In Discussion Bossing [Feedback Request] Von Leon

it's me

 

wb von leon!

 

Just wait for it to get easy right?

 

So we managed to clear this new VL version and I feel like I can already give feedback on some of the new changes.

Spoiler: ty pros

After discussing with @autismax and collecting our thoughts, I will go through the pros and cons of the recent update in our opinion:

+ Laser: the new laser is great, it poses a threat to the point where you have to dodge it - this is exactly the type of threat I asked for in my last feedback post.
+ Bird stun: the new stun is good, people actually died to it and since it's dodgeable I believe this is a step in the right direction in terms of the mechanics this boss should have.
+ Lightning: not much to say here really, it is a positive change but not a big one. I would like to see some indicator for when skull debuff expires tho, such as a bar above your character.

- Gargoyle stun: This one is very bad in my opinion, it did achieve the goal of making melees important, but not in a good way.
The fight is really unfun and as a rule of thumb - mechanics that can lead to death you cannot control are bad.
You rely too much on Holy Shield, so in case of jail room or bishop death, you can face stunlock into death, which is one of the most unfair ways to die.
I suggest completely reworking this mob and buff it in other ways.
I don't find relying on Holy Shield fun gameplay at all, but that might be just me.
If you do decide to stick to stuns on mobs - please increase mobs summon cd to 2.5 mins, because you can't always cast hsh in time with the exact same cd.

+/- Gargoyle HP: The HP was buffed from 8m to 40m which is a bit much imo, but what bothers me more is that it was buffed without reducing the main boss HP at all.
I don't think VL is doable in 18 man pt now, even 21 man might be a stretch, especially if not very geared.
As I already said, any buff to mechanics needs to come with reduced boss HP, to increase skill checks and reduce gear checks.

+/- Drops: The drops are in a weird spot now and we need more time to decide if it's good or not.
My first impression is that it's very excessive and that 6/6/6 ratio feels a bit off, it might need some tweaking.
Also, tradeable drops still remain very very underwhelming.

Thank you for the update and I hope we can see further improvements!

 

As a Corsair that was lagging -- sometimes needing 1-2 seconds to dismount -- the lightning buff is terrible.

From a gameplay perspective, it's quite hard to accept that an attack that could potentially kill you is unavoidable (imagine rocks falling OR vulture and the debuff wears off all of a sudden and you move unpredictably). Has this debuff been underestimated? Now you could say, yeah, I could mentally keep track of the 15s(?) duration, but it would still be pretty crazy if the debuff wearing off happens at the second when you need to dodge a lethal attack.

If this design was made to ensure some RNG deaths... It makes for such a bad gameplay experience. Similar to an unavoidable DR 1hko-ing you.

Now, this might have been due to lag and shouldn't be part of consideration, but when half my runs are laggy af, maybe due to region or due to expedition size or just my internet, this becomes a reality.

Corsairs are significantly worse off this patch

 

There's a time left UI for the debuff!?

 

, well not for debuffs, but need that mental math T.T

 

Donn1e had a well thought out post so here's my thoughts on it:

Strong agree with everything here EXCEPT lightning change I think isn't all that positive - it further forces ranged attackers to heavily wash (or rely on HB, which is made a bit easier with fewer dispells). If the damage it deals is reduced I'd be much happier with the attack.

As a bishop main it's nice to have something more to do besides ress, but yeah mobs are a bit rough right now. Especially as I'm pretty sure they're also stunning melee attackers, which is contrary to the goals of them. 40m hp is also a lot and makes they extremely hard to clear before hsh wears off - we went from 24m hp/wave to 160m hp/wave.

These changes I think are fine, if the intent is to make it into a 30 person boss instead of the originally stated 12-18. If devs would like to stay at that 12-18 goal I think some significant nerfs to hp, mob hp, and belts are required.

My other thoughts on the changes:

We didnt' actually get there, might be an issue with curent mobs? Not sure

An attacking bishop can still dodge this just barely. Seems fine except as said above

Yay people actually have to pay attention to this now

Mostly covered above - 2 mins is still pretty short, would probably be fine if gargoyles weren't so tanky now...
No hardskin is a good change, but their ranged stunning attack does seem to be hitting melee attackers, which seems a bit counter to the goal of that. No dispell is a great change, especially for classes like paladin trying to clear them
Even for a 30 person group I feel like gargoyles might be a bit overstatted now.

Fine for a 30 person clear, seems like a lot for 18. The only issue is that the other drops still don't match 30 person runs, and maybe barely are enough for 18. This increasingly puts the focus on running VL for belt and belt alone, which I'm not sure will be great. A lot of people don't really want to go through the pain of relooting and chaosing the belt, meaning they have no incentive to join VL. We're already struggling to get enough people, this will just make it harder and reduce the amount of groups that run.

