Petition to add that the use of the Alternate Graphic (AltGr) key is illegal to the Game Terms

Petition to add that the use of the Alternate Graphic (AltGr) key is illegal to the Game Terms & Conditions.

As according to this post https://royals.ms/forum/threads/clarification-of-third-party-hard-and-software-benefits.136768/

Even though it doesn't expressively say that the use of the AltGr is illegal to use, it apparently is.
This sentence is what states that the use of it is not allowed.

• Rebinding multiple actions like Genesis/Blizzard/Meteor + teleport (+ arrowkey) to one key is not allowed

This is only posted in the post above and is posted in the announcement part of the forums and not anywhere else.
An announcement from 5 years ago is not something that I read when I start playing on a new server.
BUT I do read the Game Terms & Conditions. And nowhere there this post is mentioned.

As you get a rather severe punishment for using the AltGr key.

1. Game Hacking - The act of using or benefiting from any third-party program or macro program, editing or defacing any part of the game to gain any sort of advantage over other players, or otherwise selling, advertising, distributing, or posting information related to the act.

​

As seen it does not mention anything about the rules of using already built in features of windows or a normal keyboard.
This was unclear to me and multiple people I asked (that some played on this server for 3-4 years) about this until I got the clarification thread linked to me by Tim in the shoutbox.

With that said I would like to petition to add this clearly into the Game Terms & Conditions so that new players and even those who've starting playing after this post was made, can all get a fair chance to learn the rules of the server.

This so no one get banned for not searching up a 5 year old post, or read all the sticky threads in the announcement channel.

 

The AltGr key is not a third party software/rebind/remap of keyboard in any form. It's a basic function of the keyboard. The AlternateGraphic key is a default key, on our keyboards. That is why more people than me are uninformed about the illegal use of it. The rules are unclear.

The 1:1 action is clear. But that is only mentioned together with key rebinding/remapping.

 

As mentioned

I explained that it is a default key on our keyboards.
And if you're really interested in what countries that use this as a standard layout you could go on the exact website you found that picture on (I'll relink it to you here if you forgot where you found that picture). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr_key

I would assume you do not live in one of these countries and therefor do not know about this.
But this is a normal keyboard layout for all of us in these countries.
If you do not live here, its not weird that you don't the the AltGr key. But for us living here.
It's a normal function on a standard layout keyboard.

This is why I want to highlight the issue. We are all from different places and if we who are in this situation could have clear instructions from when we start playing on the server, it would be great! So there is no misconceptions about what rules to play by.

It's really unnecessary to try to solve this issue by being kind of condescending. You might not mean anything by it but that is how I interpret your latest answer. And if you are not I'm sorry for making that assumption.

 

I'm confused as to why you think the method is a variable when the rule itself strictly speaks that you're allowed to only do 1:1 substitutions. A good metaphor is that the TOS states you can't look over the 10m fence, thats the rule. Then you come with a pogostick and are confused why you were removed from the yard, even though you understand the pogostick lets you see over the fence, that's why you have it/brought it.

 

To be fair, the metaphor isn't great imo. The OP seems to be saying that part of the rules imply using a standard keyboard with no third party software is okay --> no worries as long as youre just using normal soft/hardware. I do agree overall that the 1:1 binding rule is pretty comprehensive but I could see the perspective on wanting more clarity for the key. Not a big deal either way imo

I think the adjusted metaphor is that you go into the yard knowing theres a list of rules, decide not to read it all, then use a pogo stick you see already in the yard to jump more than 10m which prohibited by the rules. Not trying to be pedantic, just saying his suggestion is not that outlandish

 

I would say it is like, you are not allowed to look over the 10m fence but you are 11m tall so you need to avoid looking towards the fence or you will break the rule involuntary.

The use of the AltGr key was even allowed to be used in MSGlobal until 2019 and it is still a greyarea to "spanishkeyboard" there,

 

The downside to explicitly including this example in the ToS: it encourages players to assume that every possible scenario that is not allowed, is explicitly mentioned in the ToS. Far better that people know that actions must be 1:1, and if they are not, that they must ask a GM if it is allowed, or just not do it. Do many players actually have keyboards with this functionality?

 

If you go to this link and scroll down as I told Dave, you will see all countries that have this as a default key on their keyboard.

The problem with this is that the rules say that using third party software, rebinding, remapping you're allowed to do whatever as long as it's 1:1.

