In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

again if we were to increase the scope to include the bossing experience to decide on balance

NL: hold triple throw and rage at faulty avoid
Shad: hold down macro for dark sight + assassinate + boomerang and rage when lagspike, weave in smokescreen off cooldown/strategic timings

really in terms of gameplay + utility at this point, heroes gameplay is surprisingly close to NLs, but why is there no conversation of making shad = NL for damage because dark sight + assasinate + boomerang weave is more conditional and if the rhythm is broken (1/1 during dark sight or sealed mid combo), the damage for shads are gonna plummet?
and what about range attacker + flash jump mobility privilege for NL?
sounds similar to the DRK berserk being conditional and requires focus here, where survivability and performance is concerned

for minmax damage heroes currently have no better option than to hold brandish because panic is too detrimental to use before combo is flashing on the timer
its the same as NLs, there is no attack better than TT in their kit, even during mobbing, TT is roughly matching avenger at 3 targets
why would anyone want to play shad over a NL much like DRK over hero? pretty much a very similar case of trading all forms of utility for pure attacker performance

when comparing the bossing experience for warriors, paladins having the option to have crash and threaten to increase the APM to justify their difficulty in play is kind of the problem for the hero class
heroes do not have a kit that allows them to do anything else except to smack the boss

Paladin (unga bunga mode): Spam blast for single target + recast holy charge only
Paladin (smooth brain + 1 brain fold mode): spam blast for single target + use correct element for specific bosses (zak bodies, krex, pap, etc.)
Paladin (smooth brain + 2 brain fold mode): spam blast for single target + use correct element for specific bosses (zak bodies, krex, pap, etc.), recast crash when flashing
Paladin (optimized attacker mode): ACB correct element for arms at zak, blasts correct element at different arms, weave hammer, crash + threaten
Paladin (top 0.1% mode): ACB correct element for arms at zak, weave hammer, crash + threaten, uses crash when knocked back at zak to minimize dps losses

Drk (1 braincell mode): hold down crusher and sets auto pot to 50%
Drk (unga bunga mode): hold down crusher and sets auto pot to 30% when using milks at bosses that don't hit too hard (zak, pap, krex, etc)
Drk (brain mode): maintain zerk when bosses hit hard + crashes to remove buffs
Drk (Top 0.1%): no hp autopot, presses 3 keys to heal exactly the damage received, able to maintain zak when getting slapped by anego, dodges zak flame pillars by ducking, no HB required by predicting damage received because recasting hb is a dps loss

Hero (1 braincell mode): spam brandish
Hero (unga bunga mode): spam brandish + armor crash
Hero (unga bunga + 3 braincells mode): spam brandish + armor crash, uses panic right before recasting combo
that's all folks nothing else that can be done

for zak, brandish does better, but for nearly every other application, crusher =/> brandish in performance
survivability wise, what about comparing DRK with paladins for single target bossing in VL, neo tokyo and showa bosses?
and potion costs, what about paladins with DRKs once again?

the issue with the current game balance is not a focus of whether hero > drk or drk > hero
but in general, drk and hero being specialists in 2-3 targets, but with hardly enough performance everywhere else
and drk having zerk's jankiness without enough benefit

so if the equation was tipped slightly that DRKs being the absolute reigning gods of multitargets by raising berserk to like 240%~260%
but heroes gets single target coverage with panic = blast performance
i would say that each having warrior have a different coverage from each other will make them balanced in merit
zak and ht multitarget stages: DRK>hero>pala
single target stages: hero = pala> DRK
mobbing at LHC: DRK > hero > pala
RG: DRK>pala>hero
would that put DRK at the bottom tier? maybe for certain content, but again, that will become a class specific issue like archmages having the absolutely worst single target performance attacker role, rather than a general bottom tier class issue

because right now, heroes have no other attack than brandish, whereas DRK has options on the table on single/multitarget with crusher and polearm fury in the current game meta when compared to heroes
once again, the current game balance makes heroes out of place, because they do not have any other choice in an attacker role, but that role is overlapped and outclassed (apart from zak arm stage only) by DRKs

pure attacker role

single target specialist
Sair > NL in pure damage because sair is harder to pilot
therefore balanced?
what about adding a few more metrics?
NL> Sair in mobility and survivability

what if we added the other single target specialist classes to the mix to find out more about balance
damage
Sair > NL > Shad > BM > MM > pala

