HP Gain Make HP washing optional, not mandatory

Sorry if a little off topic here. Auf only hits ~9.5k unless you run into her (with skills you can avoid the 17k touch damage). So your hp should be enough for a service!

 

So 2x magic Attack is Not possible during sed ?

 

I am not an expert in selling auf but I am certain the seller knows more than me in terms of keeping the buyer alive.

 

Just curious as my BM died quite alot with <19k in Auf. Back then i didnt know how to record to check what caused the death. Generally i see alot of ppl saying 17k would be enough so i just wanna know

 

Gonna quote myself from another thread, but TLDR, saying "just bring HB" is a tired old argument that relies on poor design to be effective (and I don't mean to single you out, I see this everywhere)

EDIT: Fun fact, another server that seemingly came out of nowhere somewhat recently actually took my boss coin idea. At least I know someone is reading this shit lmfao.

 

Game design of Maple is flawed when it specifically, purposely designed the Bosses to deal more damage than the HP capacity naturally gained throughout levelling.
I mean, what kind of Devs would develop a game that hurts players?
Oh. I forgot its NEXON, who only cares about milking money out of its players. It got worst or was already bad when they did not attempt to fix the APR-HP washing bug. It is a bug, just refused to be fixed and now it's a feature.

HP washing SHOULD NOT have been necessary. As a SE myself who only started washing at lv80, doing double-washing with 160 base INT until lv185, this game is fucking BROKEN. I do not appreciate HP washing at all, and I do not want new players to suffer as I did. It is NOT delightful, and just plain agony to continue participating in further game content (Horntail, big foot, toad, Ninja, Pianus, Neo tokyo bosses).

 

Admins said washing was not necessary back in 2015-2016 when HT was still "new" and were wrong about it then. Admins continue to say washing is optional now and are still wrong about it.
Relying on HB back then was a joke when 20-30% of people would gfx crash during HT, and if your DK was the one to dc, that meant anyone relying on it was fucked. Relying on it now for any boss like HT/Toad/Shao/Auf is still another unnecessary risk added on because you're relying on the DK to be skilled, the DK to not be deadweight because he can't effectively zerk (toad/auf are almost impossible to zerk at), the DK to not die multiple times (even skilled DKs die regularly because it's so much work to manually pot and one fuck up kills you), to not get hit by dispel and a strong attack immediately after (HT heads, dark wyverns, and auf in a nutshell especially with seduce). And you're still hoping that the DK doesn't randomly crash for any reason, whether it's a power or internet outage, a client crash, a blue screen, anything, because for some reason in anno domini 2021 Royals still has no boss rewarper when every other server has had them for years.
That's a lot of risk involved and a lot of hoops you have to jump through when setting up a party just to keep one unwashed person alive, when you already want a bishop, plus likely a paladin, plus maybe a SI because you have a paladin who likely needs it, and maybe you'll also want SE so a good well balanced party is going to already be nearly full.

The issue with all these alternatives to HP washing is that they don't contribute nearly enough individually, and even in tandem they don't get there without normal washing, or are clunky to use. Extra base HP for classes like archers/nls was good. The 500/1k HP water of life quest is good because it doesn't take TOO much grinding to get and once you have it, it's a permanent upgrade that doesn't conflict with your gear, but it should be doable on mages now that many bishops are washing just to be able to survive Auf. The 10-20 hp repeatable quest is a joke. It accrues far too slowly, especially once you hit the 1/day cap. It requires spending time accomplishing nothing EXCEPT gaining tiny amounts of health. Traditional HP washing sucks but it's done much faster and simultaneously with levelling up or hunting gear/cards. Speaking of cards for HP, the medal is nice, but almost a luxury because it takes approximately 100-150 hours to complete the medal if you're just grinding it out specifically. Done piecemeal it's more managable, and I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you commit to it early, but for most people it caps at 500 hp/mp at the 250 card medal. If you just sold leech for 150 hours you'd be able to fully wash a ranged character with ease. It's not bad though. Pet equips are janky and this is one where though it's certainly viable to slap a few hundred HP on 3 pets at once, most people GREATLY prefer the quality of life of having speed/jump, and most people like to stay at 1 pet for whatever reason.

