Notice Introduction of new game rule: Handling real world trade goods

everything i'd want to say has already been said in 8 pages so the only thing left to say is this server should be renamed goofyroyals for being so goofy

this is all so wack, there's just WAY better and more concrete solutions that putting GM responsibilities on players for any minorly significant trade. During american tax season too,, i already gotta guess how much i owe the irs now i have to guess in my not real life video game if the not real life item im buying with not real life currency will get me banned??

 

It takes a large amount of time and energy to crack down on each case. To make it even worse, there are players actively and secretly assisting rwt-er seller in laundering the goods and avoiding detection, in the name of "merch". We knew about it, and some players knew about it, but no action was taken. This type of "merch" is getting more and more common and we are going to stop it.
For example,

There was never an intention of shifting the burden of investigation to the player. In fact, we expected more reports and work from this rule. We do run investigations on our sides, and we are adding more tools and manpower in investigating rwt. However, we still need the community's help in combating rwt. At the end of the day, it's us as a community vs rule-breaker, not community vs staff. To maintain a fair and enjoyable experience for all, we need to work together to prevent RWT by reporting and raising awareness of such activities.

For example, this is a prime example of doing due diligence. She handled it very well and now it's very obvious that the seller is suspicious. The due diligence can be as simple as a couple of quick questions to reveal who they actually are. Unfortunately, there are players who accept their PM and move forward with the deal.

Spoiler: bad example

"you rwt-er?"
"no"
"k"

While I agree some details of this new rule can be fine-tuned further, the core will not be changed, which is punishing those orchestrating high value trades with suspicious individuals for large profits without doing the due diligence on their background. We are considering your feedback, such as considering raising the threshold to a higher number without letting the rule breaker slip away.

 

I appreciate the response from staff and I think the community as a whole wants the RWT problem gone, and all of your points are valid. The clear intent is to ensure people attempting to profit off of RWT are harshly punished for willingness to remain ignorant of the fact that their gear may or may not be legitimately sourced.

My concern is that I think this will only further add to false bans on innocent players. If you scroll through ban appeals, you can see a large amount of players either still pending review, or have had their accusations overturned, usually after several weeks. If the ban appeals system was fast tracked and there was not such a huge risk of losing months of playtime for false accusations, there would not nearly be as much backlash. The recent example with the suspected RWT apples, while I am glad it was resolved quickly, is not the same standard for many other players, some of which have shared multiple screenshots trying to prove their innocence with what limited information they can give based on memory. Many players play this game casually, and don't expect that the one time they have anything of value and openly display it, it will be challenged and scrutinized so severely.
The ability to identify between false reports and real RWT is a huge issue, and is not just simply resolved with more reports, which is the only outcome of the new rule. There should be a focus on staff side to find a better solution, however minor, to the core issue before trying to gather even more reports.

 

Absolutely agree and we all want to help to kill RWT.

However this should be a notice than instead of a rule, that is so way off its target, as elaborated in numerous posts now.

If you want to be together with the community, then you should not handle everyone as generally guilty.

As you speak about player experience, let me tell you what this rule does to me.

I was buying a WS today in FM, like few hours earlier. Nothing sus at all, the seller was a lv11x priest with random gear and some cute nx, so really just absolutely normal mule. She even wanted 5m more so we did 460m instead of 455m, so absolutely NOT sus at all.
However, when I interacted with her, she did not answer for like 30 sec, then we had some minor misunderstanding for a few sec, nothing big all together, it was still a nice trade after all and we both F2'ed in the end as we were both clearly happy about our encounter.

But wtf happened there? I was really paranoid, I had NO FUN AT ALL during the trade. I thought at 3 or more occassions that she is super sus - to myself - I double checked her profile again just to make sure again she is not like lv30 eventhough i could see her pyrope staff. Wtf did just happen to me, why was it not an easy and happy encounter as it had been before in countless trades?

This rule is killing the fun and it kills honest and friendly interactions, it shifts the player experience to the worse.

I think this rule is damaging the player experience, since it is not targeting mega crazy deals, endgame items only. The linked example by you is just such a different case to the example I just provided, it is an experienced person just acting like an experienced high-profile player would act in an environment that they are familiar with. It is also quite obvious in such extreme cases, but what about the regular daily encounters?

For these random ingame encounters that were and are a huge part of Maplestory, this is really bad as it worsens the player experience by a significant amount!

 

You didn't ask for the community's help in combating rwt. You threatened to ban them for not doing so. The fact that the staff fail to see this critical difference is extremely alarming.

Also, you didn't need this rule to ban OceanJon from assisting rwt, why do you need it for anyone else? There already exists a rule that says you cannot benefit from illegal activities - enforce it.

