In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Well I believe the harder something to do, should equal how much you make.

The Hurdle of going to RG:
1. Being level 170+
2. LHC prequest
3. Have clearable gear(which depends on the class too much)

Compared to other bosses or content that requries so much more(gathering people for bossing, requirement of several different classes, trying to find a buyer, and having so much RNG based on drops), RG is just insane. RG is a solo content, dont need any attack pots, any class can run it, much less RNG(with bees) and currently RG is superior in every aspect unequivocally.

Yes, since its a new content, we want people to run it(thanks GM for working so hard on a new content! kudos), but it should be somewhat better than the existing content.

The expected earning of the current RG currently from previous posts sits around at 400m/run+ for mages and 200m/run+ for attackers(reading previous posts). I believe the number should be at 160m/run ~ish.

WHY? Compared to other end game content

Comparing to 1 hour of Skele leech, which has much much higher hurdles, with RG being only once a day should put it at par value.
Comparing to AUF, which requires the full NT quests partners, you yield about 160m per run when duo(from my experiences).

 

Well you did say...

lvl 170 mage has about 900 base int + 90 with mw20 + 160 shitty wand? So yeah no gear. Sorry if you didn't mean that, but thats how I read it. No offense.

 

Fair dinkum! Makes sense. Thank you

 

No offense taken. I think you completely missed my point and got it all wrong.

 

Unfortunately I agree that I do not think we should take into consideration mp/hp washed bishops.

• There's a reason a lot of people made their bishops like that, to reduce the costs of washing it by scuffing its INT as a shortcut. Is this not the consequences of such actions?
• In theory you could fix it but I have no idea how much you have in there, I'm going to assume it'll take you at least 3b, at most 8b.

Just as I would never agree to nerfing the HP on 3rd Job Advancement boss to facilitate Nightlords who just added fresh HP/INT instead of LUK.

I myself spent a lot more mesos washing my bishop to only ~10k to unscuff it specifically for useful future content (not I don't do it though on my bishop, hes only lvl 154 and I don't want to mage garden personally).

If I scuffed it I probably could've gotten to like 12-13k easily, but I wanted to keep all my INT.

I'm not saying nerf it specifically so naked/scuffed mages clear it slower, but we unfortunately shouldn't really be thinking about them at all in regards to our mage balancing and if they suffer greater consequences, you're all more than welcomed to fix them with mesos, but I do not think we should consider their meta state in RG.

 

if this is true and for balance why not expose that method and help make RG balanced for all ?
how is fair compared to the 200 players with near or BiS items useing expensive boosters to get same or lower rates then someone on a 175lvl mage (sorry nothing personal)

if is not done by those op funded players and is just some secret op tc-rotation without need of tma/range (higher or max lvl + well funded gear+ high pot booster) to avg such higher rates that they can also just move to mules that and keep geting such rates or even higher if they put gear and boosters

yea RG should be fixed and looked in to some balance AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

i agree that RG should not overshadow other content but also what other content we talk about ? multimage mules shouldn't be a thing and there should be balance and limits just like RG

don't know this part many had nice ideas i think RG should be benchmarked somwhere to be around or bellow LHC 6 players party (not the mule version),HT with 5-6 players including bs, auf/cwk trio/quad rates

 

what i don't understand is, theres already 324324 ways to earn mesos, what's the point of adding another method to earn mesos?

I honestly feel like this is a missed opportunity to create more depth and garner more interest towards von leon content.

 

1. General Community wanted a method to make mesos at a rate closer to multi-mage farming because multi mage farming is "cringe"
   
2. A method to make mesos at a competitive rate to multi-mage farming, maybe around 75-85% as effective as Hexa-Mage
3. Fun realization by the community, nobody likes doing multi-mage farming, even multi-mage farmers, if theres solo clienting content almost as effective.
4. All the multi mage farmers move to rose garden to run on 3-6 characters, maps are competitive now during peak hours.
5. Unlike multi-mage farming (startup costs of making 4-6 mages), there is no excuse to not do Rose Garden on all their available attackers, so players now feel fomo (fear of missing out) when they don't do all their characters because the multi-mage farmers are 100% content with just abusing it on 3-6 characters like drinking water, because, multi mage farming is so much worse to do.
6. Turns out the solo content encouraged players who would not normally farm to farm this content as well on multiple characters, too many people printing mesos, its 2017 Ulu all over again.
   
