strong NL. I recently came back and tried to find some bossing parties and in almost all cases they already got SE mule or found a real attacker instead of me. I am lvl 195 8k clean archer so I would consider myself at least as not weak.
Yes I know I just wanted him to realise his comparison is wrong. Comparison should be done between two classes with equal tangibles if we want to have a qualified discussion between the intangibles. So theres no point in saying "I would take a strong BM over a weak NL anyday" If people claim they would take a Strong BM over a strong NL anyday then thats the end of the discussion. Sadly that is not the case. Show me a screenshot of any boss party that has more than 1 bowman. The only time a party would have 2 archers is if they are friends or theres no one else available. On the contrary, having 4-5 NLs in a party is very commonplace. I would like anyone to prove me wrong. Im 9.1k clean range lv200 BM and I get whited by NLs with less than 8k range. Why does having a higher range matter?
Isnt this how it should be? This is not sarcastic. Isnt it ok how it is this way? U simply just dont need more than one BM but u need more than one NL, dont u?
Yes because I believe Bms are a support class. Thats what I like about it. What I dont like, is people coming out to say BMs are so strong and they have higher range than NLs as though they would white NLs in a bossing expedition. Additionally claiming that they dont deserve buffs and if given a buff, should have a drawback or nerf with it. Some people even compare BMs and NLs and give examples of how BMs are stronger than NLs but to this day I've yet to see any BM with the same gear as NL, white a NL in a bossing expedition. To be clear, I believe BMs are meant to be a support class. I never had any qualms about its dps. I have made several threads on BMs and if theres anything I would like to change, it would be its natural hp. I think BMs have adequate dps for the nature of its class. However this is a MMORPG. The only comparison or competition involved is dps. You dont see anyone comparing how many mobs you can kill in one button or how many medals you collected. So I just want to clarify the facts with people who say BMs overpower attacking classes. They dont.
Do you even read the whole text? Where did he say strong NL? Experience>range. If don't know how to read, how to discuss.
??? He didnt say strong NL which is the problem. Hes comparing a strong bm to a weak NL ??? Is that how comparisons are made? Because if thats the case I would also take a strong NL over a weak bm anyday. Does that mean NLs are op? Sounds stupid af
Yea so he means NL's range doesn't mean everything. Imagine a 10k range NL but has a bad game knowledge, can we say that NL is strong? LOL
Ok I think you are addressing a different point. I am talking about his point of "Archers have highest (literal) range, more than NLs" Im saying that range dont matter. If anything, the distance between the bosses just mean phoenix cant attack thats all
I am not referring to damage range but if you are addressing damage range, then I would still say a 10k dmg range NL is proficient at bossing (most) too. I dont play NL so I am not familiar with its mechanics but apart from being a dps class what do NLs do utility wise? Asking as a genuine form of curiosity because I dont play NL and I dont want to give unqualified comments about NL without due diligence
the argument goes beyond this, but at least IMO, it depends on the pt config, but the answer usually is a BIG FU#&ING YES, ive seen ppl not getting this, but sometimes it doesnt matter to be stronger by yourself....if you make everyone a tiny bit stronger it can be better, last runs ive runned with just nls i really missed harmstring...not only in auf, its hella usefull in dunas(both, but mainly v2) too, not to count theres some other bosses where harmstring might help too...
it doesnt make sense to buff anything as it only depends on all of you guys using multi clients. it is the only problem here nothing more. no restrictions will help neither as always. people have to feel it - you cannot force it over anybody. Just as in real life! you would need a server where it is allowed to multi client because of - we get it its an old game - the scarse play numbers; and despite of that fact people not abusing it like currently allmost everyone is doing. this led to a destruction of the integrity of the player base and makes a MMORPG a dead MMORPG. It does not matter how you buff archers it will not revive anything when in the same time allmost everyone is abusing their environment like in real life as well .. Edit: for example why should people have me in their cwpq trio when I am just a brick attached to their greedy feet? They would rather let 2 boxes vanish each instead of sharing a potential 10 att cape with some random retarded SE mule
you can look this from another POV, its true you have only 1 room for a SE provider(altought i really want to play with a real BM+MM some day, just to check) but you really NEED them(or at least want them really bad) meanwhile you can have as much NLs as you can, but...lets be honest..in the current days you really NEED a nl? i will have a shit ton replies about this... but at least IMO...no. an NL is currently a QoL job in some cases, in auf at least, ive runned with bm+2nls vs bm+2 shads for example and despite the run is indeed faster with 2nls, is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more confortable with 2 shads(can be traded with some other jobs depending on the config)...and the same can be said between BM+NL vs 2nl+SE mule. If Corsair vs Nl has showed us something is that Confort>DPS, and not mule Bms now provide confort at some places... Range is another pointless discussion since its a metter to meassure your dmg with your own skills, not to be compared with other jobs...if things were like you mention then we should buff warriors bcs a 9k range BM can outdmg easily a 11k range warrior...heck, buff Drks bcs a 11k range hero can outdmg a 12k drk...., If i have to be more clear, ranges are like grades on different country schools some meassure from 0 to 10, some from 0 to 100, some from 0-20 etc, you have to make an equivalence, not directly compare... you know what i mean?