 

How do we contact you? Again - I asked this earlier. I haven't been here long. Just a few times. The ONLY time you've shown yourself is in an event. And with those hundreds of people, IF you respond to anything its one of you GMs harassing near the finish line.

It's not easy getting ahold of you. And making forum posts and hoping you'll answer fast enough it's not reasonable.
I am still waiting for a forum post I made a few weeks ago to have a reply - but nothing.

 

First of all, ouch, no need to get personal I don't harass people at the finish line

Second of all, making a report here is a lot better than PM me either in-game or on the forum because it could be left behind. Every report will be attended to, so I disagree with this:

 

so my guildie bought an MTK(over 1b) from zancks (a GM) in his store without asking zancks any questions nor did zancks ask him any questions. I had to go through the whole process of asking my guildie questions outlined on the rules when I was doing the trade for MTK(not through the store). This whole process is fked up because you can just sell a 1b+ item in store without having to go through this process of asking these questions because you have no control over who buys them!

 

It wasn't YOU , as in Kenny who stunned me at finish line until few seconds left it was another GM. I was generalizing.
I didn't mean that I reported someone before. I was asking on topic for trades. Getting ahold of you for trades is impossible.

 

This might not be relevant to the new rule directly, but is it possible to make

1. All the game accounts are linked to the forum account. Require forum account verification when logging in to a game account for the first time. Once players bind the accounts, they don't need to do this again.
ex:


2. Remove private forum account option.
Make all the IGNs public on the forum account IGN page.
Make all the accounts' logs public on the forum account Log page.
ex:


2. Make high-value trade logs public in a Log section.

Example of other p-server
they don't have a boss high-value loot log, but I think it's also good to add it.

 

I don't know too much about lost/find accounts aspect, it could be problematic.

 

With staff ignoring the extreme dislike of this rule from their entire community, the amount of false positives in ban appeals, and their guilty until proven innocent approach, this really does not look good as a whole. I get being a staff member is hard, especially for free, but it doesn't excuse things like this and quite honestly it is the absolute worst excuse.

Also are we forgetting some people don't speak english? Will you punish people when there is a language barrier? Other languages do exist.

I don't plan on quitting this server because I have made friends on it and I enjoy the gameplay. But I certainly will no longer be purchasing donor items now out of fear that with these new rules, and the lack of care about community feedback when it comes to such rules, that things may continue to go downhill like this.

 

So basicly you make it the players responsibility, good for you, kill the game for people who just want to play casually....

 

Not to belittle the point and someone else said it too but this isn't "help". This is telling players if they don't do something extra they can get banned. Rules are supposed to dissuade people from and punish people who do break rules. Making a player-to-player purchase in the game using in game methods as designed isn't breaking a rule and shouldn't be treated as such- in fact it's the backbone of what makes it an MMO and not a single player game with NPCs. We should be encouraging this interaction, not punishing it because some players abuse the system and RWT.

Are we going to start issuing bans if players don't report hackers too?

 

For those wondering about my ban and I cant be bother replying to the appeal as it will be useless...

I recently bought a 139att sky ski for 23b from a lvl 13x Drk that smegaed it and he did not look like a sus player. My perspective of the player was that he is quitting and wanting a quick liquidation to gamble and I was the first person to contact him by whisper. Sure I snagged a great deal and like many other players in this situation would also do the same.

How are we suppose to know that this person was associated with RWT he literally smegaed it LOL. Also why am I (and others) receiving a first offence for a rule that did not exist before we made the trade. This is a joke..

 

Royals staff wants to be the new world order. You'll own nothing and be happy

 

Hello friends.

Just wanted to pop my head in as a community member to chime in my humble 2 cents. I think 8 pages of discontent is enough to understand that there is backlash from the community. Instead of further displeasure, I think we should take a look at the positives here, and also sum up what was really said over the 8 pages instead of continuing to charge forward with our pitchforks. That way we can move forward objectively to come up with solutions the majority can agree with.

1. I'll start off by saying that although the delivery is a little off, the intention has always seemed good. Let's not forget the real goal as a community is to combat RWT/laundering of high-valued items, so let's focus on that - if we too, truly want that outcome.

2. Unpopular opinion: I disagree that the server has been running on "Guilty till proven innocent".

The why is simple, you were always innocent till something suspicious or the presence of solid proof came up. That is why there are ban appeals. The obvious move in their shoes is simply to do damage control and let you appeal. And I'm pretty sure after years of RWT screening, there is probably already a baseline on what constitutes as suspicious that is fair. They can't always be 100% correct - that's why an investigation is required with clarification from the accused.

