty dumb to begin with and so I find that this change balances this out with all the other bosses now. From my personal experience, I found more lvl 200 people finding toad runs now just for relooting the headband and a bit less people below 200 running for exp, so maybe all-in-al, it's gotten a bit more difficult to find runs? idk yet it's only been a couple days. And yea like it was mentioned earlier, there is a lot more content out now compared to back then where you can focus on EXP (example, the exp in LHC is so damn nice wow I wish I started it since day 1) and so I for myself find these toad changes pretty reasonable.

 

And it should also not be designed only to please elitists. There should be a middle ground. I really don't understand why you seem to believe the game needs to be either incredibly slow and take half a year at least to reach 200, or be a rebirth server with 1000x rates. How about a middle ground? A game that isn't too easy for anyone, nor too hard for those investing less time. If you treat this game like it's your job like many here do, of course it will go quicker, of course it will be "too easy". Same goes for any game you invest a ton of time in.

I can literally tell you the same thing.
Think this is too easy? Try a 1x server.

A game should never be too easy, but it should also never be too difficult and annoying either.

Which leads me to Matt's response.

It was heavily in favor of no nerfs at all because Shao is one of the bosses that actually feels worth while. My reaction to the exp reward is "Huh... that's pretty good". My reaction to the drops is "Huh... that's pretty good". Rather than feeling disappointed because an even higher leveled boss gives jackshit.

Without other bosses that aren't nerfed such a Shao, this server would be a pain in the ass for anyone treating this as a normal game instead of a full time investment.

This server is 3.2x. 100m is lower than 3.2x as it is, and now it's even lower. If this keeps going on, it shouldn't be 3.2x anymore. It should be 3.2x (mobs only). Be consistent.

I'd suggest finding that middle ground for all bosses, including Shao. If that means increasing Toad a bit again, while simultaneously decreasing Shao, so be it, but don't you dare nerf Shao while keeping the Toad change.
It isn't broken. It's how it should be. It feels like 3.2x and if someone feels that's too "easy", simply ignore going to Shao, then.

 

It is in the middle ground right now of approx 3-4 months, not 6 like it used to be. Like i shared above, its best that the server maintain the status quo, by implementing new content such as LHC and the upcoming VL which will be far juicier in terms of exp. Something else will be have to be rebalanced in someway or another, which currently is toad.

Changing the headband to 100% drop rate makes this boss way exciting for your luk based characters to participate in, is it a dead content, if anything it makes it more attractive.

In the future where bosses such as ravana or pink bean is added. It will further shorten the daily resets required to reach lvl200, bit by bit.

I’d still wish to see getting a lvl200 character to be a accomplishment, be it to casuals who can only participate 1-2HT a day & to heavy users who aims to finish every single boss a day, to still have the challenge server is providing right now.

 

We’re probably at a point where reworking all Boss exp, nx drops and item drop tables would be good but the community would run crazy I think

 

For sure. Simply why progressive changes, tweaking it bit by bit should be the way to go.
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Imagine a typical archmage still require to sell 31bil exp worth of petri leech in 3-4months, and a typical NL can get 31bil exp worth just by bossing & LHC in the year 2022 in 2 months. (3-4months rn)
Both spend 6hours daily. Is that balanced?
And yes. 6hours is enough to finish almost all bosses with a static party.

 

Agreed.
I can see it from the other perspective here and understand why Shao feels broken in terms of exp.
But from my point of view, Toad is not worth doing, period. It's not worth doing because the band is extremely job-specific and the exp is now very low compared to other bosses near the same level range.

If boss tweaking is going to commence, then I think they need to do so with all bosses and find a good way of keeping all bosses relevant in some capacity.
Neo Tokyo for me has found that middle ground. It takes a while to kill the bosses, the drops are better now and the exp feels like 3.2x. Not like Shao, but also not as low as Toad.

I would be willing to compromise. Shao get less exp, but in that case, Toad needs to be changed as well.