Good change, but sucks for blunt weapon paladin as we don't have enough SP for will 10. Not really sure about the best solution on this, either a global change to will making the new max with book 5 (and quest gives will 1), giving everyone free SP, or changing some other pally skill to max at a lower amount? Not sure of any other class that's quite so insanely pressured on SP.

Seems like a reasonable reduction. FS still good for CPQ and mass scrolling (since VL likely won't be super common), but should add some good value to the boots. Any thoughts on a similar change for projectiles? Not sure how I feel about that either way, but it's worth considering.

Good changes. I like the projectile crafting change - gives a use for extra medallions, and makes it a bit less costly to craft. Recharge anywhere is nice as otherwise people would likely get 1 vanity set for range, and ignore the rest since they'll take longer to recharge than the wa saves in a run...


Overall I think this is a strong push towards making VL a 30 person boss, with the sellable loot still lagging behind. Is that the goal? If so communication about that would be appreciated, as it'll help players provide better feedback on the fight.

 

no longer in solitary cell

 

We went 2 run b2b today with 23~24man
1st run cleared
2nd run failed

1st
Most important problems is Crash issue, Our crash members weren't have issue before , but after new patch , crash become cummon (Using img files)



2nd
VL Total HP still 6.3b
I think is fair to decrease total hp for VL
since we buffed VL (mobs/laser/bird stun) , so hp nerf is a must !
I would say try nerf too 5b hp first and see how

3rd
Mini Golems summon cd=1minute
Looks like one golem heal VL =2%hp now (was 0.3%)
So if 10 golems = 20%hp (feel a bit too much )
I think CD need longer to be fair , either nerf heal % hp or buff cd

4th
Von Leon's lightning attack now has a wider attack range
I think the attack range is too far , literally most time of the run are reversed
Cuz even NL who got fj , need jump away super early , lose a lot dps
so we just let light hit us , I think need change back old version

5th
Demon Gargoyle
3mobs seems good to dk/hero
however the most terrible part is HIS attack animation

this one
I am sure a lot ppl CAN'T SEE WHERE ARE TOMBS and Rocks with this......LF>Change
To many effects = causes people to lag more (got a lot gfx issues today)
I think need Longer CD (maybe change too 3minutes first) on summon gargoyles, let bishops have a chance to actually use Holy Shield
Jail + summon messes up the holy shield timer so badly too
feel like VL kinda RNG right now , imagine jail most melee and bs in then mobs summon
We are killing VL , not mobs he spawned...
Also as a NL , I don't really feel get stun much by demon gargoyle , nelees archers pirates might suffer more F

 

I'll add my input after the update. these are things i've noticed after a few runs:

1. VL's Vulture Stun now lasts 2 seconds instead of 1. i think this is completely fine as it is. You should always be trying to dodge this imo

2. VL's Lightning Attack now has a wider range. i was fine with this but you have crazy skull for like 50% of the fight. i think slightly reducing this skills cool down would help

3. Gargoyles have 40mill hp and they can now stun. the stun part i'm fine with it. it gives Bishops something to do other then just standing there waiting to ress dead players. it also makes the mobs more dangerous when rocks drop and your stunned. but the amount of hp seems a bit high maybe lowering them to 25mill?

4. VL's laser eye attack now also applies prone-seduce. i agree with this change it means you should always be jumping to avoid the sed into 1/1. another plus side to having bishops in the party to heal those that do get hit by laser eye

5.This has to do around second/third body it seems to spawn more mobs or feels like it at least half way of second body and almost all of third body it causes a lot of in game lag and with so many mobs up and Gargoyles attack animation it makes seeing the rocks harder i end up losing track of where my character is. would it be possible to slightly increase the cool down time on both mini castle golems and Gargoyles? and maybe rework the Gargoyles attack animation like how the old rocks animation was redone to make it more clearer to see

6. I think with the buffs to VL's attacks and mobs it spawns that a Slight Decrease to the main bosses hp would be nice to lets say 5.5b-5.8bill?