The issue here is just simply those ban appeal responses took too long and that has given the impression that you are guilty till proven otherwise. This is a big point to note, but I'm sure (or at least hope) they are aware.

3. Now on to what has been discussed that I personally feel is relevant (might have missed some) that should be considered.

• The game experience is impacted - Paranoia and inconvenience are created for the players, and the game no longer feels fun.
• Doing due diligence in any form requires a minimum set of parameters that are sometimes not available to players, and at the end of the day, they can only take things at face value with the information they get, and therefore sparked the question of how much diligence is enough - in specifics officially.
  
  Examples:
  Forum search of name does not return results.
  
  Nothing is stopping an RWTer from just lying - more malicious ones can even randomly quote a more well-known player that seems to be legit on the forums. If they can RWT, or lie on ban appeals, what's to say they won't go to this extent? I highly doubt this happens for super high-value items, but the majority of the player base is impacted because of smaller items that are more than 1b.
  
  The choice of privacy is a right - unless stated otherwise. Players have a right to remain anonymous, and unless it becomes a rule that both parties HAVE to disclose their information in order to deem themselves as "not-sus", which to me may seem unfair to both the buyer and seller - should they end up still going ahead with the trade, because the rule does not say they have to disclose and it's up to their definition of due diligence if they believe they have a right to privacy - since it's not stated in the rules.
• Valuation of items - It would be difficult to determine pricing at that point in time if the trade was carried out a long time ago, both for the players and investigating staff, especially if ban appeals span over a few months.
• Hired merchants - There is an inconsistency here, as it is exempted from the rule. Due diligence is still required as Tim replied earlier, but this is even harder because all they have is a name. Many people I know don't even use their main accounts to open stores. Even if they do, the players still run the risk of searching up but nothing returns. On top of that, historically, merchants have also been a way to RWT anyway, and therefore should not be exempted if this rule is to be implemented in the way it is now.
• Reach of this rule (Or any other new rules for that matter) - Factually, it's not mandatory to create a forum account to have a game account, therefore a good number of players do not even know that this rule is being implemented - unless a new T&C is triggered on our next login every time there is a significant rule change, or they are frequent forum users. On top of that, there are plenty of non-English educated players in our community. We also need to be fair to them, therefore some form of action needs to be taken to ensure they are also aware. (Different languages T&C perhaps might solve this)
• Community participation - Personally I think this is one of the more prevalent comments made in the last 8 pages, and well.. for the last few years. I don't think most players felt they were involved in a decision that involved them having to do more than what they signed up for - to have fun. All I have to comment on is simply a rule I used to have with my sibling when I had to share a sandwich. 1 person cuts and the other chooses which slice to take. Why I used this analogy is simply this, both parties end up happy and it's deemed as fair. We can learn from the major successes of other companies, for example, Old school Runescape. Where they built their game around community votes and passed bills that were voted 75% or more. Not only do players get to be involved, you exactly know what they want or do not want. The best part? You (Staff team) get to choose the poll bills or veto if you want to if there are reasonable grounds.

Build off the amazing work you guys have done on community-built communication pieces (Staff blog was a great example).

These are just some of the pointers - but here's a TL,DR version.

• Community is asking to be involved in big decisions like these - especially those that involve them doing something, and exact specifics and clarity need to be given. Otherwise, it should be a feedback thread, not an announcement.
• Most agree that the priority should be placed on the player's gaming experience - as much as RWT is detrimental.
• Let's try to look at the positives - many care about this game that Royals have put together, and harsh words (because they care) were used in many posts, but remember guys.. mutual understanding and respect really do go a long way (Both sides have to be responsible for this). And I think it can't be overstated how much a simple thank you can go.
• Increased responsiveness within ban appeal - by increasing the ability for other staff members to do investigations or implementing easier/automated ways for RWT checks to be done (easy to say - but possibly difficult to achieve), the formal option will probably stem the bleeding first - therefore makes more sense.
• Increase the reach of rule changes/updates, preferably in multiple languages.
• Increasing the limit of 1b to up to 20bil before due diligence is required.
• Don't punish players for offenses that were not punishable initially if they took place before the official new rule.

Let's try to fix this together. I really believe we can, and I believe many from the community do.
And I apologize for the wall of text.

 

Its ok GMs have their own “price guide” to follow if he smega’d the sky ski for that low amount anyone with a brain would’ve bought it. RWTers can make the price so cheap that it baits people into buying it just to get banned??? lollll

 

Quitting the game over this. How i am supposed to sell leech and give the money to my other character in other account if im gonna get banned anyway?