In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

This is one of the few places players actually have a chance to talk about indepth mechanics a lot of us feel passionate about.

I missed out the previously deleted comments but comments should never be edited by staff. We’ve had cases where community rioted to what we thought was a GM shadow deleting/editing comments and then Gert replying something on the lines of: Someone was doing, it wasn’t me, it won’t happen anymore.

If I want to praise a player’s class excellence, why isn’t it fair game to a call out a player’s lack of class competency if they’re presenting themself as a class expert and suggesting mechanic changes?

Why can’t we disagree with someone here?

If some 2022 NL only player makes a 3 paragraph short story post here why Paladin is OP and total crash should be a NL skill, not a Paladin skill, because he can’t get into any LHC or HT parties because he is a NL and has no mules. Why can’t I tell him his opinion is horrible and he doesn’t know anything about this server’s class balancing?

Also, it looked like Donnie was one of the parties who was involved in this supposed Flame War. It looked like she was just defending her opinions and disagreed how the thread is being moderated.

And if Staff really thinks she should still get forum banned, you should not be openly airing out dirty laundry and making it publicly known she was banned. This should have been done privately as it looks like a public display of power flexing to many, as lxlx has already pointed out.

And I believe all this is relevant enough to this thread. We’re passionate about this game and class balancing is one of the most talked about topics. We get invested and passionate about it at times. Flaming is one thing, but we’re going to disagree which each other.

I do not think it’s necessary to make a “Skill Changes and Balancing thread” feedback thread.

 

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/krex-class-dps-comparison.224575/

I'd like to remind people that the main reason for some classes excelling in threads like the one above is because Auf Helm exists which obviously benefits some classes much more than others.

I'd like to see how 'broken' all classes are with for example no Auf, 40 CGS & Perf Wep and no Auf, 60 CGS & Perf Wep.

Edit: on Apple instead of 140 WA pot would also help reflecting 'real' damage better I think.

To me that's a much more relevant area of balance. No way you're gonna convince me that 500b+ of funding is nostalgic

 

Okay to move forward this thread back on track I'll make the next bad balance suggestion.

We have to have always a bad one in between a few good ones.

I think we should nerf Corsair

• Corsairs are so strong!
• Bullets costs so much less than stars
• They have better mobbing and single-target damage then NL

Broken Class Skills:



2019lord Skills:

• Stupid class relies on SE, a whole extra character management is harder than keeping boat alive
• Costs too much to play
• These numbers are so puny in comparison to corsair

Why don't have I screenshots of corsair skills? Do you even play corsair? How are you qualified to comment on corsair?



Of course I don't play Corsair. I am better than one of these 107 players and not a class abuser like Corsair players.

My suggestion:

• Make homing beacon cost 1 magic rock per use
• Make Battleship cost 1 summon rock each mount

Why?:

• This will help Nightlords be more relevant in bearwolf recruitment

 

You're just being sarcastic and rude for no reason.

How about some actual controversial balance feedback:
I think the classes are balanced and no changes need to be made.

 

Can we close this thread and just do the things already?
Wasting everybody's breath out here in this long-ass thread full of hoopla.
We know what I suggest is gonna happen, I don't fuckin miss.
Or do nothing. It's an FTP private server run by volunteers who do this for fun. Who gives a shit!

 

Sure, I was mostly trying to push the thread away from the previous string of bad vibes.

Corsairs are in a bad spot:



There's a reason nobody makes/plays corsairs

Corsairs seem to have issues attracting newer players or keeping their existing playerbase because:

• Lots of overlap with Nightlord (Single Target DPS). Nightlords feel much more rewarding to play as they are easiest class to push out near optimal DPS, have the 2nd best mobility in game (Mage #1), and a lot of their additional costs (stars, weapons, etc.) is offset by alchemist.
• Difficulty in playing ship correctly, ideally never breaking the ship in all your runs (It's a lot harder than Berzerk)
• Washing is just as awful as Bowman. There are no HP bonuses unlike every single other class.
• Worst avoid in the game, even worse than Bowmen. Corsair DEX scales worse on avoid then Bowmen for some reason
• Very buff dependent. Need SE and SI do reach ideal DPS conditions

So rather than the obvious, nerf NL, what are some changes we can do to make Corsair more desireable?