7. Rose Box CS Rates
8. The community who just wanted something to make good mesos playing 1-2hours a day

Spoiler: The community

 

After spending a couple hours going through the 11 page essay, moo would like to agree and add on to what @fuzzything44 mentioned when it comes to the balance of RG.

-Nx is in a good spot and should not be touched.
-Totem should be tuned to 15~30 instead of the current 35~70+. Considering box reward also gives totems, in comparison to an average BW LHC stopper run being about 75~85 for normal players, the total time of 15 minutes ~ (being 1/4 the time of LHC) of pre boss to boss, totem number should not be as high as it is right now. This should also stop the over saturation of LHC gach jackpots with the injection of totems we're getting.
-Remove cs from box reward, it overlaps with LHC totem gach, further decreasing cs value, already seen the impact in current market.
-Bee value tuned to 3m instead of 5m. (on the basis of bee spawns keeping at current rates) This should lower the amount of mesos injected into the game, while maintaining the liveliness of the current market. Prior to RG, the market was very dead, since most farmers are on break after CNY event, which is part of the reason scroll prices started crashing. This is giving a new way for the regular players to move the market instead of it being solely dictated by farmers. It should also deter farmers from abusing RG, since the meso value should still be equal to or lower than pepe farm, while RG has enormous prequest and level requirements in comparison. It would still be an incentive for end game mage players to do if one's getting 40~50 bees (120m~150m) in 30 minutes bonus, while the average player would be getting 20~35 (60m~105m).
-Box reward needs more variety, while maintaining Ifia's ring being the highest %. A grindable BIS ring should be enough incentive for players to run RG on the regular, barring the completion with rng box on top of godly roll is in a suitable spot at the moment. The rewards only being 1 dust/10 dust/PE/Elixir/Ring/Ring scrolls/totems/CS(which shouldn't be in this) is way too small of an item pool.
-Make gizers drop like pap instead of the current dropping 1 or 2 almost every run. It's being collected more than it's consumed.

These are the most prominent balancing issues that moo think should be adjusted. Since boss hp is already being tuned, and Ifia's earrings drop rate changed, moo won't mention these further.
Moo didn't mention exp because moo isn't an expert at gauging exp since moo never pay attention to it, while already having two 200 attackers. Though the combination of exp gain + the wide arrange of rewards should already be an massive incentive for players to continue running this content.
Regular etc drop doesn't need a new function to them as some are suggesting, 99% of the in game's etc are useless, adding another reward to RG is overkill considering the exp/nx/totem/ring/earring/mesos already being earned in a 45 minute run. This should only be considered if there is further removal of the previously mentioned rewards.

On a side note, the amount of disingenuous comments and hypocrisy is wild, running 5+ characters in RG while simultaneously calling against nerfs as they watch their current profits rise is beyond moo. This content is not balanced, hence why it is being discussed and work is already underway by staff.

 

Economically, RG should lead to an Inflation, not a Deflation. More money, same economic boundaries = Inflation.

To prevent hexa mage abuse, I think that fixed nets per ip is the only way. I think most ppl agree by now that pure meso should be changed into different (potentially untreadable) rewards.

There is another option nobody mentionned yet.

How about the community decides to not abuse this content, similar to content like Manon, so that Mapleroyals is not permanently damaged? We all know, devs will not react in time, so we could also just say, lets not abuse the S out of this content, just because it is our private server all together and we can decide how to make all this happen alltogether.

 

Zancks asked us to move on so let us do so.

Here's some updated numbers regarding overall value, from 62 runs.





*For the purpose of this breakdown I used Estimated Totem and NX value, not actual, as real results may badly skew the findings based on RNG. Still, I have posted both my Expected and Real gach outcomes, so you may draw your conclusions from there.

Here is the table I used to value my box rewards. That said, I understand my box proportion may be lower than others as apparently a lot of people are pulling CS and 9+ luk earrings like candy?
It was also unclear to me how to evaluate the value of an untradeable ring, but as buying a Krex Ring costs 40m and this ring is decidedly worse, I tentatively placed it at 20m. It should not have an outsized effect either way.