Really, the main issue is that you've increased the HP required with new content. On old source it was about 8k IIRC to survive HT. Now it's ~9.8k to survive past legs and tail. Still reasonable. But Shao is 12k, toad is about 16k, and auf is anywhere from 19k to 30k depending on who you ask and how safe you want to be. I'd say 19k is the bare minimum for ranged classes, not just to survive royal guard touch, but also to survive seduce into double ranged blast. Why was her blast damage increased from 8.5k to 9.5k? I don't know. But now you need 19k+ to survive a double blast, or ~27k to survive touch+blast, which is important for any melee class. Bishops often get fucked by the minis, since they cast screen wide dispel and combined with seduce, means you get oneshot without any options available if it happens multiple times and your will is down. So now bishes are often washing to 10k just to safely auf, but the only means for them to wash is to slam a million APRs and if they don't start double washing MP in their 150s-160s, they get fucked.

So the point I'm making is washing is still mandatory, and it still sucks. But why does it really suck, is it the cost? Well yes, needing to drop anywhere from 5 to 15 billion on APRs depending on your class is shit design. But more than that, it also prevents you from playing a class before 150. What I mean is if you want to wash a BM or sair or NL to 30k HP, you need to pump int starting at level 5, you need to get to ~500 base INT, and you need to sit on 500 INT for another 30-40 levels while you doublewash your MP pool high enough. Even at the end, if you take points out of INT but keep your MP pool high because you can't or don't want to pony up the last 10bil to turn that MP into HP, you're still not doing anything with that character except getting leeched through the entirety of your first 150 levels. I just made a new gunslinger and I figured I'd wash him to the point where I can get 20k (or 30k) hp, but it meant that I didn't enjoy playing a gunslinger - because I wasn't playing a gunslinger, I was playing my bishop once again, self leeching a character that can't do anything EXCEPT get leeched.

There needs to be a significant source of extra HP for endgame characters, and by significant I mean several thousand HP, for every class, even mages. It needs to be gained in a manner that is concurrent with other activities players will already be doing so it doesn't turn into another boring daily grind quest (there's enough dailies with all the bosses, all the seasonal content, and LHC now). I've said it before but there's a reason why most servers primarily use a stepping-stone system where boss kills grant you permanent HP buffs. Kill zak for +100 hp each time, up to 5 times for 500 HP. Then kill Scarlion and Targa for another 500 HP each. Etc, etc. There's no reason the admins should stomp their feet and refuse to implement this kind of system because it makes royals "more like other servers". It's the best system and everyone uses it for a reason. Another option could be a similar HP buff scroll gained via party quests, easy to implement because the tokens of teamwork already exist, and while PQs are woefully dead right now, giving them an incentive for use would make them populated again. Whatever you add, please do NOT make it another boring grindy questline that is a way to "fix" characters that didn't get started on washing early and have to choose between doing the Magatia quest 1000 times or rerolling their 18x character. Any true fix would completely eliminate the need for washing from the outset.

 

this game was designed that way: that you rely on a team to encounter boss fights? This whole buff thingy is the essence of the game. Not relying on your party members destroys the original gameplay.


i did HT with 7.8k HP quite a lot of times several years ago on my archer and it was some of the best runs I participated (so much thrill), and also the parties had no problems because of me. It was way better than mindles afk-ing. Nowadays i sadly dont really play anymore despite having 12k+ HP, so what did HP washing help me with?? Nothing! (I started very late with serious washing in my 100's).

i did Auf with less than 10k HP on the same archer and it was great. Nowadays nothing left. SO where is HP washing?? How does it help? It destroys the game nothing more.

