In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

I would like to be able to do something with the 2000+ (already tossed 400) burning energies on my FP that doesn't involve untradables from VL.

 

And another day goes by without any of the mage balance concerns here addressed by staff.

Rip mages D:

 

Another day goes by without addresses to the concerning 5% ring drop rate

 

it is 10% drop rate all along

"can't fix your bad luck" - Confucius

 

Why is the drop rate so bad for a ring that has worse stats than a krex ring? Feels backwards

 

Isn't Almighty Ring still BiS? 8 all stat 2 slot versus 7 all stat 1 slot? Krex is twice a day, free and takes around the same time (40minutes). Sure, you dont make 100-150m a run but you are guaranteed 2 rings a day for your efforts. I wouldn't and I am not advocating for the Ifia ring drop rate to be a 100% guarantee but saying 10% is reasonable really surprises me.
If we're going to be worried about other rings currently in circulation becoming obsolete or affecting their economy, would it be reasonable to suggest some kind of bee powder exchange for a 1stat all Ifia ring for say 100x powders? Maybe add a ring stimulator or larger powder amount for a chance at godly roll?

Pros; mesos sink, people like me complaining about the horrible drop rate now have a chance at a guaranteed ring

Cons; endgame nl/shad only need 1/2 roa, not 2/3?

 

I think a lot of the damage has already happened, just from the ring existing. But looking at ROA sales from the first few days after it was announced should give a closer idea, before people figured out how terrible the rate is. I don't have the data on that - you'd have to ask for the logs.

Miwok is still BiS, and RoA is still BiS for mages and people not in endgame (look how much cheaper VL shoes are just from being lv 140 - now think about a lv 170 untradable)

Ephenia is relatively cheap from a pq that gives quite good exp.

Really I think the issue comes from the ring being able to go godly - if it was just allstat 0-2 1 slot, no godly then it would be fine and require people to still invest in chaosing them, for only marginal gains over a tradable roa. But it's too late to fix that now, so instead we need to figure out what to actually do with it. I'd personally say 20-30% drop would be reasonable, or give players an (expensive) way to get more.

That's one of the issues I see with RG right now. The NX is actually reasonable, but totems really should be halved (or even lower). Clearing boss in 10 mins repeatedly (pretty achievable if you have decent gear, and then trade it all to the next char) is ~300m/hr which seems wayyyy too high

Seeing as mage farming ability has continually been the reason to exclude them from 90% of endgame content, this feels like a massive middle finger to mages - not only are you continuing to be excluded from bosses but now other classes can do "your" thing AND still boss.

... for far less profit, or far more effort for similar profit, to the point where it seems worth it to just make a ton of Rose Garden mules instead (except since it's new there's the fear that it'll be nerfed right after finishing)

Roughly accurate, I got 1650 to 4hit. And ~1900 to 3hit. IL is ~1450 to 3hit, but yes I agree that's a separate discussion that I don't feel qualified to provide data on. Map layout/spawn can be used somewhat to help balance between mages.

Not necessarily the worst, especially seeing recent cs/ws prices I think some pure meso might help. But it should be very carefully monitored to see widespread effects on the economy, and if necessary, a new longterm meso sink should be planned/added. The issue was mostly on release a LOT of meso was added since it was being run much more for that cs chance.

Giving mages something else they excel at (preferably solo client) would be great and help a lot. But from a player's perspective I've only seen "no we can't do that, mages are too good at farming," so I have very little hope of that ever being a thing.





I'd like to thank you for your response and letting us know that the feedback here is being read, and hopefully RG changes are still possible

 

they are both BiS since we have 4 ring slots. excluding krex and some weaker rings we currently have:

• valentines ring (approximately 8~9 stat): obtainable once a year and pretty easy to get -> doesn't beat max-stat ifia
• wedding ring (9~13 stat): takes ws + 10%/30%, still pretty costly -> can arguably beat max-stat ifia by 1 stat through absurd luck/cost
• miwok (8 stat): obtainable once a year, requires RNG to roll -> doesn't beat max-stat ifia
• roa (6 stat): single stat is cheap but price goes up crazy (10~18b historically) for stacked 6-stats -> doesn't beat the max-stat ifia

so it's pretty apparent that RoA has the biggest chance of getting replaced by ifia and therefore its obtainability should really be benchmarked with RoA costs for now imo. considering that a max-stat ifia will most certainly be the next BiS after the krex ring slot and how rewarding RG already is without the ring at all, I would say the rate is in a pretty good spot now.

 

yo i want more bees please

but bis rings imo:

ifia ring (max primary stat)
miwok ring (max primary stat+some secondary stat)
krex ring (max primary stat)
valentines day ring 2 carat

(excluded rings that are no longer obtainable like the 2013 beginners ring)

 

Please, don't nerf bees too hard. I think its fair if your attacker is strong and better at mobbing then you shouldn't be punished for making slightly more money in RG. Should I be penalized for having perf Flame Sword+Shield that makes my Hero/Paladin go POG in RG while someone else with 130 Stonetooth can pull same numbers as me?

Will we finally be able to consider making a FP mage to lv 200 with split bossing/farming (Zak/HT/NT) instead of only farming/LHC? LF>Teasers

 

I think alternative mage content that isn't quad ulu/selling leech is healthy for the game.

This is off topic, but I've already provided feedback on RG so here it goes anyway. I think mages would have more bossing power if Pink Bean was released. IIRC this is due to Pink Bean's physical damage resistance; you can see this in other private server metas, where people take mages at Pink Bean for magic damage/clearing trash mobs.