So from this we see that Bees are the primary income source of Rose Garden (understandable), and that NX has an even lower reward structure than most of you might expect. I further believe that Moo's suggestion of 15-30 totems (22.5 average) is a tad bit too low of a reward given that to a lot of people, mostly the uber rich, Rose Garden is their way of farming totems necessary for completing Von Leon craftables. The current average, as seen above, is in the ballpark of 53, and perhaps 3500 nx.

I tentatively propose the following suggestions, some already stated:

Balance:
1) Reduce mob count and increase hp, spawn chance of bees (ideally most AoE melee can hit 2 with a bit of mobbing, and mages will hit perhaps 5-7 average mobs)
2) Increase duration of bees, to help bring lesser effective classes (classes without wide AoE mostly) at chasing to par
3) Maybe make map 2 worse, or add a nice TC spot in map 1 so you can not take 20 years climbing up the rope (assuming suggestion 1 nerfs mages overall, would be nice for the f/ps)

Overall Changes:
1) Reduce totem count to 35 average, perhaps 20-50?
2) Reduce total bonus timer from 30 minutes to 20 or even 15 (more than anything else, it's a massive time sink for the limited Royals population)
3) Reduce the incidence of negligible rewards from boxes (50% of drops are elixirs, power elixirs, or single honey) and replace it with untradeables (ring obviously, maybe a Ifia Ring only scroll/craftable component as someone suggested earlier)

Replacement Items, if we're going for a trade-in system:
*Here again I state that I have no proper grasp of the Royals economy, though I rather suspect few if any actually do, so these are just some random thoughts
1) It was pointed out to me recently that there is no real supply of face int scrolls, and non-dex face scrolls in general
2) In keeping with the theme of LKC, a 2-stat 100% belt scroll that only works for VL belt might be nice for people who can't or won't CS for w.att
3) Personal bias, but a rare chance for a chair would be nice

It is unclear to me how one might properly reward runners while excluding Purification Totem items such as ws/cs/taru et al., so might have to just bite the bullet there, but hopefully others will have more creative solutions.

Thanks for all your hard work again.

 

Crunching some numbers based on this and new info:

Assume bee 3m / boss+box reward ~50m total value
Assume mage boss 12mins / attackers 10mins / first 2 rooms 6mins
Assume bee rate 5% -> 20 mobs per bee -> 150k exp/mob / 20m exp boss

Mage 50 bee / 48min = 200m or 250m/hr (187m/hr pure meso), 170m exp
Mage 40 bee / 48min = 170m or 212m/hr (150m/hr pure meso), 140m exp
Attacker 30 bee / 46min = 140m or 182m/hr (117m/hr pure meso), 110m exp
Attacker 25 bee / 46min = 125m or 163m/hr, 95m exp
Attacker 15 bee / 46min = 95m or 123m/hr, 65m exp

Observations:
- As a mage 40 bee, the meso/hr is slightly above skele leech - as solo content without any commitment this still feels unbalanced. Why should leechers have to pay all their costs of setup/commitment and make less than someone whose running solo content at their leisure? The argument that mages mob better does not translate/justify the jump from average solo content mesos -> leeching levels.
- As an attacker 25 bee, I'm still making 2-3x the meso and get 2-3x exp compared to bossing. It still doesn't seem like a very hard choice between this or bossing.
- In my opinion the raw income rates still need to be further lowered to under bossing levels (as well as the exp) to maintain the incentives for bossing.
- There isn't really any basis for the idea of allowing solo content to suddenly have high meso/hr rates without expecting existing content to be thrown out of balance or made obsolete. If RG is going to be made viable but balanced, it's incentives would need to come from something other than income.

 

We already have a 60% that gives 1 stat... so maybe buff it to 2 stat and also require bees to craft or something? And burning energy please give me a use for all of the energy I get

 

While alot of players came with great suggestions, I'd like to just add that if Rg would have some sort of exchange path it could be nice.

Maybe have it that etc drop exchange for items and pots similar to ellin forest exchange.
Aldo make the bee's exchangeable for some worthwhile item instead of raw meso.

