Class/Skill Balance melee attk

Hello everyone. I would like to suggest to the administrators that they can please give jobs such as assassin, archer and pirate the option to be able to attack at close range.

An example of this is the lucky seven. Being able to use it near the mob, since when you attack near them they hit a melee leaving you with no option to reduce their life. I think this would be a balance for these jobs that have this difficulty when grinding.

Please think about it, this would help many at low levels also so that they do not have so much difficulty.

 

Are you suggesting that you'd like to see the melee range lifted from ranged classes? Would you like to see the range changed?

Night Lords can (flash) jump attack and rarely ever run into problems. Can confirm that their 4rth job push skill (Ninja Storm) is contender for one of the most useless skills in the game. Shadow Web is actually pretty decent crowd control.

Archers have Power Knock Back at 2nd job. Arrow Rain, wich is basically (for 3rth job) a very decent melee mobbing skill. At 4rth they get Dragon Breath but you basically never need to use it for 99% of the content you are doing 99% of the time. I despise playing my BM but thats not because of their melee attacks.

I have 0 knowledge about Sairs.

At least NL and SE have tools to work with. Night Lord honestly doesnt even need them. Haste+Flash Jump solves 99% of all scenario's.

SE has some (fairly) consistent tools to work with.

In general these tools are very low on the priority list. You're usually better of killing shit than having tools for if you didnt. You also dont really need them.

However, I can agree that these skills suck pretty hard. Especially at lower levels when they have very low chances of succes. If you play casually having to invest 30 Skill Points into a mediocre skill is quite an investment that feels very underwhelming.

I don't know what the "42% chance of succes" means at lvl1 Ninja Storm but I miss on 5/6 mobs I hit, whether I attack Snails, Spirit Vikings or Primitive Boars.

 

Good point and I agree with it. I just wanted to give this suggestion since for these 3 jobs at the beginning it is very difficult to grind mobs, while for the bosses it is somewhat easier, but being already in the 4th job, in addition to this in the 2nd job all the jobs have an ability which helps them hit various mobs, not for the assassin and something that could at least help for his benefit would be being able to hit at close range with the lucky seven, which is the only ability he has. I hope in any case that the administrators can think of this and if it is not possible I will understand too.

 

I would like to point out that the game doesn't start at level 70, so the night lord solution should not be considered as a default solution.

I would like to say that this QOL will make a good impact, in the GMS they did it a few years ago and it was excellent. Attacking from close range is nicer and helps you grind in crowd places that are not always viable for thieves, archers or corsairs

 

Exactly, the comments above talk about the hermit's abilities to keep the character away from the mob, but there is no ability that helps these classes from the beginning to develop calmly. Giving these 3 classes the opportunity to grind the mob from close range is a small plus from their lower levels, as you say... this was well received overall, helping with the difficulty. For example, carnival is a quiet place for all melee jobs

 

This problem is mostly relevant at low levels, for example in things like CPQ you'd be in trouble with all the mobs swarming on you and the map being flat.
Maybe you could have a way to make it only work at low level skills? (like only work on lucky seven and not on TT) so that it won't change high level gameplay

 

I main NL and I find my experience to be the opposite of yours. NL's melee range is further than BM's for some strange reason, and enemies that expand their hitbox when attacking (like Mr. Anchors, Petris, and Nibergen before it was fixed) will cause me to start punching even though I was pretty far away. But this almost never happens with my BM. Ninja Storm is incredibly useful but only when you max it out so it has 100% hit rate. I rely on it when in areas that don't allow flash jumping to work effectively. Sometimes I will FJ into a group of enemies, use Ninja Storm to separate them, then start attacking one side while the other side has stopped moving to attack me. This is pretty situational but I've worked it into my Rose Garden routing to help with enemies that hang out near high ledges that I'm trying to jump onto. As for Shadow Web, it's nice for some enemies but I don't use it much. It's great against Crimson Guardians so you don't get sealed constantly.