Rather than lowering the difficulty of keeping battleship alive, I think many people already here have stated they want buffs to incentivize the reward of being able to manage your ship well:

• Remove/Reduce skill delay time on dismount
• Potentially look at buffing either battleship cannon or bullseye. Even if they buff bullseye, if they can't keep ship up, rapid fire+bullseye damage won't be that impactful
• Potentially increase elemental boost or the damage on Fire/Ice spitter. Make it actually meaningful enough for corsairs to carry around ice/fire capsules. There's an extra item slot(s) they need for these, I feel like their AoE deserves to feel much more impactful than Avenger if they are using blaze/glaze capsules

Other than that:

• Reduce recoil shot CD. Very useful repositioning skill that requires some learning to use well
• Make corsair avoid formula at least the same as bowmen

 

How about some actual actual spicy feedback:

Rebalance Ice/Lightning mages to be a bossing class. Heavily nerf the damage or number of targets of Blizzard, and significantly increase the damage of chain lightning (let's just ignore the fact that elemental weaknesses will mess the whole balance up, and that tma scales damage way differently than wa). Maybe buff the summon too, making it good to stand at near melee range. Next, since some people made IL farming mages and might be upset by this change, have a short event that allows one to change their IL mage into FP, which is still farming focused. This would also convert their wand 7 into a wand 5, and wand 8 into 6. Finally, any player who converts more than 1 IL mage gets an nx cape that displays the text "I'm a filthy mage farmer" behind them.

... oh wait, this isn't the unhinged feedback thread? In that case how about some actual feedback:

I might have mentioned this before but it's important.
Archers need some sort of movement skill or iframe, in addition to whatever other buffs they're getting. Every other class has one: mages with teleport, warriors with rush, NL with FJ, shad with bstep/assaulter, sair with recoil, and buccs with... like half their skills.

Von Leon, and any future similar boss that's mechanically difficult, needs to be survivable on any class, including archers. Since archers have no movement/iframe, this heavily limits the mechanics available as there's only so much they can do to avoid them. Giving the last class without a movement skill or iframe one would greatly open up design for future bosses, and hopefully would result in a much more fun Pink Bean (or whatever boss we get next), where movement skills/iframes aren't just a bonus that makes the boss easier, but instead skills that are necessary to use to survive.

 

It would be a pretty major change but I completely agree. Having no stance, minimal avoid, and no movement abilities makes MM&BM pretty rough. Buccaneers can just stop existing for extended periods of time, and they also have Stance most of the time. Shadowers and NLs can dodge a huge portion of incoming attacks, and Warriors can just shrug it all off. And Mages can obviously teleport and have MG. Meanwhile BM&MM are fragile as paper and can't avoid anything.
This completely ties in to Cynn's post about Sairs as well. So basically classes with DEX as a primary stat need... something, which means maybe changing DEX itself could be helpful, for example how it affects avoidability or make it start giving a small amount of passive Stance at values above say 200 so it only helps these classes? (Something like "I'm so dexterous I can stay balanced even after being hit"?)

 

I think one way to increase survivability would be to let slow be ACP-able. But this removes one of the best uses of a competent VL bishop.

Please staff do not let Slows be ACP-able.

 

Usually Devs prefer giving Archers a Back Step skill so they can be able to evade damage. Technically, it's possible for Staff to give Aran's Combat Step to sort of achieve this however I'm unsure if taking skills from other classes and giving them to Adventurers is on the table (i.e. taking stuff from Dawn Warrior and giving to Hero). Buffing the Attack Range of Archers to differentiate them from Night Lords and provide them some safety by shooting further back could be a possibility too.

