Suggestion: a unique 1h or 2h axe for the loyal axe users

Ok so i have an idea that will significally increase the power of axe users and get them closer in terms of dps to swords.

1. Cancel stab penalty (min range would go up ): axes use stab attacks randomly and in my opinions its rediculous because why on earth would you stab someone with an axe?, im not sure if its possible to cancel stab attacks to axes but canceling the penalty will have the same effect as removing the stab attack which shouldnt be there in the first place.

2. Add +1 attack speed to tavar, dragon battle axe, tomahawk and dragon axe.

Also, if you say like "axes are supposed to be slow because they are big and heavy" then just take a look at the stonetooth which is alsmost twice the size of the mapler and is fast.

In that case the debate will be only normal vs fast as in other terms they will be equivalent and even axe will have a bit more range, but still ST will lead.

At last, to make swords equivalent in terms of dps to axes then besides 1 and 2 just make colonian axe fast.


Cheers
Ironwill.

 

When you have all decided on a suitable axe or axes, please list them with full details (1h/2h, attack speed, weapon attack average and normal range, weapon level etc) in one post, and tag myself, Matt and John so that we can look things over and consider your proposition(s).

Also, thanks very much, @Plenty, for your well wishes re: my health =)

 

let meet up axers i know that me, ironwill, and kobato are active axers
we need to make sure everyone on the same page for this one guys

the stab reduction is definatly making axe sader bipolar
i can hit 9-10k with regulars and then i got a stab reduction hiting 5-6k
which is sad lol

but like i said earlier a fast attack axe would be nice and really appreciated
we gotta make the listing details like katsuruka said

 

@Katsuruka is it possible for you guys to change the speed of a weapon?
I guess changing the tomahawk speed to "fast" would make it on par with a sparta.
Spartas drop from skeles, tomahawks from ulu.

Also i guess for 2 handed u would need something like the stonetooth, so a 2hand fast axe from a gach maybe?

Is it possible to change the stab reduction?
Thanks

 

I'm fairly sure it's technically possible to change the speed of a weapon if necessary. Stab reduction, I don't know about. You've had to ask @Matt.

I have to say, though, that I very much like the idea of making axes a more viable choice. =)

 

Could a number cruncher calculate what the weapon attack of the 2-handed dragon axe would need to be to keep up with a stonetooth?

 

the fast attack colonian doe!

 

it's like a blessing is upon us if we could get a fast attack tavar or toma hawk i would be so grateful ^-^ kat and matt are the best~

 

Pulling info from sire's warrior guide and bbb.hidden-street.net as I'm not an axe user (or a hero at all):

Dragon battle axe is slow (7) which means fast (5) with booster. 74 attacks per minute with brandish.
Stonetooth is fast (5) which means faster (3) with boost. 87 attacks per minute with brandish.

Axe will need to do 1.18x dmg per HIT to compensate for the lower attack speed.

Stonetooth dmg per sec calculated here which I dont see any problems with.

	ST DPS:	ST DPH:	Axe req. DPH:
On apple	204,369	141,033	166,419
On stopper	176,946	122,092	144,069
On gizer	152,936	105,525	124,520

I'm going to use the same equips listed in that thread, which gives the axe user an advantage of 35 str over the ST user.
Total STR: 1260
Total DEX: 104
Total (Clean) ATT: X

2h sword has a weapon constant of 4.6
2h axe has a swing constant of 4.8 and a stab constant of 3.4
Swing to Stab ratio is 3:2 so an axe's effective constant is ((3*4.8) + (2*3.4))/5 = 4.24

Basically solving backwards through blas's calculations:

166,419 / 0.80 (avg hit converted to max dmg) = 208,023 per buffed brandish
208,023 / 1.9 (removing aca multiplier) = 109,486
109,486 / 5.2 (converting brandish dmg to max range on apple with echo, no aca.) = 21,055
21,055 max range / 1.04 (to cancel echo) = 20,245 max range on apple.

Now we bring in the warrior max damge formula.

Max dmg = (watk/100)*((k*str) + dex)
20,245 = ((X+100) / 100) * ((4.24*1260) + 104)
20,245 = ((X+100) / 100) * 5,446.4
3.71713 = (X + 100) / 100
371.713 = X + 100
X = 271 weapon atk (total) before apple.

Going back to the listed equips, we were looking at a 22 atk glove, 15 atk shoe and 15 atk cape.

271 atk - 22 - 15 - 15 = 219 atk on a perfectly scrolled (perfect godly clean) level 110 axe to be equal to a stonetooth when apples are in use.
I won't type out the calculations for stopper/gizer (same process), but the required axe attacks to keep up with those are 210 and 201 respectively.

 

What about Flairgraves? Flairgrave 1h Axe is Fast(5) with 105 att average. Flairgrave 2h Axe is Normal(6) with 110 att average. Seems better than what is available for Axe users at the moment. They required Neo Tokyo drops & the maker skill to make, but I'm sure they can just be added to Gacha as a rare item. The stab reduction still sucks though.