I agree with your BM experiences. Power Knockback is necessary before you get Arrow Rain/Eruption, but you don't need it after that. Dragon's Breath is pretty useless outside of Ellin PQ, and that's only if you didn't bring a second rusher or NL with maxed Ninja Storm. The one thing I really dislike about BM is with how Mortal Blow works. If I'm attacking to the right and an enemy approaches me from the left, Mortal Blow will start activating when they get close enough even though I'm aiming in the other direction.

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Mercedeson is talking about low-level play, and I'm sympathetic towards that especially since 1st job thieves have to put eight points into Keen Eyes to make their stars travel further, and that skill itself requires three points in Nimble Body. So the first five levels are a little tight (assuming you put a point into Lucky Seven too), and you don't get Haste for another 15 levels to help stay away from enemies. Archers have similar requirements but I don't remember how short their base range is. Honestly, I wonder what would happen if we swapped the melee ranges for NL and BM as a thought experiment. Outside of Krex, for obvious reasons, would NL and its early classes play more comfortably? Would archers be more annoying to play early on, at least until they get Power Knockback?

As a final side note, NL's melee range being larger than BM's melee range has always been funny to me. The BM takes their bow in two hands and uses it like a big mallet, so it appears like it should have more range. But their automatic melee range is much shorter than a NL's who is basically using a fancy glove to punch things. It's like Marth's grab range versus Yoshi's all over again.

 

Level 2 Ninja Storm .

This is also me having fun after putting my fate in Ninja Storm during my first attempt Zak Solo on my Ironman




Fuck you too Amon.....

I gave up after being stuck for 6 hours like this on b3 (3h for b1 and b2). It was 6:30 in the morning and I was at 90% b3 at that time, also wasnt able to tank b3 body so powernap was not an option.

However, appearently you are telling me Ninja Storm actually does something at higher leves so I guess I need to stop leveling Taunt and get back to Ninja Storm so my next run is not going to be so cancer.

I do think a lot of skills in this game are so fucking dogshit bad at lower levels for no reason.

Sharp Eyes for example,
Lvl 4: MP - 29, for 40 sec, Critical rate + 2%, Damage + 14% ~ You are losing damage output from the casting time of this skill


I do also remember the Mr.Anchor, I was fairly excited to farm some scrolls and steelies but quickly figured out that the extention of their hitboxes made the map unplayable for Assasin. I do find that simply bad game design and not the problem of a class. Beside this very rare exception I have yet to run into other maps that are even close to how bad Mr. Anchors felt.
I have never done CPQ, so idk how Assasins do there. I am also sympathetic to new players and honestly do vote for everything that makes this game more accesible and most importantly, more fun for newer players.
Allthough, I do strongly disagree with lifting the very rare cases of player skill in this game. Being so agile on NL is what makes them such a blast to play (for me). I am very happy to play it as an Ironman since I have done a lot grinding and I am having a lot of fun. I can Flash Jump over the map to reposition myself, quickly lock the mobs with Shadow Web and sometimes can use Ninja Storm if I want to only aggro mobs but not KB or Stun them (yes lol this is how I use Ninja Storm).

As I never have done CPQ, idk if this is a thing that needs adjusting. If so, I much rather see those very specific mobs (*couch* Mr. Anchor) changed then removing the very last bit of skill expresion in this game.

Yes for buff dogshit low level tools.
Yes for content that requires more than 2 buttons to press
No for removing melee range.


I did leech my BM to 120, so I cannot speak on how they play before 4rth job. However I despise playing it (after spending 6b on apr lol). Not for the melee attacking but for the zero avoid and just pressing 1 key for the duration of the content. At least I can dual wield an hamburger while bossing.