 

i have a 165 sair, and i'm currently playing a new one because they're incredibly fun, as well as challenging/rewarding.

sairs are not in a bad place because bishops, NL, and the many many reasons everyone is maining or about to main a shad right now. those many examples about shad we don't need to get into right now, which have a big impact, and those other two classes, are not why sairs are in a bad place. sairs are amazing.

they are a perfect blend of attentive, dynamic gameplay, large, almost perfect toolkit of primary attacks, with a well balanced but not so great secondary toolkit, and if you want, can be played full tilt to be rewarded with the highest dpm class in the game. great, very few complaints outside of small QOL, and some SP friction. nothing i really want to strictly balance for them right now.

they're the opposite of NL. NL gameplay barely registers as a one out of 10 difficulty, if we don't factor raw resource requirements [potions, stars, skillbook prices] (not gear), and that is essentially their intended meta handicap, but it doesn't stop people still making them out the ass. and one of the reasons for this is how first gear they are to play, while being so strong. they're an excellent attacker if you're multiclienting, and they don't need speed infusion but all those strengths in this meta, is also why they shouldn't be so braindead (easy) to play. i understand that the HP gate and raw resource is their meta handicap, but that doesn't mitigate how easy they are to play, along with their survivablitiy, which is also why i was a proponent of the shifter nerf (for NL at least. it's my opinion NL should have got the neft, shads should not have, but MG should have and should still be lowered and i've said this a lot longer than this thread)
[out of all the NL created on that staff list, we won't know how many of them are washed, unwashed, or unaware, some players make it all the way to NL without realizing the HP limits they will face, and we also don't know how many will even continue playing, but almost every shad main right now can basically be guaranteed to follow through except for maybe like
15% being smoke mules.

these are a few reasons people play those other classes first, and i was just mostly trying to say that doesn't mean sairs are necessarily in a bad spot because of other issues that actually do need balancing, they just take a certain kind of dedication to play well and enjoy.

Wings

• can also be cast midair for the emergency feather fall effect (not as a double jump)

[this gives wings so, so much more utility and i think this is a fair request for the nature of the skill]


Hypnotize

• this might be a big ask, but make it so enemy AI don't kamikaze into other monsters unless they are out of MP or have no magic attack
• can only hypnotize 1 mob at a time

[this adjustment would make hypno better for bosses]


Magic Dice

• requires magic rock, consumes it
• rolls a 6 sided die, buffs stack with any other w/m def buffs.

1. Snake Eyes, -100 W/Mdef, -25 avoid ]:
2. +60 W/Mdef, +20 avoid
3. +120 W/Mdef, +30 avoid
4. +180 W/Mdef, +40 avoid
5. +240 W/Mdef, +50 avoid
6. +300 W/Mdef, +60 avoid

[X duration, X cd, 10 sp. just throwing this in here for fun, we're all havin fun here. total crash was a brand new skill!]


anyway, i would rather talk about heros. because almost everyone has a hero in their pocket (because 90% of people ditched them because they are pretty boring and are easily overlooked depending on your party composition) they can revive over night if the enrage buff is exploitable or muleable, which if popular request is what we're doing in this thread, it will be. there's not very many good alternative enrage suggestions in my himbo opinion, and even less that wouldn't make the new suggestion an instant meta, which in something that needs to be considered, even if heros kind of need that, and they very much can afford it in their SP

ACA and enrage are the only skills that can really be played with (unless you want to give hero's gaurdian skill a baked in counter skill, which would really incentivize it and be great, and make guardian users much more careful and that would be a really great additional risk/reward that isn't as braindead as it currently is, and give hero's a nice, slightly sweaty edge if they want to maximize it, which i really like.) and besides aca and enrage, some third job considerations, namely the finishers, panic + coma.

i've made lots of suggestions for hero, but here are sincere suggestion concepts for them right now (any numbers i suggest are variable)

ACA

• doubles orb accrual at 40% chance at max [instead of 60%] (level 1: 10%, level 30: 40%
• lowers combo duration to 150 seconds, 2.5 minutes [instead of 200 seconds, 3.3 minutes]
• last 20 seconds of max ACA 10 combo adds an extra 10% to brandish vs. single targets
• also buffs panic and coma if used with max ACA orbs
• successful guardian guard procs a combo orb (good QoL for the shield+guardian user contingent)
• orbs have diff color during last 20 seconds to alert the player and party ("4th job" gold?)
• shout gets increased damage and range during last 20 seconds