I actually understand this because im very grateful for the hamstring update on bosses. Saves a lot of time in bossing or even apq for everyone which makes our support play style even better. But I like to bri g the discussion back to what OP aas truly asking for, which is a buff to archer dps. I personally dont care for dps because im a casual but my qualms is on players saying bm are more op than NLs because they really arent. Strong well rounded class, absolutely. Better than NLs? Im afraid not.
I agree with the damage range discussion. The whole point of me bringing that up was to reference the dps comparison. In bossing parties there is no doubt players want fast runs because why would anyone want slow runs. Ths means they consider damage range and fact of the matter is, no one really asks BMs for their range. Its more "You're SE? Come" And different classes have different ease of getting damage range. I hope I did not confuse anyone by bringing this up. I wanted to bring across the point that if anyone is intending to play BM for reasons other than love for the class' identity, they will not enjoy it as much as they expect to. Going back to the comment, there are indeed many variations for different scenarios. Example, 2 shads for Dojo would ensure SS for every round's Pap boss. Thats more efficient than having 2 NLs. But OP referred to a buff in archer's dps because it pales in comparison with NL. I think Archers are in a good place for dps but if push comes to shove and people had to compare bm with nl, bm would lose even with better gear. I definitely do not question the value BMs bring to the party. Im a BM myself. But maplestory is an MMORPG and what most people who are committed to the min-max grind care about in the end is competition and dps.
I might have phrased my question badly. What I meant to ask was.. in a party with already one bm and one nl, would people prefer taking one more bm or one more nl? I think everyone would answer NL. ps: I really enjoy seeing your replies because they actually show understanding of issues beyond just numbers. Not many people consider variables and intangible factors and its frustrating to discuss a value of a class to others when we are playing a mmorpg pivoted at dps min-maxing
How strong is op asking BM/MM to be? Like NL level strong? People asking for archer buff all the time (understandable for MM), so they get buffed, then they ask for more. Also I disagree with MM being stronger than BM with SI. MM is the mobbing/crowd control branch with decent single target dmg while BM is the single target branch with iffy mobbing dmg. I think BM and MM is good in their current state. One buff I’d ask for is for piercing shot not to be effected by close range xbow wacking,
TBH, i would need to understand your mindset to not misunderstand you, what do you consider OP?, can we agree that is a concept that is different for every person? I think thats fine. But we all should keep that in mind that our personal opinion is not a ultimate fact(not telling this to you only, more in general) What i say is that, theres several situations where, if i have to choose between a strong NL vs a Strong BM, i will pick the bm, not every time ofc, it depends on what i have, but those situations exist, it woudlnt be fair that Bms suddenly become better than Nls in every single situation, but currently, thay can be better, or can call it "More OP"... no one can say that they will deal more dmg than nls, but if they buff everyone the end result can be as good if not better....
I dont want BMs to be stronger than NLs. Im just saying NLs are stronger as a dps class atm and I am fine with that. I just dont want people to say BMs are stronger than NLs because thats not true. Thats the reason why I mentioned a 9k dmg range bm being whited by a 8k or less NL. Because dmg range dont matter since it varies between classes. Its the dps calc people should consider and in terms of that, NLs are stronger in boss expedition runs Thats all im saying OP: Original Post
Yessss I have been saying this many times. BMs do not need a buff. Which is why I got tilted when Staff gave us a 6 att boost but reduced our QOL in Soul Arrow. To me it seemed like they were fixing smth that was not broken and as a by product, reduced our QOL And it would be selfish of me to want a revert because archers were getting used to the 6att buff bonus and it wouldnt be nice to take that away from them. Thats why i suggested keeping the buff but reverting soul arrow.
LOL, ofc we cannot ask for range, bcs we need them, ppl look for bms mainly for the buff and now the QoL tehy bring to the squad(wich not only lead to more chill runs also buff several jobs DPS, SE mainly for Nls but you have to see what a shad/paladin is capable to do when the boss is slow), but its not like we dont care LOL, ofc we would prefffer a strong BM...but if you dont have one..then what? You just proved yourself wrong witouth notice it, ive got tons of questions regarding of "what job pick as a main" for years now, and rn every job has a niche player...I agree that with more SE mules currently the impact of this have reduced over the years , but the fact that this question "You're SE? Come" still exist makes SE providers the best jobs for ppl who are afraid of rejection, believe me, weak Nls are(almost) always useless, and even some strong ones are so bad at playing(yes, i know its surprising to play an NL wrong, but theres ppl like that) that still get rejected...., insecure ppl will benefit more of an BM than an nl when theyre new for shure...even if you dont care at all at Bm playstyle... You just said youre a casual player, and believe me, youre not the only one, not to count theres ppl like me, who, sometimes preffer speed, but sometimes preffer confort #confortteam, im no one to advice you, but can I ask you to change "all people" to "most ppl i know"? seems silly, but your tendency to generalize hurts your arguments bad, bcs at the end of the day, i know what you try to say, and you have some fair points ... LOL, if you put it like that, OFC, doesnt seem all too fair, lemme put it another situation that can show another POV: only 1 more slot for someone no SE provider(at auf/dunas2): NL+se mule or Actual BM, asks the nl "Is your BM bloodwashed or can atack? has harmstring full?" if its bloodwashed, didnt rised harm Or person just dont want to duo atack, several ppl including me will pick the Bm....(unless the difference in fundings/experience is huge, but thats a different thing) Didnt said stronger either, or said that you said that...the word i used was better...