 

If headbands are as useless (except for Shad) as what most people say, it doesn’t make sense to me to take away EXP (for the public majority) and make it 100% headband job rate.

Like what was already mentioned, Toad CANNOT be compared to Shao.

Toad requires more HP washes. And Shao is just so much more convenient.

 

Did you also take into account;

1. Toad duo requires 2 very funded attackers to complete in a reasonable time.
2. Toad duo requires 30m-40m worth of attack potions vs Krex being done on gizer/stopper typically and still being faster.
3. Toad requires heavy washing vs Krex having essentially 0 barrier to entry and nearly no chance of death.
4. Toad has no safe spots and requires even your MULES be washed/high lvl/pets.
5. Toad requires lvl 175 vs Krex 135.
6. Toad's unique drop is only useful to 2/7 attacking classes while Krex drops a BiS ring for every class.

These sort of things need to be at the forefront of a discussion like this. Simply comparing raw exp rates is not giving a full, transparent representation of the content(s) as a whole.

Probably, and in that world, I could understand Toad and other bosses giving less exp, but in the current state of the game, Toad seems pretty pointless now.

 

I was not referring to nerf them all, but balance. Points to consider for that could be:
- Boss Level
- Hp requirement
- Exp
- Untradeables
- Drops
- NX Drops
- Time Investment
- Recruiting effort (avg. Party size)

Your points regarding toad are solid. When I grinded my bm to 200 I would only go there for the exp. Some NL usually took the band and nx was for the one who dropped. I’d be hesitant to toad daily as there are better options in its current state.

 

This is exactly why Toad wasn't one of the most popular bosses before this update, and finding a party was sometimes hard.
You have to consider the resources and the setup required for each boss when comparing them.
So the way I see it:
+ Toad becoming more viable for some level 200s (specifically NLs with Auf helms and RC users)
- Theres no much reason to run Toad just for exp, over bosses like Krex, Shao, HT and LHC grind (These are easier to setup, require less washing and give better rewards)

Only people who would still run Toad purely for exp are people who maximize their daily exp and run all bosses,
and for that reason I think buffing headband droprate while keeping the old exp values would be a better choice.

 

Thanks for raising these valid arguments. As the one putting forward the figures for consideration within staff, I shall attempt to answer your questions based on my own experience:

You are right that more data should have been collected instead of relying solely on the example of a very funded end-game player. However, I believe the point of these figures are mainly to show what the relative position Toad should be in when comparing with other bosses. That said, we are happy to gather more inputs from all of you.

Boss duration and attack potion to use are matters of personal preference. If you want better exp gain and faster run you use better attack potions - I think this is a fair trade-off. As far as I know not all duo runners are doing full apples but that's another issue. The current droptable of Toad hopefully provides sufficient compensation to players' time/mesos cost.

Let me address these points altogether. Despite the level difference, I don't really see Toad as being a more difficult boss than Krex if they are to be put under the same category for comparison. Of course Toad has a much higher HP threshold but to say that it requires heavy washing might sound an overstatement, given all the quests/equip/pet equip added throughout the years to mitigate the need for HP washing, and that bringing a HB mule to Toad is not at all uncommon. Both as sandbag type of bosses, the fights are basically as braindead as holding down the attack button where the challenging mechanics are all absent - it does not dispel your HB and get you into one-shot range, nor does it seduce you into touching distance. A similar exp:hp ratio to Krex is more appropriate in my opinion.

I would think that Toad headband is also relevant to Warriors and Buccaneers at least due to the Str stat. Needless to say it's inferior to its tradeable counterpart in Spectrum Goggles, but isn't a free loot with godly system and slots for CSing a viable alternative?

 

Hey thanks! Despite being critical, it is nice to see Staff engaging and taking responsibility for changes made, even if they are not so popular. Kudos to you and Matt.

