General Awaiting Developer Input Add DPM Dummy System or DPM/EPM Command

Hello world

 

I come from playing World of Warcraft and Blizzard games (including Overwatch).

And let me tell you, it's not a thing of the first day, or even year, that you see an impact with the damage meter on the player.

But rather as the years go by, people slowly gravitate to just having DPS in the brain.

They no longer see the game as a game, but as a spreadsheet.

This is fine for developers to have, in fact it's encouraged, who have to deal with the balancing and numbers as a spreadsheet; but for the common player? It rots their mind that only DPM and DPS matters. It turns the player to a different type of player in the long run and many are conditioned to this from having it in other games.

DPS meters remove the veil of a graphics game and just turns it to a game of numbers.

[Edit: Just in case people have a hard time understanding what I mean, people already have that mindset a bit naturally. DPS meter however throws petrol at it and ignites it to burn even worse]

 

In that case let only the GMs who are in charge on class balancing to have it. I really can't imagine MapleStory having a toxic "pUmP tHOsE nUMbeRs uP" environment.

 

Not sure if sarcasm? We already have: "R>NL/SAIR", "whats your range?", "Mules check"
, And Guilds that only allow bossing or high range players to join. The high dps culture is already here. Yea its not as bad as WoW, but it exists.

In fact, its hilariously wrong too. An only NL HT runs are so slow and boring, yet people still think theyre the highest dps and do it.

I think the player base would be better off with a dps chart in game, at least they would actually know what the highest dps party composition is. Right now we have a bunch of idiots that play NL and HT everyday thinking its the best.

I agree that the WoW dps culture is lame and toxic, and doesnt fit maplestory. In WoW, you HAD to hit certain numbers or you would die in the raid. In maple, its just for time saving. Its not that important.

Again, "the other server" has this feature and theyre fine. Does more good than bad. Can argue it all we want but when i see the other server have something we dont, and they currently have more active online. It speaks volumes.

 

I dont think the dummy is really a necesity, now the command on the other hand, ill stand by what ive said, for years ppl(like me) stand by their own opinions and experience about "whats the best composition" name it at HT/ auf, etc. Actual numbers can help theory crafters to find out realitys. Bullys will always do their bussines regardless of this kind of mechanics exist or not:



And basic/dumb ppl will just see the numbers and call out "whats the best job to pick" and just choose the highest dmg dealer. Ppl who are capable to actually think will see, for example: "Out of 20 runs I constantly do 190m-220m dmg/hour at HT, but when theres a MM thanks to blind my avrg becomes 210-240m, and that job increases their dmg by "x%" avrg, so despite hes doing the lowest dmg himself, hes boosting the party dmg by "x%". With this kind of numbers we can know,in this example, if MM buff was enough or not for example. Instead of current reviews of ppl who, dont play MMs but hate Knockbacks, calling them out great and toptier(yes, if you look around theres ppl saying that) and other players who just look at themselfs and their own numbers and dont pay atention to the rest of the pt, telling that blind is still worthless and MM is still trash. And this is just an example, we can find out whats the spot of multitarget role in HT/zak, the configuration of different jobs efficiency, etc, etc. According to this, we could suggest more informed changes and tweaks.

Just staff and developers should be able to see this?: Theres several experienced players in staff, yes. But theres also a lot of experienced players who are not part of the staff, and can provide a really ufeul insight about some changes that staff plans to do at any given point.

"The game its not about numbers and dmg, you look so dumb doing all this math for a 2004 mushroom kids game, this shouldnt be a thing".- Believe or not theres ppl who actually have fun theory crafting, findidng out things etc, youre not forced to use the command, or give any relevance to it. IMO those casual players who judge min maxing players/guilds and those pro minmaxing players that call "dumb/moron" to any person playing the job they want, the way they want, witotuh caring of their dmg, have 1 thing in common, theyre both idiots. Play the game the way you want, and let others do the same.