As i do more runs ill be sure to update my feedback

 

All these new changes to VL and the loot pool/boss itself is STILL suffering from the same original problems :/

 

@Zancks encouraged me to share my thoughts about VL, even the feedback was full of good point of view that I agreed and didn't worth point it again, but my current feedback so far is about drops, one of changes that I would like to see and it happened was about HW10 and how useless it was before the update 83, I don't believe someone use it for another thing unless when u get seduced and definitely worth buy nowadays. (IN MY OPINION)
My second point is about etc drop, since some updates ago HT start drop Dragon Scale and Dragon Spirit, would be cool if VL drop Purification Totem and Burning Energy since both have the same finality of craft.
My last and stupid point, 1 year ago I made a thread about Chaos Scroll fragment, like WS fragment that was added long time ago, @Kenny left his opinion about it drop from not-so-popular bosses and I asked if it should based on difficult or low popularity. Anyway > Link for the all context.

Spoiler: The future happened :0

 

Here's some of my thoughts after 2 successful clears of "new" VL with 24man Parties.

Spoiler: create

Spoiler: finland o_O

Vulture Stuns

• No complaints, this attack is telegraphed and should be dodged 100% of the time. If you can't dodge it you're probably not paying attention.

Lightning Attack

• I don't think this change was necessary, all it did was give Archers an unnecessarily harder time since it's pretty much impossible (and not worth it) for them to dodge this attack now.

• NL/Sair/Bishops can still dodge this if they pay close attention but might end up losing DPS due to having to jump in the opposite direction and then reposition to start attacking again.

• Warriors have no choice but to face-tank this attack even before the buff, leaving them with inverted controls for most of the run.

• With this increased range of Lightning Attack, it seems like everyone's better off just face-tanking the attack and learning to deal with inverted controls in order to not lose out on DPS. Was this the intended outcome of the buff? I personally thought that the previous version of the lightning attack was better because people actually tried to dodge it, which makes the skill more interactive.

Gargoyles

• Gargoyle's attack animation is a huge problem now, it makes your character barely visible. Not sure if this was intended to increase difficulty. Either way, I think the animation should be a little more transparent.

• Even though the increase in HP was extremely drastic, both parties that I've cleared with found this to be manageable with the right strategy. That being said, a nerf to either Gargoyle or Von Leon's HP bar is still needed if Staff's intention is to make this a 12-18man boss.

• Addition of stuns/seals to Gargoyles created a need for active Bishops with Holy Shield. However, it feels extremely terrible when Gargoyles summon and people get jailed at the same time. Currently, Gargoyle's CD is 120s, Holy Shield duration is 30s and Holy Shield Cooldown is 90s. This leaves 0 room for error if you want Holy Shield to be perfectly synced with Gargoyle summons. Unfortunately, people get sent to jail, and more often than not, Holy Shield cooldown and Gargoyle Summons are not synced. I think that Gargoyle Summons cooldown should be increased to 180secs to account for jail RNG, otherwise you're forced to hold back on using Holy Shield just to get the timers back in sync, which is counterproductive to having "active bishops".

Lasers

• I like this change, encourages people to pay attention if they aren't already. However, dodging it has become harder due to constantly having inverted controls. In any case, Lightning Attack should be reverted instead of Lasers being nerfed if changes are to be made.

• Once again encourages "active" Bishops, I have doubts about whether this change will incentivize people to buy/use Hero's Will 10 as others have suggested previously, since it still has a 3min cooldown and Lasers happen very frequently in B3.

Drops

• I thought that the buffed rates for untradeables are great and can potentially make the boss a little more profitable for parties (still ultimately dependent on how your party decides to split drops). However, I foresee that profitability will once again become a problem when people start completing their untradeables. Overall a good band-aid solution.

General Feedback

• The boss fight has become even laggier than it already was with the new patch (especially B3 when VL starts spamming all of his skills and summons consecutively).

• The boss fight now has lesser room for error and deadweights in the party. I also think that every class is equally important in this version of VL, which also means that any DCs at all could cost you the run. The 24-man parties I've cleared with managed to pull through with 1-2 DCs fortunately

• Once again, HP Values should be relooked at if this was meant to be a 12-18man expedition.

• Not exclusive to this version of VL, but I really like how this boss focuses more on player mechanics rather than having OP Gears. Weaker parties can easily clear faster than min-maxed parties just by having lesser deaths and more communication.

 

I used to avoid the lightning attack and use arrow bomb on higher mob stacks, now I just hold down hurricane

 

Most of my points are repeats from older feedback posts but I still want to highlight a few things that, in my opinion, is taking away a lot from the fun challenge that Von Leon brought.
Im all for a more difficult version of VL but with some of the recent changes you took away players skill and replaced it with RNG.

+ Laser
This change is something im on board with. The skill itself is dodgeable but if you fail to do so an active bishop can save your life.

+ Vulture Stun
Again, another good change. Animation is clear so you should be able to dodge it. But if you fail to do so and VL's next attack is rocks it will leave you will less time to reposition yourself. But thats still up to how active and skillful the player is.

