This is a continuation of this thread as well as this thread. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Some of you may remember a similar post (warning: long) I made a while back regarding the same issue of our ToS. It got locked within a day because "it got derailed" or "it got out of hands" which I still find silly. It neither got derailed or out of hands, a lot of people replied because they cared about it and wanted to voice their opinions. Hopefully this attempt won't get shunned down like my previous thread. Please understand that I'm not making this thread out of anger or spite, I'm only trying to make this server better for lack of better words. Repost from this thread: The only thing I got from that was it's okay to harass people as long as people don't like them. Because Jeff was a dick to others, it's fine for others to be a dick to him? That's some messed up bullshit. I'm not here to defend Jeff but you guys are pulling a double standard on Jeff. GM Michael also said "Goofy's been given a forum warning for the post in question. The rest of this report is ridiculous" when it's clearly outlined in the ToS that warnings are not given prior to bans. Bringing it back on topic, Jeff was banned for harassing Egonic, not scamming 240mil out of Murker. In Egonic's report, the only thing Jeff said to him was "i heard ur a hella nerd" so it's safe to assume that he was banned for that. That in itself is an absolute joke and it's disgusting how people can get banned for such petty things. Jeff reported Goofy for more or less the same thing. Goofy called him and his BL/guild annoying and toxic, and Jeff took offense to that. You're probably saying to yourself, "how is calling Jeff annoying and toxic considering harassment?" It isn't. And neither should calling someone a nerd be as well. People here might have some personal vendetta towards Jeff but personal grudges should not play a part in the outcome of a report. Here are some other bans that I found to be a complete joke: Graces' report on Jami & DYLE's report on Mr. Jingle. Again, these bans are some of the most pathetic things in the world. "Fucking nibs, assholes" and "man cmon that report was so petty.." The rules simply states that homophobic/racial slurs are not be be said in FM and smega yet Mr. Jingle was banned for whispering it in an non-offensive manner. In my entire lifespan of playing video games, I've never been part of such a childish community. Based on our current ToS, anyone can report anyone under harassment if they themselves find it to be offensive. Why are GMs letting people get away with these insignificant reports? By doing so, they're inadvertently encouraging it. I wonder how these people's days go when they find that their toothpaste has been swapped in the morning. I know most people here don't give a shit on what I have to say but it's infuriating to me how people are getting away with these trivial reports. This isn't fucking 2nd grade, grow the fuck up people. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ @Daniel Going back to what you said earlier again, treat people how you expect to be treated. If that's the case then Jeff did nothing about scamming Murker. Murker stole Fion's 16 attack SCG (valuing over 3bil) and dropped it. Jeff refused to pay Murker's gen20 split which was around 240mil. I guess you could say it's karma. EDIT: Formatting
First off, Daniel said that line that you incorrectly cited me as saying, just pointing out a small error there. I already personally responded to this exact post before, and all you've done is restate it with nothing more to add, so I really don't see why this is necessary? Please clarify your intent. This isn't a Feedback thread so much as a rant, since you've suggested nothing to us to help improve our game. Also, quoting the very last line of the thread; yeah, that is karma. It's also nothing to do with why Jeff got banned; he got banned for harassing Egonic and it had nothing to do with nickkmurks.
Most feedback comes from being frustrated at certain things and this is no different. It may seem like a rant but if you read what I wrote in my thread a while back, I have made clear suggestions at things in which I personally found needs to be revised. You may not agree with all of them which I'll respect but please don't label it as a rant. Going back to Jeff's ban, he was banned for going out of way to harass (I use the word harass very loosely) Egonic. But the thing with that situation and many other reports I've seen is that the victim almost never tells the victimizer to stop. Instead of letting the vitimizer know that he/she is being harassed, they decide to immediately jump the gun and make a report. In DYEL's report there is no evidence of him telling MrJingles to stop whispering him because he feels threatened by what he's saying. He may have hinted MrJingles to stop with this phrase: "I think you're harassing me right now on this behalf" but nowhere does it directly state that he wants him to stop. Also, I don't know about you but it doesn't look to me like MrJingles whispered DYEL in an attempt to make him feel uncomfortable, he approached him in a mature manner regarding a ban he found unjustifiable. People can easily enable or encourage victimizers to keep assaulting them in an attempt to get more evidence to ban them. Players should not be banned for harassment unless they have been told to stop and continue to go at it. As for homophobic/racial slurs go, I'll quote what John said from here: "Racial/Homophobic terms: The rules on use of the n-word and homophobic slurs will stand as follows: Words such as the n-word, language historically synonymous with its intent, and variations of the word are not allowed to be spoken megaphones. Please keep these terms to yourself and your friends as not everyone may share the same view as you on these words and it may cause unnecessary offence. The usage of such terms in megaphones will constitute in a ban. There are plenty of other words to be used to "greet a friend" or whatever other reason you may have for using the above terms. The usage of these terms in public places such as the FM is also prohibited." Nowhere does it directly state that it cannot be used in whispers. MrJingles' also used the N-word in an non-offensive manner. Context is very important as you mentioned with what happened between Egonic and Jeff. I agree that homophobic/racial slurs should not be said through smega and all chat in FM but what's the harm in using it in an appropriate manner? Sure some people will still get offended by the N-word but people can be offended by anything, the color of your character's hair can easily offend others, do you guys go out of your way to deal with those kind of reports? No. The main points I was trying to make in my thread way back is why are we so strict and why do we not get warnings prior to bans (not your 3 day ban warning)? There is a clear discrepancy between calling someone an asshole once and repeatedly whispering to someone you're f---ing stupid, why are they treated on the same level? I can dig deeper into all the reports players have made that are beyond ridiculous but I think you guys get my point. I said that to show Daniel how flawed that logic is. You can't treat others the way you want others to treat you, because the rules don't allow you to be a dingus.
