In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Averaging around 30 on low funded mage is still broken considering the fact 2 hit skeles mage costs next to nothing to make. Hell, I think even my naked door mule can still do and he is actually a naked meme

That would be around daily 400-500m from three low funded chars and that’s not including boss drops, gacha you are getting from boss nx that piles up (5ks are rather common in my experience)+lhc totem gach+box. As someone who funded his char on nx farming/gacha alone, I know how broken that it when you slap another 400-500m a day along with LHC gach on top of it. I might even say in the long run, you will average more per day from doing that than the best skele leech sellers on the server with not even half the effort, these people invested a lot of time to 1h skeles at low level, judging by the numbers we have here. While “ez 50” might be an exaggeration on my part, the examples you provided are still kinda broken imo.

Well, I guess it’s time to create 6 low effort mages on one account (for sharing the nx from boss for gaching purposes) and enjoy my (almost) 1b in 4hours along with bonus nx and totems gach

 

Even with subani pot (+200magic pot for 10min that sky rocketed in value now ) as i can see from my runs with bishop it dosnt seem to have major or if any change on bees and it seems to be rng at 1800tma~ i still didnt mange to get 50 bees even on a full subani run got 37 and 42 while i got 47 once on loli and i dont get to see highr then 43 lately (loli is +45magic)
today got 27 LMAO on full loli run ?(it was perf run or just like all other i've done so far didn't take time off to collect etc and so on )
so not sure how players avg 50 or even 45+ bees and whats their setup to be also able to get that on multiple mages or attackers but fair play if is much higher tma/range to 1shot them or something like that well fair play i guess well deserved as i said it dosn't represent all other and if RG gets nerfed it will affect evryone else

So again i hope staff look in to data aswell not just some rumors, and also keep eye on prices i dont think RG has something or much to do with cs/ws prices as much as few RWT'rs that was going hard recently via item or reg smega with items for much lower prices then actual marke that caused all other to follow that even when they got ban

another thing that also suprise me now is when if there is high meso makeing content, those who make the most usualy go on shoping spree quickly and buy out things so why cs/ws that are takeing hard dive and are cheap (by far cheaper then month ago or so ) are not being grabed quickly or items like fs/scg that are also cheaper then month +- ago ?

 

Spoiler: About mages, again

I have heard, what, rumours of I/L s who don't even 100% 3 hit, average about 50 bees over 4-5 days (not just one high rng day), that claim the rest of us are just plebs who don't know anything about tc and optimal rotations. I'm not gonna quote who because these are only what I hear about.. acquaintances of a friend and idk who these people even are...?? I'm not saying it's impossible, but if the majority of high level mages (from what we hear on this thread and from the experience of ppl around me) are apparently noobs only get 40 on a good day, then we shouldn't base it off the top 1% of mages who are gods at this. I'm told I'm supposed to get more efficient at bee farming as time passes but I'm only getting worse . whoever you are please give us tips so we can get more bees thx.

People are very quick to say nerf mages too op, but some attackers (rip nl archers) are also getting high numbers (easily 30 average). Especially since there's way more incentive for attackers to apple this content (though I think most gizer) as they get tons of exp out of it. Is this content op for $$ in general? Yes, but it's not only mages. There are other problems with this content that everyone is ignoring in favour of once again arguing what jobs are better (even though I am a part of the argument myself, I think it is dragging on too long and going nowhere).

Before we restart the neverending discussion on which jobs are earning too much from this content, can we go back to the question of what we want to see from this content? How much mesos should we be getting? More untradeables? Should it even be a primarily meso-farming content? Exp-focused? The people actually balancing the content will probably have more accurate data on what jobs are getting what, rather than us arguing over it here. If we want to improve this content, what we should provide them with are suggestions on what we want we want the content to be, so they can adjust the actual numbers to closer reflect our ideal vision of it. We can scream into the void that the content isn't balanced, which is still important discussion, but after a point it would be more helpful to discuss what we think the ideal should be so the team working on it can actually balance it to fit that.