It doesn't mention anything about using a default function of a standardized keyboard.
I don't even want to use this function myself, I don't care if it is banned. But I think it should be clear that it is not allowed.
It doesn't matter how I set my keyboard settings in-game, if I accidently press my AltGr key I will always do both of whatever skill/jump/teleport that is configured on my Ctrl and Alt key at the same time.
My only choice will be to never put a skill on my Ctrl key or never put a skill on my Alt key. It will always function like this if I'm not forced to remap my default keyboard settings.
And that goes for everyone in the countries on the list.

The only place where this is mentioned as an illegal action is in the post Tim posted in announcements, as I linked in my original post.
I just simply suggest that the lines:

Example of in-game use cases:

• Rebinding multiple actions like Genesis/Blizzard/Meteor + teleport (+ arrowkey) to one key is not allowed
• Using the AltGr key to perform multiple actions in-game - is not allowed
• Using a double-click function that requires one key press like '+' in Windows mouse keys (for meso dropping for example) is not allowed

Should be added to the Game Terms & Conditions so its clear from the start. So you don't have to find the post in announcements to actually know what rules apply.

 

They're not gonna ban you or anybody else for accidentally pressing it. There is a big difference between accidental and deliberate use of that functionality.

Do we have many players from that list of countries though?

Not super opposed, and it's up to the staff, I just pointed out a downside of it. Why bother to make a poll and discussion thread about it if you're just gonna argue with everybody who disagrees with you and to tell them they're wrong?

 

"Why bother to make a poll and discussion thread about it if you're just gonna argue with everybody who disagrees with you and to tell them they're wrong?"

Is that not the point of a discussion? Obv he seems pretty dead set on it but hes making his argument in a civil manner and engaging in the argument in good faith and has somewhat reasonable suggestions.

I think you do make a great point about accidental vs intentional clicks and how overspecifying TOS can have downsides though so he shouldve addressed that

 

If the rule is that you can't macro keys to do multiple functions, why does it matter if it's 3rd party, time travel, or with a cat? Fixating on the ways it can be done, doesn't bring any leverage in the equation that you shouldn't be doing anything that involves a key doing multiple functions.

 

Let's start out by answering your questions. My intention is to open a discussion of the matter at hand and I am trying to speak up on how I'm interpret the rules as one person who is experiencing, what I think is an issue with how the rules are formulated as, as sentences.
I am willing to answer you and whoever else that is opposed, think differently or just think I'm stupid, as long as the issue I'm experiencing is getting some attention.
That you are having opposite thoughts than me is just good, BUT I will still hold on to my view of it as long as someone as yourself, don't change my mind, which I am completely open for.
So I wouldn't say that I'm just arguing with people and tell them that they are wrong. But I will give you an answer to what you say in your reply in this thread.

As for how many players we got in different countries I can not answer. I could make a unqualified guess that the high majority of all European players have this key on their keyboard.

And I know that people probably won't get banned for accidently using a button once or twice, but what I am saying is that it is technically an illegal move anyway and that should be clear so people can avoid it.
Just because that there is nowhere specified that you are not allowed to use a default standardized key.

As this smart person said, If the rule was that you can't macro keys to do multiple functions. Which they according to me don't, that would be great.
I'm might not be the best person to come up with a sentence that cover all bases, but I would after this comment like to say that what Rhynhardt said:

"anything that involves a key doing multiple functions" other than the in-game macro function - is not allowed


Again I will try to explain my thought process and you're welcome to correct me if you find that I'm in the wrong in some way.
I will mark the words in these sentences with bold that technically remove the use of AltGr as a rule violation, and will explain why under every section.

This is what the rules says:

Game Hacking - The act of using or benefiting from any third-party program or macro program, editing or defacing any part of the game to gain any sort of advantage over other players, or otherwise selling, advertising, distributing, or posting information related to the act.

- As this apply to third-party program, macro program, edits or defacing. This should not be applicable as the AltGr key is a default key that has nothing to do with the above.

Game Hacking - You are allowed to rebind keys in a 1:1 action matter with third party software as there is no direct benefit in doing that over using the default keys. We also allow the use of controllers and remapping software for example, as long as the player can reply while playing to not be mistaken for a bot.

- Same here, AltGr is not a rebind or third-party. It is however a default key.

Glitch Abuse - The act of exploiting any errors in game design or any features or bugs, documented or otherwise, that are not meant to be available in order to gain any sort of advantage over other player

- This section is kind of irrelevant as its not what the infraction goes by, but this is a function from the original game that was not deemed a bug/error by GMS.