 

So what happens when people start make-invest in drk/hero/shad/buc/pala "mules" to farm RG and bonus bees (where drk and shad exceeds rates by far then all other even with lower fund) nerf again? thats the team that allready has LHC partys going on so it not that hard to reach RG aswell

but am mostly disapointed in the mage nerfs (not just with RG but with all other content) that is constantly nerfed or excluded from content and events and be thrown as naked mule low lvl farmers...

but it is what it is like other said get used or move on... i don't agree but oh well

 

There are multiple issues - let's address them one at a time.

1) RG released as end-game content this late in the server's age - should be equal for all classes, not skewed towards any particular classes. So, let some data be gathered to compare low/mid/high funding results between attackers and mages and make them balanced, shouldn't be that hard.

2) RG income is overtuned still - I agree as my average 185 hero (with 37 cgs + 129 st ~10b funding) is making ~225m/hr off-event (~360m+/hr during event) average when I used to farm maps for scrolls at 60m/hr. Needless to say I have never seen this much meso before coming in that fast. Actually I'm more concerned with the event rates since it is seriously crazy right now probably due to the drop rate affecting RG results multiplicatively. Off-event rate is still very good but not as broken due to the 40min cap and the grind is still a deterrence at times. I believe more funded players are getting 1.2-1.7x more than my above listed rates which is scary to think about.

3) Mages were designed to be farmers, not bossers - this is a fundamental design of old-school Maplestory. If fundamental roles like these are changed, it wouldn't be old-school Maple anymore. It would probably start feeling like some of these other private servers with custom classes and skills. RG was created to fill in the niche of solo attackers be able to make high income. Yes there was a niche, but wasn't this niche part of the class balance? Attackers are good at bossing, farming boss drops and income. They should suck at making income through farming or at least be capped so it's less than mage farming. I personally wouldn't mind if RG income was halved (and maybe ring drop ^) even then it would still be good income for what it is.


tl;dr - RG should be equal to all classes since it was introduced so late in the server's age and should still be tuned down significantly as to not fill a class balance breaking niche.


Edit - as I think about RG designed to "fill in the gap for solo attackers to make stable income" this point really needs more justification. Why should attackers have advantages of other classes? Why not then say "lets fill in the gap for mages to boss well" or "lets fill in the gap for NL's to do map-wide attacks". Point is gaps may and should exist between classes since each has specific and unique roles to fulfill.

 

Out of curiosity is 225m with appling the content and somewhere around 35~40 bees and you're including NX/Totems?

I think its near impossible to balance content for all classes, I guess you could argue for sure put a little bit more power back to mages, but I personally think its fine to have skewed content. Most content should have strengths and weaknesses of class niches.

Krex/Zak/Toad/BGA are all pretty solo attack heavy. While Arms are mutli target yes, arms is such a small portion of zak's total HP.

To be quite honest, single target attackers also thrive more in end game area boss farming. An average corsair/NL with SE mule will melt Anego/ToT bosses/Levithans/Samurai compared to most warriors

Auf is very clearly single target where heroes/drks have almost no place at all since unfortunately, they cannot really pin it unless they have an absurdly high range and/or are on a pot higher than apple.

AoE attackers thrive in VL/LHC. Nightlords are basically banished from almost all LHC content outside of Golems. I've had failed recruits where someone would add a NL as one of the attackers and 1-2 people would immediately leave lol

HT is pretty weird. AoE attackers outside of Shadowers aren't very welcomed. You'll rarely find a smega party that'll gladly welcome 2 warriors, many don't even want one outside of a Paladin. So I won't touch much on HT.

The closest we have to balanced content I feel is CWK, you do need 2 single target attackers and 1-2 AoE Attackers.

I think RG was mostly balanced/released with AoE attackers in mind. I think it looks so unfair because other mage-bossing friendly content doesn't exist at the moment. I think it's inevitable they'll feel massive fomo as we dont' have lightning speed releases. I think its a good idea to just make the next future content have a bit more mage love to give them something to actually work towards and incentivize them to gear up without just making them a new BiS farming map. And yes when the time comes, I'm sure they'll also release new single target content, show SE some love too thanks

 

I have to respectfully disagree with this take. You may be right that if RG rewards were designed that way ( rewarding att pots & stuff ), some players wouldn't bother with RG at all. Is this a bad thing though? As of now, RG is the most popular meso earning system in the game, where almost everyone is doing it. It's no longer a matter of choice for players, you want meso? Go RG. You want more meso? Go RG with more characters. That's what this is.

Do you truly believe that a generic meso earning system where every level 170 character has access to and can simply generate 150m+ in 40 minutes is healthier than untradeable potions? Also, the usage of these kind of potions aren't limited to von leon only, so i don't really see this as something that is only catered towards players that does von leon. Some people would do it for faster HT time, some people would do it because they're not geared and feel like they need a boost for their boss runs. Some would do it just to hoard, and if the old xp rate was brought back, some wouldn't even care about the rewards and just doing rg for the xp. In terms of how untradeable pots would impact the apple market, that would be up to the balance team to find that sweet spot then.

Also, with an exchange system, there's always the potential to add more incentives to run RG in the future when theres more content added.

Right now, this whole rg system reminds me of those mobile games where you need to login daily for your daily login reward. Login today and do RG for your daily 200m!

 

Just gonna add in on this, the key difference is that mobile games (or those that I have come across) do not have trading of ingame currency thus making dailies truly... Dailies... Imagine doing dailies on multiple accounts only to compound your wealth into 1 main account.