These were not at all perfect questions, but I was happy to see a few suggestions in response to this before it delved into "mage op" discussions again. I'm too dumb for any good suggestions myself, but I think it would be meaningful if we moved back into suggestions of what we hope to see from rose garden. Naturally, free to add better questions as well.

 

I believe only low funded AM can make probably high 20s-mid 30s on let’s say 3-5b funding. I think we can agree this is fairly low funding.

Fire weak map is bad, so you’ll need a lot more funding on that 3rd maps to 2 hit. Bishops is hard to even 3 hit because they dont have elemental amp.

The issue is you can see so many times in this thread people have this notion mages avg mid 40-50, to the point people have even said, you’re borderline trolling if you’re getting low 40s on a mage.

There’s several discussions here specifically pointing out low funded IL is a bit overtuned. But I, and several other people need to clarify not all mages are the same, and you need luck, good rotations, and a lot of funding if you want to hit these 30-40s on average.

 

I posted exact numbers before, but: 2hit is impossible, due to damage cap.

Bishops need around 1950 tma to 3hit (3rd map). 4 hit is reasonable if funded, at around 1650 tma.
IL mages need around 1450 tma to 3hit (2nd map)
FP I didn't do the math on but it'll be very similar to IL



So yes, if you're farming this content IL is the correct choice to do it on, especially with low funding. Lv 170-200 (as opposed to 134-15x for common skele sellers) adds a lot more tma, meaning the funding isn't that much more than skele. And of course you can trade most of your gear between them

 

I agree on pausing the discussion on balancing between classes until the content itself gets balanced relative to existing Mapleroyals content.

It may be easier to work backwards from what we want Mapleroyals meta to look like at the end and work our way into the specifics.

3 high-level scenarios:

1) Have RG overshadow all other content and destroy existing metas (current state)
2) Have RG be balanced relative to other content so people would run other content fairly equally
3) Have RG overshadow all other content but only in limited proportions so people would still run other content fairly equally. Either creating a system to limit the runs per player, or maybe releasing as a seasonal event with limited duration..

Let's say we all agree on 2). We want people to boss again, run other stuff again, and also run RG occasionally as much as everything else. The average player should log in and look at their options and not have RG take overwhelming priority all the time. For that to be accomplished we quite frankly need to drastically lower the income/hr and exp/hr to the level of other content. Whether that be bossing, partying or leeching, it needs to come back down to similar levels, then further balanced according to each so as not to destroy their metas.

The 4 variables to work with are:
1) meso/hr (includes items with market value)
2) exp/hr
3) untradeables (contains value limited to per char)
4) perceived difficulty (e.g. for leeching it is high, for solo content low)

It shouldn't be too hard to put together a combination of these that would be balanced to existing content.

For the people who are OK with the current broken rates, that's kind of saying you're OK to go with scenario 1) having RG overshadow everything. That may be fun and lucrative at the beginning but is that really good for the server's long-term health?

---

Also want to point out that RG has been up for 16 days. If we assume 80% capacity of the 20 channels and average 25 bees per run at 50 minute runs, that's 57b pure meso/day. Total till now would be 921b pure meso generated. The estimate feels like it could be higher given mage runs with more bees and faster runs, so it maybe closer to 1T pure meso generated til today.

Point is, if the general consensus for now is the meso injection rate is too high for the server we could opt to pause RG availability or lower the injection rate until a plan is put together rather then letting the problem get worse while waiting for the next iteration.

 

This is a wild and incredibly stupid statement. There are many ways of adjusting this content.

Nobody said anything about dual clienting, but keep up your bad faith arguments I guess...

Spoiler

1300 TMA 3.5 hit (his own words) by the way. I asked him what the difference between his runs and others claiming to be getting only 30-35 per run are, and he suggested that perhaps they're just bad at rotating and TCing.

I think it's very important to address the elephant in the room that this discussion has agendas, rather than pretend everyone here has valid and constructive opinions. Some people are trying to be informative and help. Others are trying to get rich quick.