difficulty in playing
Sair > MM > Shad > pala > BM > NL

multi/mobbing coverage
Sair (air strike + gaviota + flamethrower + ice splitter) > MM (piercing arrow is pretty underrated btw) = pala (HH + ACB) > shad (boomerang + band of thieves) > BM (arrow rain cope) > NL (avenger cope)

survivability (assume medium washing, 1~3b budget, 3 months of hp quests, don't bring the 30k or go home, otherwise the balance becomes weirder)
Shad (meso guard+shadow shifter + smoke + avoid)> pala (achilles + power guard + stance + HP pool) > NL (shadow shifter + avoid + range attacker) > BM = MM > Sair (battleship break = sadge)

utility
BM=MM (SE=God) > pala (crash) > Shad (smoke = dps loss cuz somebody is gonna hit 100 attack limit except the BM) > NL (haste mule) > Sair (MW20 + echo mule, much stonk)

pretty much not too bad in terms of tradeoffs here and there

2-3 target multitarget specialist
DRK> Hero because DRK is harder to pilot
Hero>Drk in survivability
balanced?

instead of just looking between 2 classes in a pure single condition, heroes have no other coverage in the game except being a pure attacker in the very niche 2-3 multitarget situation, and has no other coverage in utility or mobility, just a beefy HP pool, but when you add paladins into the balance here, you get to see why the DRK > hero is justified purely from the ease of play gets some cracks.

 

to illustrate my point, if we were to reference the dps charts by @Geyforlife
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/dps-charts.124709/



using stoppers as an average potion that sits between gizer and apples so that its rather representative of an overall average run (apple run LHC, gizer zak, apple zak, etc.)

single targets
Sair = numbers are the highest but achieving that is rather difficult/ conditional where the boat does not break
NL = 1 button and the extremely difficult jump attack moves wow
MM = snipe at 100% cast off cooldown, so quite abit of rhythm involved, good utility, poor mobility
BM = 1 button and the extremely difficult button meshing to reposition forward when knocked back, good utility, not too bad mobility
Shad = 1 button macro + occasional griefing, not too bad utility from smokescreen, good mobility
bucc = choose which macro, good utility in SI and TL, pretty decent mobility
pally = 1 button attacker, hammer optional for certain bosses/content, good utility in threaten + crash, decent mobility
drk = 1 button attacker, but has differing difficulty based on how hard they get smacked, so zak,krex pap and stuff that hits under ~5k = auto pot unga bunga, >10k = manual pot (auto pot possible but a little risky at times), >15k = sigma play, utility is a meme, mobility is pretty sad
hero = 1 button attacker, jump brandish skillz wow, decent mobility

multi targets (2-3)
more conditional but i would place them in this order
Drk>hero>shad, pally, Bucc,Sair, NL> MM>BM

multitargets (4-6)
shad>drk>pally>hero>bucc>NL (cuz mobility)> MM (piercing arrow gets stonk but hard to use at times, skill issue) > sair> BM

so at this point, as an attacker, where does this place the classes
Drk -> not too bad for singles, strongest for 2-3, meme utility so a rather weak class for the difficulty (at times)
Sair = hero for 2 targets, but sair is overall stonkest (maybe also the hardest at times to play) for singles, utility = mw20???????
NL traded nearly everything for single target performance, but has a decent mobility QOL kit to make the unga bunga work
Shad is versatile as an attacker while having decent utility and mobility
Bucc is not too bad everywhere, traded more utility than shad to cover for the loss
MM = hard mode BM but more options in mobbing, SE stonk utility for both MM and BM
hero = NL in hard mode gameplay skills wow, conditional to even hit harder than anyone, mw20 top tier utility

so really, why ask for DRK> hero when it could be DRK> shad?
and also, what about hero = shad? shadowers have more coverage, more utility, similar survivability (meso guard + shadow shifter + avoid) vs heroes (hp pool + stance + achilles + power guard), and the APM argument is kinda of thrown out the window since the in game macros work for dark sight + assasinate + boomerang
are shadowers over buffed?
or are DRK and heroes just weak and require more balancing?

 

As a guy who gone through the pre new source age, I have something to say about Shadower.
Can't deny that Shadwoer is way better than before, but the problem is, current royal solution for Shadower is too focus on..... skill damage(Assassinate/BS damage buff), but forget about the class feature.