Not everybody is a lvl 199 min-maxed attacking class. It would be a better set of data if you got an average lvl 175 or other data points as opposed to a single testing variable. The same point I was trying to make with @Jooon, is that not everybody plays this game 6-8 hours a day, has 50+ CGS, Auf helm, CS'd stat gear, etc. In fact, a vast majority of people don't, and while I absolutely think that elite players should be represented in gameplay changes, they shouldn't provide the sole rubric for how those changes are to be made.

If that is the case, all the tests should have been performed with the same attack potions and EXACT same characters, and then divide exp gained by time taken to get an exp per min estimate. Matt stated above that the Krex duo test was done with gizers while the Toad test was full apple. Using different testing variables and then comparing the results does not good data make. I'm also curious if the duos/trio were performed with the same characters, but that's another point.

The current drop table does not provide sufficient compensation. The headband is useful for less than 1/3 of attacking classes, the NX is nice but requires you to drop an item thats ~10m or so, so you make ~10m, or ~30m if two 5ks drop off that when taking drop costs into account. Besides that, he drops some Elemental Wands which are already incredibly devalued from pouring out of gachapon constantly, some eye/face scrolls that top out at maybe 30m? (Face Avoid 60%), the rest being mostly worthless, and etc that can be used to complete a quest that gives you another face/eye scroll at random. I just fail to see how any of that is worthwhile for a lvl 180 boss with the requirements it has. Let me know if I'm missing some crucial drop.

While the overall difficulty of the fight is not terribly difficult (depending on what class you play, shoutout Corsairs and Dark Knights), the setup requires much more investment in both attackers, mules, party setup, prequests, etc. Compared to Krex, you need to be far more funded, 40 lvls higher, heavily washed OR have an HB mule that also has done the prequest, do a JQ OR do prequests to pay 3m per character to enter, and farm a randomly spawning miniboss on a ~12 hour timer for its etc to even summon Toad. This is all for a boss you can only do once per day.

For Krex, you farm Ghost Ship mobs, kill a 3rd job instanced boss (and this part is 100% skippable if you borrow a lantern or already have one, which at this point in Royals tenure, pretty much everybody does, but I digress) one time ever, then farm some more lvl 85-115 mobs one time ever. You don't need any sort of washing, any additional items or mesos, the map has safe spots for mules, there is virtually no chance of dying, any fresh 135 can go with 0 trouble, AND it drops a BiS ring for every single class in the game. If that's not good enough, you can run it twice per day.

One of these things is not like the other.

Its not. Its literally just worse in every way. Untradeable and less relevant stats. Its not a viable alternative whatsoever. Specs are plentiful on the market and easily farmed from CWKPQ, which also provides a BiS pendant and myriad other rewards from the bonus room. Specs have the same slots to CS. The headband is only useful to 2/7 attacking classes, and only to the tippy top end of them. Niche is an understatement.

 

Wow... -30% exp because "Elite" players were powerleveling their characters.. Jesus christ... the Staff is so out of touch with the rest of the players. And some of the other comments are weird too.

Nobody cares about 'Elite' players leveling up their chars in a Lv175+ boss. People do that in Horntail at Lv155, can run it twice a day, and can get way better loot.

Nobody cares about selling Headband to people. With a 16k hp requirement, the amount of people you could expect to buy is close to none. Spectrum Goggles is way more accessible and doesn't require any JQ/Preq/HP.

Nobody cares about Lv200s trying to reloot Headband. These are people that will initially start doing Toad and then after a week or two and then stop, making the boss effectively dead. So all you're left with is the hardcore people who finished Shao/Krex/HT 2x/Neo Tokyo and remembered that Toad is in the game.

I really don't think @Doo was trying to nerf Toad exp so that he and other hardcore/completionist players can get better headband drop. It just makes an optional boss for players become obsolete and cements the "run 2x HT a day for exp+money" meta.

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Also, I don't understand the Staff with the analyzation of Toad vs other bosses:

I don't recall Toad giving 300m+ splits or possibly 1b+ profits while giving the best exp in the game and can be run twice a day...