Yeah, I disagree with that MrJingles ban. DYEL and MrJingles were literally just talking. Disagreeing with someone and telling them your opinion is not harassment. Also, I really think saying the n-word when referring to the word itself or quoting someone who said it, such as how MrJingles said it, should not be considered use of the n-word and therefore should not be banned.
Okay, so I'll apologize to start off with this; I saw 95% of the same words in this thread as I did in the last one and assumed it was a complete copypasta. I had not read your older thread from November in this capacity because I was not a member of staff at the time, and the last thread didn't link it once, which is why I wrongly labelled this as a rant. My mistake. Now that I've seen the purpose of your thread and frustrations, I've got a couple of things to say: First off, can we agree to drop the subject of any old bans/specific player report cases? While I see the value in raising specific cases as examples of why a rule may or may not be flawed, I think that it promotes a figurative rift between the staff and the players; was the staff right, or was the player right? I think that we can make our points without bringing personal situations into the spotlight and that it'd be a healthier environment to do it that way. Now that we have that out of the way, it's been talked about for a few months now that our Terms and Services need to be redone. Now it's 3am for me, and I've had a long day, so I'm in no right state to analyze your post at the moment, but it's obvious that your frustration is boiling over and that we need to expedite this process. If you're willing to be patient just a little longer, I have some ideas on how to do just that. I'll leave this thread open providing healthy debate and suggestions on potential changes to the ToS can be provided. Please do not make this thread full of hate like the last one; it'll be a shame to close another thread when people are simply trying to make a change of the better.
As the harrasment rule currently stands, bans are given whenever a player goes out of their way to bother another player. I think that rule needs to be changed for two reasons. First, in just about every circumstance being considered for a harassment ban the argument can be made that the accussed player went out of their way. You could simply not talk to anyone to stay safe from harassment bans and so to recieve a ban you must have done something that could be deemed "out of your way" in order to have been accused. Because of this, saying "goes out of their way" is not a useful measure for harassment bans. Second, bothering is not harrasment. Bothering is far less severe and happens very frequently even amongst friends, and is something that comes naturally from interaction. Since players interact with each other, inevitably they are going to bother eachother, but that is not a cause for a harrasment ban. Small, one-time, or generally unoffensive disputes should be left to the players to handle, while only persistent, malicious, and/or severely offensive cases should be considered harassment in need of GM intervension. Generally speaking, if it's reasonable to assume that a situation will be forgotten by both people involved after 1 or 2 days, then it just isn't something substantial enough to call for a ban. Where as, continuosly hasseling of one player to another or personalized insults with intent to do emotional harm, those are the kinds of things GMs should be focusing on.
@Michael Thanks for being understanding, it's great to finally get some positive feedback. I just want to say that I'm by no means the only person here that finds the current Terms & Conditions questionable, I have spoken with several players in-game and they've all more or less expressed similar opinions, whether those people will come forth and voice it is up to them. There's no rush in revising the Terms & Conditions, a well fleshed product is infinitely times better than a sloppy product that will only get more backlash. With the help of the community, hopefully we can make Royals a less frustrating place for everybody. Also thanks for giving us a confirmation, I would much rather (and I'm sure many others will to) be told no to a change than to be left in the dark.
All I can really say in one sentence (don't feel like writing a lot) is that some rules in this server are way too strict.
If you whisper someone and tell them derogatory terms, why do you find that appropriate? just cause the rules don't say that word for word. There is always room for improvement and I think this can be a good thread, but I also like common sense more than i like foolproof rules. I would like to think he got banned for the fact he switches character and then does it, this was some time after and i haven't even spoken to him, that shows he probably know it's wrong. but still does it. This isn't real life, here you could at least have some manors. It's not so hard acting polite. If you lose your map and then start swearing at them as Grace's report you are not very polite, accept that you were gone too long, or ask politely for it back, if you don't tough luck.
This along with everything else depends on context. Saying to someone "you f---ing n---er" is vastly different from "n---a is instaban", would you not agree? One is a clear insult while the other is a statement. IMO because this is a video game, things should be less strict compared to real life. People play video games to escape reality and have fun, by adding needless restrictions to the game it only hinders one's experience and force players to be more wary of what they do/say. And in Grace's example, Jami acknowledged the fact that he lost his map to Graces, he even said he would cc. He got banned under harassment when all he did was display his frustration. Would you not be upset too if you left your map for not even a minute to repot only to come back seeing someone have mapowner? Let's stick to what @Michael said and drop past cases though.