Shadower:

In damage perspective, although Shadower Multi target DPS lose to warrior class and Single-target DPS loses to it's NL brother, but on the contrary, shad is not bad on both Single/Multi DPS situation.

Thus damage no longer require further buff.

So in current situation, I will suggest tweak Shadower in an indirect way to achieve class balance, we should enhance the current skill set to polish Shadower's job feature.

1. Assassinate:
- Recover the charge mechanism and give short period additional buff (Ignore mob defense stats or give Shad Critical chance) after casting fully charged Assassinate.
Charging mechanism is always a feature of this skill, don't know why royal took it off(maybe damage cap? Plz remove the damn cap).
Due to shad can't pot while charging in Dark Sight(this is a risk), thus we can add a BUFF(reward) for shad after casting the fully charged Assassinate, this idea is being implement in other MS server, and I think it's a very cool idea.

- Remove the Dark Sight requirement, make DS optional for Assassinate.
Why not? ping problem of DS is always pain in the Ass....

- Fourth hit rework, dash only when left/right arrow key is pressed, and fix the critical damage.
Sometimes unwanted dash is deadly and annoying, allows Shadower dash at will is a good QOL change.
4th dash has it's own risk and it should deal more damage, according to the skill description, 4th hit does "250%" critical damage, but on my own client, I never seen my 4th hit does "250%" damage comparing with the previous 3 hit.

2. Pickpocket (trash skill)
- Make meso drop from PP scale with Shadower damage
This feature also already implemented on other MS server, tried it before, it's a very funny and useful skill change, making Meso Explosion+ Pick Pocket a viable attack combination for multi target situation.
This change allows Shadower have more attack utility, shad can accumulate Meso while attacking, and choose when to explode these Meso, exploding these meso to clear boss summoning or explode them to deal short burst damage on boss are all possible, it even can be applied to daily grinding!

3. Shieldmasterty (trash skill)
- Give additional Avoid/HP.
Don't know why this skill exist, 100% a trash right now, give Avoid and HP will be much useful.
4. Assulter
- Quicker skill animation or longer distance.
As a mobility skill, this skill is not so “mobile”, animation is too long, and also smash your face into mob while using it, it just need some QOL change.

Summary:
IMO, Shad should be a versatile class, what makes ppl want to play(or party with) this class shouldn’t be the damage output, but the versatility skill tree in Shad sleeves.

 

i see your point, agreed wholeheartedly .

what i actually would like to see is changing hero and drk so they don't have the same playstyle.

• bring dark impale to royals and make it single target so drk would have formidable single target dps when fully buffed. they could still use crusher for aoe.
• buff brandish to 4 targets and do some work around coma / panic so hero gameplay isn't braindead and would do decent single target
• uncap pally

 

lol unpopular opinion but reduce triple throw 15% and assassinate 10%, sounds like it will solve a whole lot of balance issues based off the data on this and many other threads.

Just "shadow nerf" it and they wont even complain or see a difference. They just watch netflix while in HT anyways, will still probably white everything too.

 

I 100% agree with this, overtuned classes like shadowers & buccaneers should receive a nerf instead of buffing other classes since there will always be feedback threads on buffing X cause Y got buffed during Z patch. I think the main reason why people are mentioning that warriors are in need for buffs is because in the previous balance patch(s), warriors slowly lost their identity while shadowers and buccaneers can do their job just as well or if not even better, while offering amazing utility to bossing parties.

Personal opinion: I don’t think shadower needed straight damage % buffs from the previous balance patches. They just needed the extended vertical/horizontal range so they can hit bosses appropriately. Buccs also didn’t need the permanent super transformation.

 

alright since @Johnny actually agreed with me I'm about to go off then.

All seriousness and joking aside.

Yes, Hero and MM could use some minor tweaks to improve gameplay.
Hero: Make Enrage do something unique. I think Enrage can be a stance/reduced knockback effect for the party. Give it a 5 min CD and a 2min duration time at max, or something similar. I think hero dps and current ability set are fine otherwise. Let's remember that the record for Fastest HT on the server has a hero in party, lol yes I know it's Tim and he's cracked but you get my point.
MM: Make the Piercing arrow have no charge to give MM the Aoe/mobbing role. Buff Blind's effect on bosses allows a 20% chance to miss, I believe it is currently 10%. Give MM a fast weapon option comparable to DSC DPS.