There is incontrovertible evidence that this boss is soloable in 4.5 minutes, yet people are still pretending otherwise. Echo? MW20? Cheese? We know how mage damage is calculated. Even if they were on 1800 TMA somehow, we know how that clear time translates if that number drops to 1400. Clear and supported evidence is being dismissed as "unsubstantiated claims" and "word of mouth rumors."

Here is incontrovertible evidence that a 4 hit I/L mage can average AT LEAST 45, if not the 50 I previously mentioned (though he claims he should easily hit 55+ if he can 3 hit - someone lend him some op gear - and I believe him. Don't you?)

There have been great suggestions in this thread about the future of Rose Garden that makes it balanced for each class, doesn't ruin the economy, and doesn't turn it into Ellin Forest 2.0. Let's not let it get overshadowed by the selfish people who wants to exploit a broken system for their quick bucks.

Speaking personally, I've mostly been speaking on class balance but I do also believe as others that the overall income does need to drop, but have no clear idea by how much, or what substitute items will be appropriate, so I refrain from commenting on that matter overmuch. But I would like to speak in support in the general sense, and urgently as well.

Signed, someone running 5x RG daily.

 

I like how all sorts of accusations are leveled at me just for defending my class.



1) So you need godlike RNG and 139 skele club on Ritalin level TC to get 50? And this is the standard all mages should be held to? I'm not the only one getting 35-45 (and 45 is generous, got 40 today).
2) In one of the screenshots, they opened a box and got +10 to their powder, so they actually got 38 which is a very fair number.
3) "his own words" <<< keyword
4) In the earlier pages people were discussing duo clienters in rose garden. The Helen Keller comment was a summation of all the crazy things that have been said about mages in rose garden. They are obviously good farmers but people need to stop acting like we can sleepwalk through bonus and exit with 50 bees.

"Incontrovertible evidence" of <4.5 min solos with what??? Ssiws Cheese, which has inflated to the stars as a direct result of RG? Who would be so wasteful to use Cheese or even Pie against this boss on a daily basis? The mage potion prices (not pie of course, but cheese and lolly) are understandably rising. Also, spamming ulti on Cecilia's platform is inefficient as the summon only hits while the boss raises its arms, and you still need to dodge or you will get knocked off.

"Bad faith argument", "selfish", etc. etc. when mage mains' defensiveness is understandable considering this class gets nerfed for looking at the wrong person funny and actually has received an LHC-related nerf in recent memory. We're just wondering who's summoning these exaggerated numbers and endangering the class once again.

Before applying any negative changes targeted at mages specifically, I hope staff members (who have clearly designed this content with mages in mind, and that should be commended) actually try out this I/L secret route of legends. I mean, staff can do a tool-assisted/bot/double-assigned TC key or whatever run, determine the number of kills from exp gained, and put that against the drop rate of bees to see how it really measures out. For reference, 1699 TMA is enough to hit 199999 100%. Maybe a bit lower. It's somewhere between 1670 and 1699.

(P.S. make pies more available outside of Christmas would you? Mages are N/A in CWKPQ)

Signed, someone who actually plays a mage.

 

4.5min boss clear times

that picture you referenced was obviously posted to gaslight people like you who haven't actually tried running on these mages into thinking that mages are more broken than they are.
refer to this previous slower 6min13s clear with cheese that the same guy posted:

my point, at least, was that 4-6min boss clears are not the average, not that it's impossible.

averaging 45-50 bees as long as you're not a braindead player

i appreciate the screenshots but at the same time i find it extremely strange that everyone i've spoken to so far agrees that 45-50 is definitely not the average (again, we're not saying its impossible). unless everyone i know truly happens to be incompetent braindead players.

if your friend wants to gatekeep his rotation, maybe he can share his exp gain on i/l for just the bonus stage, and people who actually play i/l and report way lower rates can compare the mob killcount vs bee rates to see what really is going on here.

i think we all can happily buy your story and shut up then.