 

While I'm on my numbers spree~

a normal (6) speed axe would be 78 atks per minute vs 87 atks for ST. The (6) speeder would need to deal 1.12x as much dmg per hit to be equivalent. The required scrolled attack for that on apples/stoppers/gizers is 201, 193, and 187 respectively.

a fast (5) speed axe would be 87 atks per minute vs 87 for the ST. We're finally getting somewhere! However, the effective weapon constant for a 1H axe is 3.92. I'll assume for this calculation 5 30%s and 5 60%s for atk on a shield - that's 15 additional strength and 25 attack. The required attack on the axe to deal equivalent damage to a ST with apples/stoppers/gizers in this case is: 160, 154, and 150.

We finally found a reachable number. With a perfect godly clean 1h flairgrave, you're looking at 149 atk maximum. The extra weapon atk to tie on stoppers can be made up by white scrolling a maple shield to perfection (an extra cost of approximately 30b) though you'll never tie on apples. They would have to come from either shrine or NLC gacha though, for the supply to be anywhere near that of 110 stonetooths (easily the most common gacha'd weapon in the game)

As you can see, there is a MASSIVE difference between speed 5 and speed 6 (though only a small difference between 6 and 7) in damage. The slash/stab multiplier is a big deal, sure, but it's maybe 30% of the problem, with attack speed being the other 70%. If you have to resort to 1h axes to solve that, it's not the worst thing in the world, but I'm not sure what the attack range of brandish is with 1h weapons. That could drag up its own annoyances (though they're pretty minor compared to the damage discrepancy.)

 

If they put new weapons it won't solve much because it will take some time till there will be as many as stonetooths so what I suggest is changing the current weapons speeds slow-->normal and on 1h normal---> fast

 

Time to add points into axe mastery and booster

 

I agree (which is why I mentioned which gacha it should come from) but it's a good thought experiment.

Anyway, after running a few more numbers, and doing some reasoning, here are my (specific) suggestions:

Low level (sub-43) weapons: No change.
Reasoning: Low level characters are still in the process of maxing their booster and mastery skills. They arent restricted to using axes, so changes are unneccessary at this point.

Lv 43 Maple weapons: No change.
Reasoning: Because fighters, if they ignore rage (which they should, warrior elixirs FTW) have enough points to max both masteries and boosters, the logic to the previous case still applies. Further, no one is perfecting these weapons, and for the most part the people using them have low strength peripheral equips (top/bottoms, gloves, cape and shoes). The damage differences here are for the most part negligible unless a character is heavily funded.

Lv 64 Maple weapons: No change.
Reasoning: These weapons are where things start to matter. For most people, the lv 64 maple weapon is carrying you to at least 100, and for someone playing a first character you're probably relying on that accuracy until 4th job. These are going to be scrolled more heavily than the preceding tiers of weapons. That said, the attack speeds on the 2h weapons, which most people will be using are actually the same at this point (both normal (6)) and the axe has a slightly higher base attack (two points.) The axe still comes out slightly behind, but with the lower peripheral gear, lower attack pots, and lower base stats these characters are using compared to the examples I did above, it's more like 5-10 attack behind, not 40-60 which is completely tolerable.

Tomahawk (lv 100 1h axe): Buff to Fast (5) speed
Reasoning: The effective multipliers (4 and 3.92) for 1h sword and 1h axe are actually extremely close. With this speed change, the axe is still worse, but it's only about 2% worse. Again that's (imo) a tolerable margin, even assuming that people may be perfecting either spartas or tomahawks.

Dragon Axe (lv 110 1h axe): No change.
Reasoning: I don't know of a single hero that's perfecting a carabella. They are outclassed by sparta in the cost department, by claymore in the utility department, and by stonetooth in both power and availability for late game (180+) characters. I cant see any reason for an axe hero to be perfecting its equivalent.

Tavar (lv 100 2h axe): Buff to Normal (6) speed.
Reasoning: This becomes the equivalent to the claymore. It is the axe hero's bigfoot weapon. You miss out on a possible 3 attack in a perfect godly (114 vs 111), but the weapon drops from mobs rather than being rare perion gacha & crafting exclusive. For a weapon used predominantly as a niche item at a single boss and swapped out elsewhere, I say being able to 30% perfect ones without (much) fear and therefore reasonably possess both this, and a stonetooth equivalent comes out as a win in my book.

Dragon Battle Axe (lv 110 2h axe): Buff to Fast (5) speed.
Reasoning: This is the big take home. At the same speed, this weapon becomes equivalent to the stonetooth. Yes, it has an attack cap at 115 with the godly system. You're looking at an extra 3.5% attack on the weapon when all is said and done. Yes, it ignores the dex requirement that the stonetooth imposes. The change in total strength for these two though was 35 - that's 2.8% of the total strength of the character in the end game scenario. Compounding those, we get a 9.8% advantage for the axe user - but weapon constant has yet to enter the fray. The stonetooth is chilling at 4.6 vs the axe user's 4.24. Guess what? That's an 8.5% difference. The axe user escapes with a 1% theoretical damage advantage, in exchange for his weapon being far less common (must craft himself, or get lucky at perion gacha/HT drops, vs coming from the most commonly used gacha in the game and dropping from an area boss - black crow - and being easily the most common end game weapon on the server.)