Now to the shit people will bitch and complain about because they love how OP it is, but in all honesty it's what is the problem.

NL: Reduce TT 15-20%. It's way too easy of a class to be so powerful. It feels like Nexon intentionally made the class to make kids buy tons of NX and APRs to play it, it's ridiculous.
Shad: Reduce Assassinate 10-15%, B-step 10%. Shads are too versatile and can solo everything. They should NOT be within the top 3 SINGLE AND MULTI-target dps, never die or get hit, and give arguably the best party buff IMO: Smokescreen. R>SHAD only HT is getting out of hand, this needs a clear nerf. I will add, Shad has the ability to also be the #1 DPS with Meso Explosion, I soloed Shao at lvl 138 on my shad. But hey, make Assaulter a better mobility ability, it's quite lackluster.

*side note*
and I will REPEAT AGAIN, please remove the damage cap for Paladin. Thanks.

I can't comment on Bucc being op though, it's the only class I have not bossed with.

 

how the balance stands IMO in the current state, and maybe some complaints tweaks i have in mind
Sair: hard mode = more power so its fine

NL: single target specialist, no nerfs required because the class is too specialized, sure its easy to raise and all, but anybody keen on R>NL for bearwolves? R> NL for bossing is true, but its still a specialized class much like how archmages are specialized full screen smackers (keen on R>FP/IL for zak and HT?)

MM: make piercing arrow capable of firing at point blank and it gets pretty good, current balance against BM is somewhat alright, because MM has more mobbing capacity with dragon + piercing arrow, the APM required for snipe + strafe should bridge the capability close to BM's specialization in single targets only, but never to outperform

BM: single target specialist version of MM, so hurricane must be balanced to be ~102% (a very close but very slight advantage) over snipe+strafe at 100% uptime, purely because of specialization trade off

Shad: overbuffed imo, unless assasinate and dark sight cannot be placed into macro - if this happens then the APM argument works. Otherwise the class has too much coverage in single target, mobbing, utility, survivability

Bucc: stonk utility in SI and TL, dem knockback pinnings for auf and bigfoot (more utility), not too bad attacker coverage in single target, mobbing, survivability is pretty high up there with the iframes and HP pool, might be a little too strong for the amount of utility being brought onto the table

Pally: CR+ threaten is pretty much usable everywhere and great at weapon cancel bosses (pianus, zak, ht, etc.), great single target, mobbing coverage, great survivability from HP pool + achilles + power guard + stance, but for the trade offs in the overall ease of coverage, the attacker performance should be placed equal or maybe 1~2% higher than buccs

DRK: meme class for utility - but it is unique though so there is value, just not in the current meta - unless HB raises max hp past the cap, then there is something new to talk about (unlikely to happen cuz client limitations)
damage is a joke compared to shadowers when comparing overall single target, mobbing, and even the coveted 2-3 target specialization, even before factoring the difficulty from maintaining zerk in certain content (high damage bosses)
survivability is sad when compared to the warrior peers, but when compared to shadowers, the difference is even more egregious
also if we were to compare DRK vs shadowers in more detail
single target = shadowers stonker, shadowers just hold down assasinate macro
2-3 targets = DRK advantage, but not by much
4-6 targets = DRK only IF they switch to pole arm fury, otherwise shadowers will be the ones winning
utility: smokescreen = pretty universal application, and is limited usage by cooldown so its somewhat ok; DRK = power crash + HB are very niche applications

hero: meme class for hero> DRK in zak arms, no utility (rage so stonk wow),
single target is a joke if you compared that an unga bunga paladin blast spam is stronger than whatever a hero can ever do - make panic smack as hard as blast but orbs don't get burnt plz
multi target 2-3 is slight advantage over paladins, but the difference to shadowers is making he "specialist" capability questionable, DRK has a few limitations here and there so its alright that DRKs hit harder in this aspect
mobbing 4-6 = absolutely the strongest mobber class in the game with slash blast = brandish - unless coma can be buffed to balance off the coverage
so if we compared the current state between pally and heroes
single target : pally wins ez
multi 2-3: hero wins ez
mobbing 4-6++: acb single braincell moves alone is enough, +hammer for more ez advantage
utility: rage = strongest buff in game at +12wa non stackable wow, very OP compared to threaten (universal coverage) + crash (unique anti weapon cancel coverage)
-> so a pure attacker class loses in most aspects against a support capable, higher coverage class?