I for one, as a casual, average player will probably never set my foot in VL boss, since I don't have the time , hp nor gear.
So vl exchange stuff I have no use but some people wants this, so maybe make a selective list of stuff people can trade in , scrolls? Pots? Items? Be it untradeable.
Maybe possible to exchange for some sort of cs/ws that is on a 3day/cool down untradeable

 

As mentioned, won't discuss exp since not an expert, but exp is present in every content, it being a lucrative leveling method daily is part of the incentive. You don't just broadly assume boss+box reward as a certain value, plus the suggestion of removing cs and adding more variety while keeping ring as the main reward will move the profit away from box. You're also biased on your view in comparison to leeching, while disregarding the setup and commitment of the lv 170 and LHC prequest requirement to run RG, on top of the fact that it is limited to once per day compared to anytime for a leecher (ofc time to find buyers). Further more, you're also ignoring the profit you gain from equip drops while leeching, plus the comparison from a player to player service to a player to game content in of itself is a flawed argument. That's why it's more compared to pepe farm which is purely farmed solo without any player interaction (excluding orbis etc prices). 3m bees is a number moo landed on that felt adequate to both the investment and rewarding aspect of running RG, if it needs further adjustment then it can be tuned further. Your comparison to the "bossing" you do is too broad, which boss? Are you refering to end game bosses like HT or AUF ? or entry level / mid tier bosses? For the high requirements, rewarding end game solo content to funded mages helps revitalize the class which is only coming close to an end game boss' profit margin, yet still lower than hexa mage farms. Attackers having lower profits from bees should also deter some players from feeling the need to grind out the bonus room, which you have the choice to still gain mesos from doing (which is a rate slightly higher than regular farming mob drops in any high level map, or apq) or leaving and taking the already rewarding boss plus box rewards.

 

I've only skimmed through the last half of this thread so forgive me if someone else already suggested the same ideas :

- Make Rose Garden a party content and each member gets their separate bee spawns, limit it to one client per person at a time to prevent multimage
This is a social game meant to be enjoyed with guildies/friends, alot of people like myself prefer to spend quality time with others instead of playing solo content


- If this content is deemed to be too broken because it gives large sums of both Mesos and EXP then reduce mob EXP and make Powders exchangable for either Meso or EXP
That way players get to choose between high EXP or high Meso instead of getting the best of both worlds.

 

I didn’t want to include myself too much in this feedback thread, since i’m probably one of the biggest offenders out there when it comes to injecting mesos via multimage into the server. Heck its fucking broken LOL.

Well, looking at RG, meso injection is entering into a more severe case right now, If this isn't addressed, it could lead to the worst case of inflation we've experienced in the past 10 years of royal’s history.

Yes, yes you heard it boys. Value of mesos is just decreasing day by day, making it less valuable.

Comparing it to quad/hexa or whatever multimage, the amount of mesos it injects remains somewhat controlled since the players limit knowledge to only their friend groups, and there is also a good amount of burnout over time.

But what RG brings is much more concerning since every other player can or eventually can do it.
Aaand would be the go to mesos making choice, oh i guess there will still be your multimage farmers LOL, so add those in too.

Quite a big yikes huh.
oh wait yo RG injects CS too LMFAO.

But hey what do i know, maybe crowley and friends are gone thats why we need a powerful mesos injection instead of more meso sink.

Don’t nerf it, rework it.

Just a retired oldie’s 2cents.

 

Im just curious, can someone explain to me in a very detailed or detailed to a certain degree. How does Rose Garden per se causes meso injection that ultimately leads to inflation. Your detailed response will be appreciated.

Thank you. If this is not relevant please ignore.

 

This is a totally legitimate and relevant question that I'm sure other people have. To put it simply, Rose Garden is content that is accessible to many end-game players that they can use to farm for rewards. These rewards include a large amount of pure mesos. This is unlike most other forms of content that players can use to farm for rewards (e.g., Heartsoppers, Gachapon, Onyx Apples), which provide items that are worth mesos rather than pure mesos.

The key distinction is that rewards that peovide pure mesos essentially inject those mesos directly into the server's economy. Whereas most other rewards are items that are merely worth a certain number of mesos, and therefore do not inject mesos directly into the server's economy. When there are more mesos in the economy, the value of mesos necessarily decreases in that economy. This means that all players will require more mesos to purchase the same items from before, such as Chaos Scrolls and White Scrolls. This is in essence, inflation.

If more details are needed, I'm sure a veteran player with more experience in this and other end-game content can chime in.