 

I think the following question should be discussed:

1. Whats HBs role in this discussion?
Should It be seen as commonly available or just a nice bonus?

2. What HP should one be able to get for ranged and melee?

3. What new ways to gain HP could be implemented?

My opinion:
1. HB should be a nice bonus. Players should be able to run all bosses w/o HB if they did the alternative ways to gain HP (excluding Reuls HP Quest after it caps to be daily, maybe even rework Reuls Quest to cap to daily after obtaining x amount of HP rather than reaching the current caps. This would make it more inclusive with other ways to gain hp.)

2. Ranged 19k Melee 27k

3. Token of Teamwork/PQs, High Level Task to get extra MP (the bossing idea could fit here, kill all bosses x times for y MP)

 

Please implement no HP wash!

"just get a dk to HB you, that's what the skill is made for"

Please revert back the Shadower 1/1 change!

"just get an active bs to heal you when you get 1/1 during dark sight, nbd"


Will anything really change?

 

If you wanna enjoy Royals you can do some minimal wash which probably hurts you less, or more easily just move to elsewhere.

Spoiler: If you care about why I'm saying this stupid speech

TD; DR: I think HP wash can not be optional at all, can either be mandatory or not exist.

My real thought for this topic is not forcing you wash of course, I support more ways to gain HP also, but the issue of Royals is not that simple. If there is something can really replace wash with better game experience(like tokens of teamwork or else ideas other player said), yeah it's nice but won't resolve the issues currently we have, HB is devalued, AM is useless, washed NL rules the world because of mules then other classes fit nowhere.

On the view of classic RPG we all know old maplestory is flaw designed, and Royals had run it for 8 years barely change anything for non-endgame stuff(maybe to keep the nostalgia which already been killed LOL), so HP wash is mandatory for now and for the next few years I guess it will still be. Simply giving another new way to gain HP may cause more problems e.g. more serious NL story comes because no one really need HB.

It's the meta force you wash but not the game itself really, people don't like to play DK either because they know all NLs are washed and having higher DPS, everyone told you 155 is the level to HT and they don't like or can't find any DK to party with, it's all chained. Once these stuff exist wash meta will never end. 8 years for this server people tend to min/max everything is the thing you can never avoid.

Is there a way to fix them all and make Royals an ideal, balanced MMORPG? Yes of course, HP wash be completely removed, boss deals reasonable damage, but still can't boss without HB if you are NL. But could this happen on an 8 years old server? My poor brain can't think of a good way which Royals can possibly implements.

For a possible goal, new way to get HP should replace traditional wash, the important part is to make people unwilling to wash anymore because with the new way HP growth is reasonable and of course more fun than leeching. Together with changes like classes buffing, making AM viable for bosses somehow, tweaking DK's skillset so there is another party buff works better than HB, and so on. I didn't think it carefully so this part maybe you can just skip it and go to read others' posts about class balancing and HP wash.

 

Then why aren't the other buffs mandatory for other classes like HB is for Corsairs, Night Lords, Marksman, Bowmasters, and post-HT Buccaneers and Shadowers? Same as my analogy above; should we follow the design of HB and make SE/SI/HS mandatory to participate in content? All weapons speed 7 without SI, all party exp 0 without HS, etc? This creates extremely stale gameplay and "fixed" parties, where every party is the same due to the necessity of having certain buffs, and leaving other classes who don't have party buffs in the dust. Oh, you made a Hero? Enjoy never going HT because the multi-target slot will ALWAYS have to be a DK, barring niche melee only runs or something. This is the world where HP washing doesn't exist and everybody "just gets HB".

That may be true for 30k HP Thief classes, but for the other 99%, its not the case. If you wanna talk about thrilling, try being a Buccaneer when BS dc, sed dies, you have to run sed for the last head + arms, while juggling a CR mule, using iframes to try to avoid attacks as much as possible, with a finger on Hero Will for when you get sed off the left into rocks. I had nearly 20k HP, guess what? Still died (this is a good example of where HB could have been supplementary and not a requirement to even go, yet would have made a huge difference in the run).