I would rather make DRKs more specialized into the 2-3 target range rather than adding more coverage in singles, as that would compete too much with every other class (shad, pally and NLs specialization)

instead of increasing brandish to a 4 target specialist skill, i would rather have single target pally=hero> drk, 2-3 targets drk= hero> pally, 4-6+ targets drk = pally > hero, so that there are no overlaps + outclass in roles

even though DRKs is harder to play, the specializations should be respected, otherwise we are gonna get people asking for sair to hit full screen harder + get something like a flash jump to match NLs to justify the difficulty
and NLs are gonna as for more multi target coverage, and then more buffs/nerfs gonna be shoved everywhere till the game is unrecognizable
sounds like big bang hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

this would make drk really bad wouldn't it?

their main utility is already rendered useless with the increasing amount of ways to get hp in the game,
and performing optimally at certain content is not as easy as hero/pally, some would even say impossible or too difficult.

so where's the catch for players to main a drk and having need to zerk every content just to be "on-par" or weaker than hero/pally? if there's no distinguishable edge for having need to zerk when compared to other warriors, why even play drk?

the whole concept of drk is glass cannon, so if you take that away by having other classes be able to be on-par or be better at dps-wise, then drk is rip.

 

That is why there needs to be a distinction in roles for DRK and heroes
Nobody asks for buff drk because archmages are too good at mobbing because the classes do not overlap in roles and specializations
And consequently, nobody is asking for chain lightning = brandish and crusher performance because its a multi target skill and archmages have poor single targets

If heroes get a single target capability increase to increase coverage while DRKs get further specialized in the multi target department
It is balanced in its own right
Otherwise its heroes get hyper specialized into the multi targets by making brandish like 15% stronger than crusher will ever be, but give DRKs single target attacks with the single target being like 5% stronger than paladins (pala has the edge for 6+ targets over drks + cr + threaten utility advantage while drks get 1-3 target attacker advantage)

That way there are no overlaps and outclass simultaneously

 

tl;dr: add a true 8-10 part boss for mages, maybe rebalance high tier MA pots too

In a potential future content expansion, I'd love to see another multi part boss, similar to HT or Zakum arms (but without the sed mechanics of HT that exclude mages). Making a true 8-10 part boss would finally give mages a way to shine in at least one boss.

In my bish only zakum solo, I (1652 tma w/echo+mw20 bishop), using cheese (+228 tma on top of that), managed to clear all arms in ~15 minutes.
Talking with attackers, well funded attackers would likely take around the same time (a bit slower for single target, a bit faster if OP shad like @TheHound) to clear on apple, which currently is same price as cheese. This means that in 8+ target situations, bishops and attackers are roughly equal, with bishops maybe having a slight edge. Keep in mind zak's 2 highest HP arms are also holy weak, and the rest are holy neutral. IL/FP are ~50% above bishop with no weaknesses (or ~2% below with holy weakness)

As for why mages aren't viable in zakum and HT, both bosses have problems:

• Zak arms die pretty fast, and mages are extremely bad at the single target portion
• HT dispels and starts mass seducing once the arms get low. Seeing as arms have much lower HP compared to the heads, mages would quickly get to mass sed warning and have to stop attacking for over half the fight. Also, magic cancel (since mages won't be near CR) and attackers clearing one part at a time also reduces efficiency. Still, having an active bish using genesis is viable here, and I've even managed to white both arms on some runs, even relatively fast ones.

Overall, to work for mages, this boss would need a few things:

• 8-10 parts (elemental weaknesses to be determined by balance goals - if not mostly holy weak, then there should be an additional use for bishops)
• Each part has roughly equal HP, and all can be hit at once by a mage ultimate.
  • Potentially 1-2 parts with extra HP to encourage mixed parties, but it would need to be carefully balanced to avoid giving those parts too much HP and hitting the same issues zak has.
• Some way to limit/make multi clienting harder, to prevent previous mage farmers from bringing all 17 mages in and destroying it in 20 seconds. Probably not dispel, as a badly timed dispel can kill even an active mage without enough HP. Potentially knockback pushing you off a platform and making you climb back up before you can keep attacking? Then juggling between multiple clients would be a pain - by the time one climbs back up, another has fallen down again, but a single client would be able to stay focused and reposition between casts to never fall.
• No mechanics that require certain parts to stop being damaged.