If I can get some thoughts from the axe users (please be specific) or just from heroes in general (who maybe have more insight here than I do) we can ideally revise these suggestions once, and then submit this as a final proposal by tagging the admins like they asked.

@FerrariF430 , @tchab , @David , @Kobato

 

I had an Axe Hero on GMS before Neo Tokyo but after Temple of Time, so let me add a bit to your (well written!) post:

First off, 1h weapons don't ever catch 2h weapons on strong attack potions when considering straight damage range; Tim and Sybe proved that a long time ago. So, if we're considering a viable axe to match a Stonetooth, we're likely not going to find one; 2h multiplier with 1h speed is something that would not be matched with any non-gamechanging axe. The only factor that currently closes the gap between Stonetooth and the Claymore/Carabella/Sparta is the Stonetooth DEX requirement and the lower base attack of 110 compared to 114/112+shield. I'm going to move forward with the stipulation that, based on that and the slash/stab difference that I'm going to explain, no axe will ever be able to beat a Stonetooth user in DPS unless we're going to implement the Timeless Tabarzin (potentially 130 base atk with perfect Maker/weapon leveling) with a base attack buff.

Now, relating it to axes, by default, a 2h axe does 4% more damage on a slash and 26% less damage on a stab compared to a 2h sword, meaning that the standard Brandish (one slash then one stab) would do about 11% less damage per cast with a 2h Axe. That number does drop when considering 1h axes; a 1h axe slash does about 10% more than a 1h sword, whereas the stab does about 20% less, making the difference to a Brandish about 5% of your cast.

That means that your damage range would have to essentially be another 12% higher as a 2h user or ~5.25% higher as a 1h user to match the DPS of a sword of the same speed; in order for axes to be viable to match swords, they'd need to be able to beat a Stonetooth range, not match it.

When considering the fact that axes won't beat Stonetooth Swords, the difference between a 6speed Axe such as the Flairgrave or Reverse Tabarzin (112 average without maker/weapon level) and the Claymore closes, and the same with the 1h versions and the Sparta/Carabella. However, let me put into perspective what those percentage differences really are for an end-game Hero.

At end-game, since we aren't considering Stonetooth Swords, we need to assume that your stats are no longer moving (level 200, with finished gear) and thus that your STR and DEX are stable. Because of that, the only manipulation of range would come from total attack; everything else in the damage equation becomes a constant. That means that 12% more range would require 12% more total weapon attack. Using my own equips as a baseline with a 114 Claymore instead of my current sword, the number 200 for total weapon attack becomes the end-game goal; 149 Claymore, 20 SCG, 31 from Cape/FS. That would require an equal speed axe to have 24 more weapon attack in order to match the damage range of a Claymore, not accounting for players with better capes, gloves or shoes. When considering the 1h counterparts, a 112 Carabella with perfected Shield would result in 28 more total attack, thus the goal becomes 228, meaning that the axe difference is 12 weapon attack.

tl;dr:
1) It is essentially impossible for any axe to match a Stonetooth on Apples with end-game gear, unless a 5speed 2h axe is released.
2) For a 6speed 2h axe to match a Claymore, the player needs to have 12% more total weapon attack with the axe (24atk at end-game).
3) For a 5speed 1h axe to match a Carabella, the player needs to have 5.25% more total weapon attack with the axe (12atk at end-game).
4) Axes will always look cooler than swords (Gimli #1 Hero).

 

Thanks mike; the fact that brandish did 1 slash and 1 stab was something I was not aware of. That's a notable alteration to my calculations above. Rather than the effective multipliers I worked with of 3.92 for 1h and 4.24 for 2h, we're looking at 3.8 for 1h and 4.1 for 2h. With that in mind, the changes to my suggestions are the following:

(1) Tomahawk is 5% worse than sparta, not 2%. I don't think this is significant.
(2) Tavar is 2% (atk) and 11% (multiplier) worse than claymore. I think this is a significant difference and the suggestion is worth reworking. I dont see a way around it without changing both the speed and base attack of the weapon, which I am loathe to do. I tried to keep the changes minimal.
(3) The Dragon Axe may be worth looking at to fill the claymore gap, but I still don't like it.
(4) The projected 1% advantage for the fast (5) Dragon Battle Axe is actually a 1.5% disadvantage, and it still loses out in availability. I'm not sure how I feel about that one.

 

Here to show my support as a fellow Axe Hero! I'm really happy to see all this discussion on the topic.
While the formula for Brandish really messes up axes, it would be really nice to close the gap between swords and axes with speed buffs.

 

The brandish formula is what makes axe heros special. Bigger number for lower overall damage. That's a fact everyone can accept. However, the gap between overall axe and sword damage is much too large.

 

I have an idea that requires a small change but has a rather huge effect -
1: changing the skill axe mastery 60% mastery max to 75%
2: axe booster to add one more speed level

The mastery will improve min range and the booster will close the speed difference : colonian axe = stonetooth (swords will still be better but the gap will be smaller)