Also lmao, I started out as a Ness Main. You can do very cool shit like Shield Drop, DJC-Auto Cancel Dair but if someone Light Shields they get pushed too far away to grab. I rather just Shine-Grab instead xD. (its been a while, do will suck hard now if I try)

Jokes aside. How dump Yoshi's Grab Range is compared to Marth's. Thats indeed how dump some hitboxes feel in this game. Please adjust those for the 3 people that actually go in that map without a level 200 to farm Captain cards.

 

rogue all the way to NL - use disorder, you have plenty of keyboard space. it has no range requirement, and literally de-aggros any non boss mob. it works on bigfoot too. avenger + venom is very strong. if you're mobbed, dive into DS, or FJ away. besides disorder, you also have shadow web, which traps mobs for you. you also have a 4th job skill that pushes mobs away from you. if it's useless and not working properly, open a thread about it. disorder, shadow web, and ninja storm. three useful, not useless skills. they're useless if you don't use them. if they're not working properly or if their function could be improved, the skill balancing thread is the place to talk about them.

archers have mortal blow which works at very close range and can insta kill mobs sometimes. as well as eruption/rain, which is a full fledged melee attack with no range requirement and very wide range in front and behind you, really it's more like F/P explosion, a spammable magic attack. you can stand in the middle of the typhon map and hold down rain/eruption with your pet, or any map, and act like a warrior. they are such good melee skills for ranged characters that they should be under scrutiny for cooldowns or increased arrow useage.. dragon breath is also long range rush, and xbowman can actively and passively freeze mobs with blizzard or frostprey

gunslingers have a no range requirement skill that stuns enemies -- blank shot, and it can be fired in the air as well, and can be spammed quickly. they can freeze (stun), fauxjump, and boat skills have no range requirement. hypno is a long range attack that can de-aggro mobs including bigfoot.

 

Reading comprehension. Many of you talk about third job classes, specifically I said low levels. Using disorder in CPQ1 and CPQ2 is useless, the spider web is one of the skills that is not raised at the beginning. In zakum, even if you are NL with all that mob chasing you, you have no option to use TT or Avenger.

The other jobs, like this one, have the same difficulty. I have given this suggestion that is incorporated into the GMS for the good of these classes. There are always people who want bad things for the common good.

Low-level distance classes always had this difficulty and for that same reason GMS saw the problem and changed it.

I am sure that this great change for distance classes would be well received by many people at Royals. Thank you.

 

of both the archers, they have fantastic mobbing 2nd job skills, one even stuns whole mobs with a huge splash range. slingers have a no range req skill that can be fired in the air that also stuns. these are amazing early skills for 2nd job classes, all ranged character can do great in cpq1+2 if you play them like the ranged characters they are and utilize your toolkit.

disorder is not useless. could it be better? that's another thread, but it's not useless unless you don't use it. it's your choice to not put points in shadow web early. could it be better? that's another thread. sins tear through cpq1 and 2, they can 1hko most mobs with little gear prep, and usually solo. bandits, a melee class don't even get a decent mobbing skill until after 3rd job, and not until it's maxed.
it's the nature of being a ranged class, running and gunning and being careful to not die. it's the same as asking for melee to be faster and have ranged attacks. the point was for players to play together and combine their strengths to overcome their limitations [you do what i can't, i do what you can't]

i'm not handicapping any class or poisoning the well by not agreeing with the conceit of the thread, which fundamentally changes how everything works. these are how they are meant to be played until the player later earn skills that make things easier. what MS later did is simply homogenize all classes into the same experience (everyone gets haste, flashjump, aoe, mobbing, and range skills in first job and on), the only distinction was their name and appearance, and a few novel party buffs, and that's what wrecked the server, and that's why there are nostalgia servers. i think the thrill of overcoming your weaknesses (running away to not be steamrolled by BF or mobs who can 1hko you) over time and unlocking improved skills is the thrill and reward of playing each class, as well as working together with other people to make it better. royals made party grinding more rewarding, but nobody does that because the cpq1+2 30-70 pipeline is so broken that a melee or sin solos so they have abundant potions to pick up. you don't have to play that way. and cpq is supposed to be a party experience, no pets, just combined skill and strength. if it was easy for ranged chars, there would be no challenge. grinding is supposed to be a party experience as well, but now some folks would rather not train than invite certain classes to LHC. one person wasn't really meant to hold a map and report you if you accidentally hit a mob on it, but that's how the game is compartmentalized now--single player efficiency over the MMO part of MMORPG. and some ppl like playing solo, but all these considerations shouldn't mean the fundamental nature of all different classes and people and playstyles be homogenized