[slightly slower wind-up, better single target damage at the end of combo for 20 seconds, with a lower overall combo duration. overall buffs]


Enrage / Heroics

• gives a random party member behind you in range a stance effect when hit, costs 2 orbs, or 1 orb if using guardian, 15 second CD at max. doesn't work on warriors. can be toggled on/off
• passively raises STR +30, DEX +20
  
• 100% accuracy required to block party members
• requires 5 or more combo orbs to proc

[works instantly like a one time 100% stance per cd window on a nearby party member, doesn't block damage. imo this is so much more useful and interesting than an attack buff. very dynamic, fun party buff, with lots of anti-mule conditions, as well as passive buffs for those who want a similar enrage buff, but you can optionally use the heroic benefits or not depending on your party composition or field placement. you wouldn't even need to change the skill icon, it fits. and you can take the blue guardian animation and make it gold when it procs over party members.
i think excluding other warriors and buccs is a good idea, but it would possibly diminish hero's invitation to melee parties if this was the only change. so i think warriors or buccs not currently using stance effect skills is a good exclusion so it prioritizes ranged, mage, thieves (who don't really need it but NL will love it, and sairs, who will really love it. it being toggle-able, and the passive str/dex buff make it flexible for all players, and gives hero's a small asked for buff.]


Guardian (Hero)

• also deals counter damage when parrying, 150%, not affected by SE
• can accrue a combo orb when guardian procs if combo is active
• requires accuracy to deal counter damage

[nice passive dmg QoL for the minority of 1h Axe/Sword heros, for the 15% of touch damage they take, and can go towards combo count. like the heroics acc requirement, this also requires acc as an anti-mule/pure HP measure]


Panic/Coma

• buffed by ACA, panic costs 1 orb, reduced or no multiplier
• panic can deal a darkness effect, like blind, temporarily vs bosses [misses = stance], possibly different rates as blind, MP -66
• buffed by ACA, coma costs 3 orbs, reduced multiplier, can only be used during weapon cancel, bypasses, MP -150

[gives them way, way more utility while not overpowering them. gives panic it's intended darkness effect, which gives hero's a nice indirect party buff with lowered boss acc [miss = stance], which can be an alternative to the heroics party stance if you don't like that route. and gives coma a WC niche. if we are nitpicking, i think the panic/coma attack animations should be switched: panic should be the eye, coma should be the weird geometry symbol]

overall they play the same, and have the same skills, but are given slight buffs where they are being asked (single target buff), conditional party buffs (panic+heroics), conditional combo attack buffs (panic+coma), passive str+dex buffs, and makes them way more dynamic and fun to play.

 

I was just looking @ my World/Bowman ranking today and was curious.

I have 2 lvl 200 MMs,

• 1st one hit 200 before my 3 to 3.5 year break in 2019.
• 2nd one hit 200 in 2023 around march-may I believe
• When I came back I farmed for 5-6 months straight. So there was approx. a 4 year gap between my 2 lvl 200s

So within approximately a 4-year span, there was an additional 2360 level 200s (thanks LHC)

Despite an additional 2360 level 200s, only 297 of those were Bowmen.

I feel we can have a strong assumption most people do not get any of their mages to 200, but there was a period of time when people were abusing hexa mage LHC farming.

• That one mage main who created the system alone had like 20-30 lvl 200 mages
• When LHC came out people would farm it on the AM for totems even without doing hexa-clienting
• Many people followed suit of that mage main to farm hexa-LHC (DICKDANN, etc.)

There is honestly most likely more lvl 200 mages than bowmen within this 4 year span.

While Corsair had the lowest character creation rate in 2023. People do not play bowmen, they make SE mules.