 

One has to remember, that those speaking in the forums? Tend to be the ones that have a personality to speak up, take initiative, and seek out methods.
We're still not counting a big bulk of the players.

If you put a random person in a maze with many directions, they'll scatter randomly. Some may follow a path more frequently.

However, if you put one in a maze with an arrow? They'll follow that arrow without scrutiny.
That's what a dps meter usually does.

With spreadsheets and stuff already in the internet, a person has the choice whether to use them and seek them out. That choice is very important. I do it.
If it's already in the game in their face? They'll default to it definitely. Hard. No choice. Even more so than they already do.

It's still an awesome little tool for developers and staff. It'll fix misconceptions for sure.

 

Love the dummy idea.

 

I'm in agreement with the three suggested: Dummy, DPM, and EPM. The dummy (along with DPM command) is actually very helpful for both Staff and regular players to see. EPM command allows grinding players to test out training locations with their gear and also for leech sellers/leechers to get more accurate numbers of exp for rotations.

 

Disagree tbh... While I like the idea, most bossing in this game is already pretty easily reduced to DPS dummy with pretty low ceilings for skill to be impactful or meaningful in terms of DPS... hold key do damage the rest is often cosmetic w/ minor cues that you get used to very quickly. I think adding ways to check this precisely would make it worse. There just aren't enough mechanics to obscure DPS in a given run, you'd get the same readouts over & over, reducing each class to number output and reinforcing which are better (DPS is king).

I guess I could see ppl asking for DPS cutoffs when recruiting for bosses, or at least the differences in class DPS would become very noticeable & up front. But tbh, people can already ask for range & they don't often, so maybe this aspect wouldn't be an issue. For me its more that, maple's charm is about obscuring admittedly shallow mechanics with aesthetics, this would take away from the precious illusion

It's sort of how I really like that they added boss hp % in terms of usefulness & aesthetic, but at the same time this has made bosses feel more like loading bars than they already did.

TLDR: maple doesnt reeeaaallyy benefit from more reductionism, but i guess if we all admit its just a lil numbers game, might as well lean into it?

 

Bump LF>target dummy to analyze DPS on different classes

 

I believe this would be a waste of time and resources for not much gain. Regardless of the benefits, there's just not that many worth the man hours to do it yet. If it was easy to do, sure just throw it in.

Very useful tool for staff game balancing though.

 

I've been thinking about this more recently.

1. Adding a test dummy mob to the game.
What I will provide is a rough sketch of how I envision this feature working. It is quite ridiculous that we have to use things like Krex eye to test our DPS.

This is very feasible, and would not require 'heavy' dev work other than NPC scripting and WZ editing. Add a damage testing map option to Mu Lung Dojo. Within the damage testing map, you can talk to So Gong, who will be able to provide you with summoning sacks which summon a stationary version of Straw Target Dummy:

One advantage with summoning sacks is that players can position the mobs in particular ways in order to test their multi target attacks.

You can have several types of Straw Target Dummy, for example, one with identical stats to Krex, with 10 million HP and weakness to all elements with boss status. One doesn't have to go crazy here. Maybe one variant is enough, or three variants with different defense levels. Just keep it simple, we are not asking for the moon and stars here, just something that is much more convenient, but at the same time not all that different to what we already have. Knowing the target's HP, one can time themselves.

Let multiple players enter the map in a party for various buffing. Upon exiting or logging off, the player logs in to the dojo hallway. Script the portals to remove all existing summoning sacks from the players inventory (and of course, make them untradeable).

2. Add damage tracking.
Doing damage is part of the game. Doing the best damage you can and trying to ensure that is a valid playstyle, and it is not inherently toxic. For example, in a boss like Von Leon, I would kill to know how much damage I inflicted on an attacker like my shadower, or even my bishop. Now here, I'm unsure what needs to be done on the developer side to add damage tracking to boss runs. Anything is an improvement to what we have now, and I'd be fine if we can check our damage at the Mystic Ledger in the lounge after a boss fight. I can definitely understand being against having a UI showing tracked damage, as that requires the highest amount of dev work and risk of client bugs (in Royals).