 

Its a good idea, but there are still many classes and skills which can be used in close range combat. If we take archers, they need to deal with this problem the most, because they dont have flash jump like NL does. But, they do have, power knock back at 2nd job, and at 4th job, Dragon's Breath. But as long as you stay a little further from your target, you never have to whack with the bow. I think this suggestion isnt necessarily good. It ruins the core gameplay of playing bowman. Marksman and Bowmasters rarely find this a big problem because they have skills which push further away targets, and also, some skills CAN already be used at close range right now, for example Arrow Rain or Arrow Eruption. If anything, I would suggest making skills like Arrow Rain different. It can be used in close range already.

 

I talked about low levels, I don't know why you talk about NL or Bowmaster. In carnival 1 and 2 it is somewhat complicated for the range jobs, the mob sticks and it is not possible to compete team versus team if there are melee jobs on the other side. The fact that there is this balance in royal will not cause any problem. but it depends on the administrators, in my opinion it would even be great if they tested this balance in the game, I know that if they do, many people would be amazed and would enjoy the game better.

 

Carnival is not a good argument on the cons of ranged class's melee attacks, since Royals players tend to only use room 3 and 4, which is the melee rooms, while room 5 and 6 is designed to give ranged classes the edge over melee classes. But no one actually plays carnival PQ the way it's intended and only use room 3, 4 for better mobbing. Would you say it's balanced if archers can start iron arrow/arrow bomb from the center of the map and just turn left and right (or strong assassins 1hit koing all the mobs with lucky7) while warriors have to walk all around and chase down the mobs?

 

I understand your point and I agree with you. So what do you think about the hp of the classes? there is a disadvantage for sin and archers, while warriors and bucc have enough health for bosses. Why not balance so that there is no hp wash if you know that this is not balanced.

In carnival we look for the most feasible ones for everyone since the warriors on the map that is used the most are better, there is no point in entering a ranked map when the quickest thing would be for melee jobs to have the advantage. If this were the case, everyone at the carnival would be in the middle when there are already a lot of mobs because a sin when hitting hits only one, the one in front of it, while the warrior hits several mobs at the same time.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the second paragraph. Yes, a warrior is better than a sin in large group of mobs, sins aren't made to fight large groups, hence room 5 and 6 is much better for them. Back in GMS, parties with assassins and archers don't run room 3 and 4. In large groups, sins are suppose to be worse than a warrior, and it's the opposite when it comes to bosses where sins are suppose to be better than warrior. Throw a warrior in room 5 and 6 vs ranged class and you'll find warriors loses.

I'll limit the chat about HP since it's not relevant to the title: Most bosses have lower ranged damage than touch damage, you won't expect zakum hitting an NL for 8k with its ranged attacks. Yes there are special bosses such as shao or toad, who hits such high damage you must gain additional hp. Instead of "balancing", Royals has added the hp quests for you to explore the mobs in the game you would other wise never touch (basically, play the game, its not just all about bossing).

Now, I can't remember when GMS removed melee attacking from archers and sins, if they also added mobility skills to class like warriors so none of them would suffer melee vs ranged balanced, but they were pretty much already on track of all classes having no problem with having large range on attacks.

 

I repeat what I said from the beginning. This is for people who are starting to play, new people as well as old, range jobs at low levels have this difficulty developing over time. Close-up jobs have an obvious advantage since they have HP and attack several, while ranged jobs attack a single mob while several mobs corner them.