 

Random thought:
Heroes are pretty unanimously agreed to be subpar at the moment. Not bad by any means, just a bit outclassed by... everything else. One commonly proposed solution is making Rage and or Enrage stackable with other atk buffs, but backend limitations would make this really hard to implement.
Now, I have no idea if this would be feasible at all, but what about changing Enrage to affect the one aspect of combat that no other party buff affects: mastery? There are buffs for weapon attack, base stats, attack speed, accuracy, and critical change, but since no active buff affects mastery, it wouldn't be conflicting with any other active buffs, at least.
Again, if I had to guess I would say this is probably not feasible, but it would be cool if Enrage was turned into something like a +10% buff to mastery as a party buff.

 

Would buffing Rage/Enrage make Hero not be subpar/outclassed to you?

 

That depends on why people consider them subpar. I personally think it mostly comes down to their DPS being middling and having no party utility. Why play a hero when a paladin can do the same damage with the same gear and also bring a useful buff? My thinking is that if Heroes also had a useful buff, that would make them equivalent to paladins, and thus not subpar or outclassed.
Of course, I'm also hesitant to suggest anything that would make people even stronger...

 

i think we need to broaden our thinking about party buffs for heroes. we operate in a mandatory attack buff meta--name a boss run that is without them. also, we keep adding new attack potions to the game. there are also lots of different potions for different occasions. if we don't have a smart-buff system, a party attack buff is likely useless in high end bossing. also, it would need to be not abusable--there's lots of scrapped heroes out there, and they will have high HP, so muling will be pretty comfy.

if were just going the attack/mastery/w.def ignore aspect, the buff needs requirements. all 10 orbs, ACA required, attacking/active participation to accrue orbs. should also have a CD.

a mastery buff is a huge party buff. it's not a bad idea at all, but even 5% is a huge buff over the course of a boss fight. i just think that damage is the last place we need to look when improving a class, especially with the ever expanding attack gulf for some players and new att pots and gear.

there's a million ways to improve a class or buff the party that doesn't involve damage.

i just don't think it would help them as much as other possibilities, or enrich the class in the broader bossing party meta.

i'll throw some more suggestions into the mix as well:

[Shell Crash]
can crash/cancel damage reflect. can also significantly lower weapon and magic defense for a short period. costs 10 orbs, has CD. (and possibly consumes a magic crystal. i think this is fair for the m.def drop, and the DR shatter effect).
this could also be a finisher, instead of a crash, so it also inflicts damage (can hit through DR 100% at max, x amt of dmg, maybe can bypass w.cancel, yada yada)
the m.def drop is great for all bs/mages too. there's no other party buff that also helps mage damage. DR shatter is also a great utility.

[Heal/Regen Crash]
can stop/diminish boss healing for a period of time. costs 10 orbs, has CD.
this would be, over time, a great damage boost, especially vs some bosses, and a great party buff.
(instead of a crash style skill, it can also be a finisher that also inflicts damage with the effect of staunched/slowed healing. "mythic stagger" or some such name)

both are open niches that help all parties and single play more than just some attack buff.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting stuff. Making Enrage a party buff will in effect make people stronger. The question is.. Without having to think about the numbers (because Matt/Staff will decide on that in the end)... What do you think would be a good status effect for a Party-esque Enrage? We've already had a couple of suggestions:

• Attack/Magic A. increase
• All stat increase
• Weapon/Magic Mastery
• Weapon/Magic Defense Penetration (or reduction on mobs/boss)
• Stance-lite
• Total Crash
• Damage Reflect removal
• "Grievous wound" - Heal/Regen reduction/removal

 

An actually meaningful Weapon/Magic defense buff would be neat. There are already a couple defense buffs but they're all like 20 defense which is only going to be noticeable on 1st job enemies.
Sort of like how in certain ttrpgs "Enrage" makes you resistant to all damage, maybe instead of a combat buff Enrage could be a defensive buff, giving several hundred weapon and magic defense.
This would be another way to alleviate washing concerns, and at least be a little nice for reducing the need for potions. I'm sure DKs would love taking a few hundred less damage per hit.

 

Damage reflect removal would be nice depending on what the staff is changing to that buff based on their staff blog a while ago.

Currently the buff is just anti-hurricane, anti-rapid fire and a HP check (though all these can be overcomed by timing the buff). Let’s not forgot magic reflect ignoring magic guard being a huuuuuge hp check.