In the original post, a few questions are asked. Here's my answers

• The motivation. Is a class lacking in some area they shouldn't?
  • Mages are lacking in any sort of bossing content - the closest we get to bossing is playing active bish at HT, which is often with friends only - gl joining a random group for that, or bishop in Von Leon, which is almost entirely just staying alive, casting 1 spell every 2.5 minutes, and casting ress occasionally. While mages are good at farming, and that's previously been the reason to exclude them from any bossing content, the addition of rose garden has very much weakened their position as farmers and shown that classes can, in some cases, break slightly out of their roles with attackers getting similar/potentially better farming rates than mages.
• What do you expect or hope the change will accomplish?
  • Mages to at least have one boss that they're top tier at and should be recruited for. Ideally this gives mage mains a reason to not just quit since their class is absolutely worthless as a main.
• Where does this proposition place a class or classes in the big picture?
  • Currently bishops are generally muled in bosses that want them, and archmages have no reason to exist outside of multi-mage farming (and the occasional leecher who's not a bish). This would give mages a single boss to excel at, hopefully driving more interest towards the classes!
• Does this change have its place in Royals?
  • I don't see why not. It would fill the niche of bossing content that mages can actually participate in, without making them too strong at every boss. Potential other changes still might be good for mages too, but this would be a start that's not too disruptive to the current economy and balance.

To go along with this change, a rebalancing of some of the higher magic attack potions may be necessary, notably apples, banana graham pies, subani's cauldrons, ssiws cheese, and the VL mage pot:

• Ssiws cheese gives 220 magic attack, and currently costs ~2m/ea, maybe slightly higher. This means cheese, as things stand, is about the same cost to keep up as an attacker using apples. If this boss was to be added, due to low supply of these pots (cheese/cauldron/VL pot all serve the same purpose), I expect the price would increase similar to what we saw in Rose Garden - doubling or more. This would make cheese (et al.) more similar to Demon Elixirs or VL wa pots.
• Ssiws cheese gives a mage 20-30% more damage: a 1300 tma bishop gets a 30% buff, but a 1600 one gets closer to 22%
• Apples tend to give attackers closer to a 50-80% damage buff. No one uses apple on mage, it's just not worth the cost.
  
  
• Overall, I'd recommend making this change, which is giving each "tier" about 2x the MA as WA.
  • Apples: 100 MA -> 180 MA (200 felt overbuffed considering apple availability vs the rest)
  • Pies: 120 MA -> 240 MA
  • Cheese: 220 MA -> 280 MA
  • Cauldron: 200 MA -> 260 MA
  • VL Pot: 220 MA -> 280 MA
• I'd recommend AGAINST changing lower MA pots, as they're often used to hit leech breakpoints and changing those would very much mess with the leech economy. The pots listed above are expensive enough to make them worthless for leech sellers.

 

Multitarget breakpoints is something that advantages the mage classes in bossing

But to prevent bishops from getting too potent in the bossing scene cuz they are already a premier support class with access to mage ults

I would suggest that instead of just adding HP to parts like zak arms, bosses should flood summons till the screen looks a scene from hell, with all the summons being immune to holy damage, and aggressive instead of just running around the corner aimlessly

Rationale being
1. Summons spam = single target classes need to rely on mobbing and multitarget classes otherwise the attacks get absorbed
2. Prevent bishops = premier support AND mob clearer for bossing
3. Heavens hammer already brings things down to 1 HP, but genesis cant hit the last 1 HP, meaning that attacks get absorbed regardless
4. FP and IL mages have a secondary/optional role in bossing to so things like breaking the multitarget parts + clear mobs plz
5. Multitarget attacks (espcially crusher and brandish) are more relevant instead of focusing on TT, demoliton, assasinate and battleship number spams
6. Mobbing kits are relevant in more content of the game apart from grinding, meaning that NL meta is only a niche - no more SE+BS+CR+3NL combo meta cept a few spots
7. Problem is shadowers become too strong cuz of kit versatility

Meta becomes
SE+BS+CR+AM+2NL
Or the AM+2NL can be swapped for more multi targets like
Bucc+2drk/hero
3x shad (nerf Bstep or assasinate to prevent this)

 

That's wrong, genesis does 1 damage to holy immune mobs so it would kill them.