 

What do you guess to be an average class, other than mage, are clearing boss at? I'm decently geared and I mean decent as in I duo auf daily, and clear 20 min+ with my attackers(gizer).

How many bees do you think attackers get in average? It would depend a lot on classes, but with same RNG, I believe mages with same amount of gear gets at least 15+(even 20 with good roatations) than an average attacker. No matter how you try to make an excuse that mages aren't that good, there is a huge disparity.

And to the GMs that are trying to solve this balance, I hope you take that into consideration.

Thanks.

 

I don't think anyone in the last few pages at least has denied that mages clear the boss faster than attackers on equal funding.
Neither has anyone denied that mages on average get more bees than attackers on equal funding.

Most of us are just dispelling the myth that mages average 4-6min boss clears and 45+ bees on naked mages. Some people genuinely believe that these are the average because of a small amount of OP mages or apparently godlike telecasters. That's analogous to using @lxlx rates on his stacked DRK on apple and then concluding that warriors should be nerfed in RG. I sincerely hope no one actually thinks warriors need to be nerfed.

Rose Garden as a whole and more specifically Mages should be balanced, yes, but not with those wildly inaccurate average figures in mind.

 

Just so you all don’t need to talk about the mage boss time much more. We will adjust it so attackers can be faster than mages at the boss. General balance and bonus changes are still being discussed and tested internally. Meanwhile it would be interesting to hear what average income you would expect from this ~45min content. We want to aim for something rewarding yet not too punishing if you don’t run it everyday or on all your characters. Thanks for the feedback thus far!

 

Hello, interesting read on how many bees people been getting. I’m wondering if people can share the amount of bees they’ve been getting on their warriors?
I’m a 187 pally and the amount of bees I’ve been getting is something like this (mw20+gizer)
First few runs I got up to like 25-30 bees per run
Lately I’ve noticed a huge drop and could get anywhere from like as low as 15 to 20 max.
I think most bees are from stg 2, (tried stage 3 and barely got 10-15 f3)

On my lvl 200 hero probably average 20 and below (I don’t do much on hero because it’s so dreading)

how are people getting 30-40-50 bees? Is it because people usually use apple/stopper minimum ?

What causes bee to spawn? Just kill more mobs faster? Rng?

 

Every mob you kill has a certain chance to spawn a bee. So there is RNG and your kill amount involved, yes.

 

Well these "OP mages" with TC and gear are going to become a norm if RG doesn't nerf them to the right numbers. When you balance a new content, you dont nerf them to the average new player, but to it's capabilities of taking them to the extreme, which sadly Royalers are great at(Ulu multimage farming, Duku farming, LHC farming, etc...). We've seen what a decked out attacker can do and a decked out mage can do. How do you think we should balance them?

 

How difficult is it to just hit Win+Alt+R just before you enter bonus, record doing bonus room, stop the video once done, and then upload to youtube as unlisted and share video in thread under spoilers? Takes less than 5mins and can prove people wrong

 

Boss HP does not need to be changed for mages. Not everyone has a 1500tma bishop. Some of us have heavily mp washed bishops with high hp and mp. They were made to survive all bosses (auf) not for selling leech and as a result have around 1070 tma. It takes me twice the amount of time to kill the boss on my bishop than it does my shads. My 1309 tma i/l is level 151 for selling leech and cannot RG.

 

I don't think I could even clear RG if i didn't have gear on my attackers... Your wish of making RG viable for 0 gear mages, should not be how the game goes.

 

I think "how much?" is the wrong question and it should rather be "what should it drop?".
In my opinion, you should first get rid of the pure meso and work around with items/exchange system - that's the main issue.
It doesn't have to be a "how much" situation if you can get Ifia rings or other untradeables together with some NX/totems and perhaps items that you can sell.

 

At no point did I say I want to make RG viable for 0 gear mages. I have gear on my mage. Stop making stuff up please.