I'm still puzzled, however, at the reluctance to use the in-game command system. I know there is a philosophy in staff to limit the number of custom commands, but the more I think about it the more silly it sounds to me. The game comes with a command system; it was an original design. Why we don't embrace this is beyond me. Could it get out of hand? Sure, but I think we can all realize which commands are bloat (like people asking for a command to check their current NX) compared to something like this. However, if there is a technical reason as to why going through the mystic ledger would be easier than implementing a /dpm command which lists the amount of damage you've inflicted on a mob ID in a map, then I'll accept that. As far as I remember, mobs can have their damage tracked based on what skills were used (this is how we can implement nerfs to mage ultis/roar), and I believe this also applies to player igns as well. The command would not be broadcast to the map, and would simply show you your damage only. I really do not comprehend the opposition to a command other than a technical reason, but no reason was given.

I'm also going to address some common concerns that people always bring up with a suggestion like this, and why I am dismissive of them.

a. Toxicity, optimization, range checking, etc.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a feature like this should not increase the amount of range checking or dps checking. I feel like this is just the easy, low hanging fruit thing to parrot in opposition to this feature request. At least, I don't think this will invite any new toxic culture that doesn't already exist among players prone to this kind of behavior. Since I joined this server years ago and started bossing, there have always been players who range checked when publicly recruiting. I don't know how much it happens now (seems to be more 'level' checking), but there are ways around this behavior. For example, people value knowledge of the game a lot, and if you are able to lead your own runs, or contribute to smooth runs, that will be much more desired than the damage you do. In addition, it has always been necessary that you build your own social circle, or join one like a guild, where you will fit in and not have to succumb to these types of pressures, especially in the beginning when you are learning. I think having the amount of damage a player has done only available as information to that player is a fine compromise if that's what gets us the feature. Then players can decide if they want to share that information, or keep it to themselves, and they can decide how they want to use it (competition, self improvement, experimentation, etc.). If they are being pressured unnecessarily to share the information, then I think it's safe to say that whatever group you were in was not a good fit for you.

b. Maple is a simple game and we can do all the damage calculating we need in a spreadsheet.
I agree with this only partly. If this were the case, we would always trust theory 100% and never test anything in practice. This is not a good reason to avoid having this feature, especially the first feature of having a dummy mob. General players do not have access to perfect information. Hell, even staff members don't always have access to perfect information. There are several examples of this:

• Mismatches between skill descriptions and actual values in the WZ files due to error: small public example
• Information that is not available in WZ files or skill descriptions, but hard coded away from our eyes. For example, the amount of damage lost from 'chain' skills like bucc energy orb, or chain lightning, or the extra damage from the last hit of bucc barrage. In other words, some skills have some aspects handled by the client which are not clearly described.
• Players questioning the effectiveness of some skills (for example, threaten).

I think it's very important for players to have these tools at their disposal so that they can test and validate how things work specifically to Royals, and they can contribute more substantially to conversations in a way that matters. With these features, we can test if our calculations are correct, and adjust things accordingly and compare. It's the most fundamental idea of science, and applies here as well.

As far as damage testing for staff members, in my opinion they already have enough ways to test DPS without the need to develop a new feature.

c. This is too private server-ish
This is MapleRoyals, a MapleStory private server. I think the straw target dummy and placement in Mu Lung Dojo is a very natural addition to the game. It's how GMS handled it, albeit with much more freedom to summon dummies anywhere.

Anyway, I really hope we get some progress on a feature like this. At the very least, we can receive it in parts, especially the first suggestion in this post. I myself have several things I want to test, and while I don't play nearly as much anymore, theory crafting had been a huge part of the enjoyment of the game as I've gotten older. It would be nice to easily put some theories to the test.

 

There's been a lot of discussion above which I haven't read, but a small suggestion to the original post: include a short countdown timer (e.g. 3 seconds) between talking to the NPC and spawning the test mob.