Everybody needs to stop watching elite HT speedruns and then extrapolating that data out to "this is what HT has become for everyone" because its just not true, especially for new players, which Royals has been having a very hard time retaining in recent months. If your anecdote were true and it were so thrilling and exciting and fun, that is how most people would be playing the game. They are not, because its a risky, frustrating, potentially hugely expensive waste of time and money, to run a boss that can kill party members in 1 hit without a dispellable buff, with 0 counterplay if Hero Will is on CD.

HP washing isn't destroying the server, lack of better alternatives is. While staff have implemented more ways to gain additional HP, you still have to wash for late game bosses without relying on the shit design of HB, and some of the HP alternatives are straight water trash (Reuel).

 

why is it a flaw in game design if you are supposed to utilize all skills that are available instead of brain-dead tanking? I dont understand. How do you think, is it possible to have a lively MMORPG when everyone has all they need for themselves? Then it becomes the "oversatured single player game" again as someone said once. To be clear, what most of you guys want, can not exist!

 

sure i am dumb and do not know what i am speaking of. and on top of that i just lied about my experience which is unworthy anyway

 

Utilization =/= reliance. I can use SE/SI to make my HT run faster. I can use HS and HSH to make my HT run safer and more rewarding. HB is relied upon to even attempt. That is far outside the line of pure utilization.
Nobody is looking to make this a single player game. In fact, I wish there were more accessible, efficient ways to gain enough HP to do bosses for the average player so there would be more people playing here that are able and willing to do endgame content.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting that HT is a braindead tank fest. Sure, if you're running all 30k Thieves with mules then ya maybe, but a regular run still has to track head phases, watch positioning to not fall of platform, manage arm HP, mind not crossing mid, coordinate CR and HSH, etc. Like it may not be shiny and new and exciting like it was when it came out, but you're making HT sound like Krex. There is only so much you can do to add difficulty to an 18 year old, 2D glorified browser game with limited systems and mechanics.

Ok I never said or implied that. This is a discussion and people are gonna disagree with you. No reason to be offended and self deprecate in defense.

 

LF temporary HB potions (at this point, why not)

 

While we’re all theory crafting here.. how exactly do you expect the players who have spent 20b+ washing their character to react to suggestions about making HP washing “more free” than it already is (Elixer of Life, MoN, Black Belt, Legendary Medal buffs). Given that the remaining MR community vastly consists of ‘OG Hardcores’ I can’t imagine this change would be very popular.

In addition, I think if HP washing was any easier then this game would in turn become too easy.. (it already is). Then also what about the AP reset money sink (through taxes) and the value of NX:mesos. If AP resets tank it will make it harder for new players to acquire wealth.

Personally IDGAF, but making HP washing more accessible has hidden challenges that I don’t think everyone realizes. This game NEEDS some challenge.

But hey if we’re hopping on the ludicrous request train L>Reimbursement please

 

Literally the same argument of "don't cancel student loan debt, what about the people that already worked off their debt?"

Anyway, it's not about the difficulty or time invested of HP washing. It's about new players getting screwed over because they didn't have enough spare mp to wash their HP to have the ability to do content in the game, then having to invest months of doing Reuel quest daily for a crumb of HP.

The players that have already washed their characters are already ahead in the game simply by virtue of being able to do content. Their efforts will not be affected if new players have other avenues of accessing bossing content.

We've been on this mushroom server for years. Throw the new players a bone.

 

The fact that you call this request "ludicrious" and then having your comment liked by Kenny gives me no hope in having a productive conversation regarding this topic.

 

You are over-reading my “like” a productive feedback involves both side of opinions and I like to learn more about both sides hence the like (for the record, I also “like” other comments too).
I agree that hp washing isn’t a well-designed feature by nexon/wizet. Meanwhile, it’s a feature that rooted in royals for so long. Changes regarding hp washing is a radical change that should be well discussed. For example, how much hp is a good number? How would it change the game play, etc. I hope this clear out the misunderstanding!