I'm not offended by it so it's hard for me to say much, but doesn't have to be any difference, the only difference i see is the first one is aggressive, i know people who would find both offensive and would act the same way if some random started talking shit to them. Since that has been brought up before, Just cause you don't get offended doesn't mean everyone else see it as you do, so it's much easier having it forbidden.
You need to back this up with more than that Kim. Especially since you don't play the server (as far as I'm aware). I think the topic should only be discussed by staff and those who are actively playing on our server.
True enough, I apologize. Should have included that I based that opinion on what I see in the report section of the forums. Anywho, I stay out of this topic now.
I find the Boss warping rule a bit strict, had a HT run where the client crashed cause, in system option i changed from window mode to full screen twice, cause the check box keeps unchecking and leaving both options blank, so it switched me back to windowed mode and crashed. Can't get a warp cause it's my fault. Had a re warp today, since the server crashed our last and we started it before everyone was there, and they can't get a warp cause we started it. It's not like it's a low level trying to loot a z-helm, so the run took much longer for a stupid rule and because the server crashed, and we have to suffer. As a player there is no real reason for this rule except hinder people from getting free loot, and it's fucking stupid I think most GMs that play the game can tell the difference between a lvlv 50 trying to get a z-helm and a 17x trying to get back in to help!
It wouldn't be very helpful. Law goes on the case of precedent, because how the rules are interpreted isn't always clear from the rule itself (this can be seen on this server a lot!). But because you asked (and I'm lazy), I'll refrain from providing examples. Suggestions for bans: 1. "Harrassment" is actually used as per the dictionary definition: "the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands." rather than "any interaction whatsoever". It's not harassment unless asked to stop (or unless it's extreme unwarranted behaviour - staff discretion/common sense time), and if the perpetrator doesn't cease, then it's harassment. As it is, talking to someone has been seen to be deemed harrasment, even though they were not threatening, not asked to stop, and the conversation was civil and two way. 2. Anything that was considered acceptable on GMS but isn't here should be explicitly outlined in the terms of service. Killstealing was extremely common on GMS, and here it's not allowed, so it's nice that the T&C state it's not allowed. Mass defaming was also quite prevalent on GMS, but as some first found out many months ago, it can be considered harassment. This should explicitly be defined in the T&C, whatever (rough) metric the gms use for mass defame should also be included. 3. Killstealing reports often provide little evidence that the player was in the map for more than a minute. Proof should be required of their attacking. There have been multiple reports where the reporter provided no evidence other than a single "cc pls" screenshot showing the person in their map, with no evidence of them staying, or even attacking mobs. If they're killstealing, you'd have plenty of time to grab evidence, so a strong, incontestable case should be required. 4. "Racial and homophobic terms" doesn't translate well when you have a server of people of all different nationalities and backgrounds. Some words in some countries are considered rather crass, or extremely impolite, yet in other countries are used frequently in everyday speech. If you're going to have words that can't be said on the server in any context, either make them censored as in gms, or explicitly have them outlined in the terms and conditions. No word is racist/offensive/whatever without a context, so if the staff personally doesn't like them, this really needs to be readily communicated to the general playerbase (not the small percentile that actually read abuse reports to know what the staff do and don't like).
I agree with most of this, I've struggled with dcing just because of gfxing. But the only real way to fix this issue is to add an npc or something like that which could warp you back into Zak/Krex etc.. But of course these kinds of features would be abused. If there is a way to fix this dcing and not being able to get back in issue that would be amazing, but right now the only suggestions I've seen to this issue this could easily be abused.
I think what sounds the most important to me, when it comes to reporting players for harassment, verbal abuse and whatnot, is the amount of evidence provided to support your case. Over the last few weeks I've seen plenty of reports where I see a screenshot of someone calling one another a bad word but the players never show what happened before that. So to make that into an example: Spoiler: example me: you're a **** **** *** ! ---------------------------------------- (we slide our chat box down so we can't see that in the screenshot and then we ss the reply) him: well *** your **** him: nobody likes you *** This scenario will get the wrong player banned because the evidence was manipulated to be in their favor. This will also cause a lot of paranoia on the server where players have to start taking screenshots of everything they do or say to be able to defend theirselves. A rule that states that reports that do not provide complete evidence of the situation will be nullified would be my suggestion. But I can also imagine people disagreeing with me on this one.
Basically the request is, please allow GMs basic access to chat logs for verifying screenshot reports. +100 You're right! this keeps happening to me. I didn't ever bother figuring out why. I'll put this on my to do list for attempting to find a fix.
In your quote of the "n word rule" it does say megas but, it also says keep it to yourself and friends. I am not himself and I am not his friend so he shouldn't assume that I'm okay with him talking to me like that.