Both of these changes promotes players to pay attention and activly get better to dodge said mechanics. When or if they fail to do so, the punishment is fair.
Onto the negatives:

- Lightning
With the latest change it became clear that the skill is just not ment to be dodged. And since its not ment to be dodged you spend over 50% of the run with inverted controls. At least with the old version you had the option to activly do something about it if you were running on a ranged character.

- Gargoyle Stun
This just adds RNG deaths thats being caused by Gargoyles stun into falling rocks. There's really no counterplay to this.
As mentioned in other posts above, if the thought behind this mechanic is to make bishops use Holy Shield then there needs to be changes to the summoning cooldown of Gargoyles.

My other thoughts about gargoyles attack animation, HP and drops are written in detail in @midwinter and @Doo 's posts above.

 

I hope not, i actually think von leon should be made more difficult than it is now, imo it is still too lenient. Total hp should obviously be scaled down to cater to a 12~18 ppl expedition size, but difficulty should definitely be tweaked to be more punishing.

I say this because we ran a run yesterday where it became a disaster, and given the amount of deaths & DCs we had in that run, we should have 100% failed that run but we didn't, so the margin for error is still fairly big.

anyway the incentives for running VL are pretty much just the belts right now, so i think if vl were to be made more difficult, there needs to be better drops, maybe something like a one-of-a-kind + untradeable etc (like golden leaf from anniversary event) where you trade in for a random reward.

 

Hi, I was encouraged to repeat this point in this thread so here I am.

I know it's been said before, but gargoyle stun needs to be removed wholesale.

Let's be frank here, Von Leon was always a negative income boss. I'm not here to advocate for drop increases, the market isn't something I really understand. I just want to emphasize the underlying point that you literally lost money running this boss and still people came.

Because it was fun.

For once, bossing became less about how absurdly high your lines were. Once you get past the initial dps check, Von Leon was a boss that gave you a sense of control. Your deaths were reliant on your own skill and ability to stay focused. Your damage was less about your 70 cgs and perfect DPS, and more about how much you could stay alive, dodge stuns and generally stay on target. Intermittent content like mobs, jail, and later laser gave you frequent and exciting breaks from the monotony of holding down one button.

Then the gargoyle stun came and took it all away.

Now deaths aren't about whether you were keeping track of rocks, whether communication was clear and disseminated to everyone, whether you used the skills in your toolkit to save yourself and your party in a timely and effective fashion.

It's only whether Von Leon is magnanimous enough to not drop a rock on you when you're stunned by an attack that reaches across the map.

There are not enough holy shields in the world to stop this from happening. Dedicated bishops in every party is not enough. Resurrections need to happen, jails happen, spawn timers do not sync up with previous uses of HSH.

And so all the gargoyle stun accomplishes is to wrest that sense of control away from the player. To frustrate a run previously distinguished by your skill and focus by telling you that your deaths will be arranged by RNG, and that there is nothing you can do about it.

I still remember the last run from a group I was a part of over two weeks ago where people who joined and ran fail runs over and over again because they relished the challenge near unanimously declared that they are no longer interested in joining Von Leon as they do not find the runs fun anymore.

Von Leon was never about the rewards. About 20% of people who run actually even scroll their belt, and the drops don't give you income. This is itself an inherent problem as rewards should be, well, rewarding in an endgame boss run, but someone else can address that - the point is that people ran Von Leon because it was fun, exciting, and rewarding on your own merits.

It no longer has those qualities.

Please remove the gargoyle stun. Thank you.

Edit:

Kevin was kind enough to post a clip that highlights the problem I seek to address.

Video



What can you do?

 

Today we ran another run and today we failed .

i think that the rng factor to screw a run up is too much right now, dying to stuff we have no control over or counterplay is just... yikes.

Some of the bullshit rng factors that can cause a run to fail are :
- stunned by gargoyles into rocks
- jail into double mob summons
- confusion running out when you're trying to dodge rocks (this can be argued by "git gud" and timing it but idk how practical it is, especially since i'm a drk and have more stuff to take note of & i'm pretty much on inverted controls for 80% of the run since i'm not NL/SHAD)

The gargoyle changes were made to promote more class diversity by making melees a needed class, but the stuns are really too much tbh, shads and NLs don't really get stunned due to their high avoid and shifter. Same thing for lightning.

I still standby my thoughts that von leon should be more difficult, but not in terms of RNG difficulty, i wish the boss was designed more to center around punishing players for their lack of coordination/skills (like the current laser right now, i think it's great), rather than punishing players just cause they got unlucky.