Bishop support isn't actually that much, and heavily drops off once you start running with 200s who don't need hs. At that point you get holy shield (yay 1 spell every 2 minutes), and dispel (just use acp, and it's jank at dispelling mobs)

Unless the mobs are actually dangerous in some way, such a stunning, this wouldn't do anything to melee attackers and sairs on ship. Attack prioritization will hit the boss first.

And as you said, it'll probably just buff shads more. Finding the exact right balance for mobs will be very hard.

 

Good idea for IL (idk how for FP) would be increase range/damage/ more line of lightning chain. Allow it to connect to other mobs farther apart and maybe 2 lines or 3. Can be a good mobber for lhc or zak arms. Sorta like the old school luminous chain.

 

I cannot speak with the most proficiency as most have already commented since I'm a newer player, although I have played other servers with different classes, however I do agree with your sentiment that game balancing the classes should be around a class' identity and overall individuality, that seems like healthy game design.

As for the warrior classes and how you've previously mentioned, I believe Paladins should be the warrior class whose identity revolves around tankiness, protection, sturdiness and reliability, if we take a look at other Paladins in pop culture media and videogames, the sentiment is shared.

As such, Dark Knights (specifically spearmen) should be a class that holds down the front, narratively and in game design, meaning they should be the #1 warrior mobbing class (+3 targets or more), since spearmen are typically shown to be in the front lines.

I believe Heroes should be the ones who excel at single target damage as the preconception of a hero means an individual who excels at confronting, I am not sure how to balance this but I see some mentions of upping Brandish's damage when damaging one target.

I don't believe Paladin should be the warrior with the highest single target damage since it doesn't mesh well with its characteristics.

These are just my two cents.

 

I'm in love with many ideas that have been put on this thread and I'd like to emphasize some stuff about archers:

- passive focus instead of active.
- make dragon's breath possible to use at point blank for both MM and BM.
- make dragon's breath possible to push LHC mobs and other sturdy mobs too.
- make silver hawk/golden eagle/frostprey/phoenix toggeable (somehow...).
- buff inferno's damage and an actual functioning damage over time feature that hits harder as it burns.
- remove -OR- decrease piercing arrow's charge, possibly reducing the damage % just a bit too for fairness sake.
- make marksman's strafe hit a 5th line, same damage -OR- keep at 4 lines and increase damage %.
- increase all crossbows' speed by 1 or 2 (at least nescheres and shiners).

most reasoning of these are within this thread, plus it's kind of self-explanatory. thanks.

 

I totally agree on this - as long as each class has it's unique identity it will be played/enjoyed (look at islanders, ironmen, or perma beginners - people still like playing these even though they're crippled in terms of class balance)

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Some meme ideas for warriors:

Drk - high risk high reward. I think making zerk get even more powerful the lower the HP would make it funner and further the class identity. E.g. starting from 50% = 200% -> 1% = 249% on a linear scale would encourage Drks to play near death for maximum reward.
Hero - I think hero's identity is an all-rounder, good in all aspects but not the highest in any. However current state is bottom-tier single-target dmg, utility, and lack of skill diversity. Buffing these aspects back up to a decent level should help heroes be viable.
Pally - I don't even know what Paladin's identity is, maybe others can help out here

 

Can snipe be cast while jump attacking? I feel often times there is a slight delay if I get hit and snipe comes off CD wasting maybe a microsecond for me to land on the ground. That microsecond feels terrible.

I think it would also be a nice QoL change to dodging mechanics / repositioning since it also feels bad to not snipe because you need to move.

 

I kinda disagree with making Rage stack with attack potions because this wouldn’t make people want to include heroes in their party, it would just be another mule NL mains bring to their boss runs. Instead I would rework rage to have a chance to procc on every attack with panic and coma having a higher chance to make rage appear. Rage in this case would be a short buff around 10-20 secs that would stack with attack potions while still encouraging actively playing instead of buffing and forgetting about it for 3 mins.

I think this would fit the heroes theme as the party would need to stay close to him to reap the benefits.

dragon blood for dark knight could also be reworked to work just like rage but it would be slightly stronger since it would only affect the dk.

 

longer duration puppets please (for archers)