Glitch Abuse - In any situation where a player is uncertain if the function of the game they are attempting to utilize is intended or not, we strongly advise the player to contact a member of Staff, or as a last resort, inquire among other players. Many of the glitches that exist within our game are known and players are told that, while a fix is being worked on, they are to avoid these actions at the risk of consequences under the glitch abuse rule. In addition, if a player discovers a glitch that has not been reported, we advise the player to immediately report it to a member of Staff to avoid any consequences.

- This is what I am trying to do, to make it fair and clear for all players from whatever region people come from. And when I did, I got sent a link to the announcement and not the rules. And from that I would assume that some staff might already be aware that this is not in the Game R&C, but they do know it is in the announcements, which is why I would speak for that they put it in the rules, for no more understandings.


I like the discussion and if you would find anything in the rules that clearly states that, a default key, without any programs or edits is not allowed to be used if it triggers two actions, I'm pretty certain I would change my mind.
Or if you have any other ways to resolve this I welcome it with open arms.

I was recently informed about this post https://royals.ms/forum/threads/ban-appeal.159392/#post-938730
Which says that using the AltGr is considered by staff to be the use of a 2:1 action. Which I can agree on, I just want people to be able to know that without having to search the forum for old posts.
(***EDIT***
I think this sentence might also be a good add to the rules:
- Using the AltGr key or similar default keys that can trigger more than one action in-game - Are not allowed.
***EDIT***)
And it was also mentioned that the rules where deemed unclear by staff and what I cant see both Game T&C and the announcement post have been edited after this happened.
But unfortunately I still find the rules unclear and I would just like to help others be aware of this, before someone misunderstands the rules, because I would see that as an unfair ban.

I also understand that this can be hard to grasp if you don't experience it yourself, so I'm sorry if I'm not making sense or explain properly as English isn't my first language.

Thanks if you read all this, and if you have any suggestions on how I could update my original post with improvements to make it more understandable or better, I would appreciate that.

 

Out of all the information you extrapolate, why do you avoid the detail that clearly defines the limitations of utilizing this function? It's not even consistent to what you're arguing, your claim is this is how you read the sentence:

How does that correlate to your rationale that ALTGR should be specified, when the way you read the sentence has no limitations of methodologies? Otherwise you would concede that the "1:1 action matter" is enough of an identifier to stress limitations - where the methodology of how you you remap the keys is irrelevant.

This discussion is so stupid

 

This whole section mention what you are allowed to do, it doesn't specify, what you're not allowed to do. That is why I think its not clear.
The whole Game hacking part has to do with rebind and programs that modify, I'm FULLY aware that this is not seen as a 1:1 by the GMs which I have explained earlier.
I honestly don't see how I could interpret the sentence in a way that it mentions a default key.

And exactly what you say, the sentence can be read on multiple ways, that's why there is a grey area, because people are different and interpret things differently.
If it somewhere said that only 1:1 actions are allowed, I would completely buy your argument. But it doesn't and it only specify what is allowed to do with rebinds.

I am fairly certain that "You are allowed to rebind keys in" a 1:1 action matter "with third party software as there is no direct benefit in doing that over using the default keys." is also a part of this sentence.
I interpret a sentence by all the words in the sentence.


If you don't want to be a part of a "stupid" discussion, you are free not to be.

 

I think it's pretty clear if you're aware that the royals ToS are enforced by the spirit of the law, not the exact wording. As in, if you try to find some sneaky technical loophole you're still probably going to get banned.

If you don't know this, then I understand how it could be confusing.

 

Yes, I am aware and I think I've been pretty clear that I don't want to use this function anyway.
But to people who played MSGlobal a long time ago when this was allowed, it might be confusing when it's not allowed on this server.
I don't try to make some rule exception or anything, I want it do be clear that it's not allowed when you read the rules, so some unfortunate soul don't get banned as soon as they start playing on the server for doing something that has been allowed at earlier times of the game and here its not.
I really just want to help make it easier for new people on the server to understand the rules.

 

This is a binary statement, the fact you think that they have to specify additionally what isn't allowed is an irrational expectation.

The limitation is not the method its the 1:1 binary. You keep bolding around the sentence fragment claiming ambiguity. I posted a sentence removing that "1:1" to demonstrate that your perceived interpretation doesn't make sense. I know English probably isn't your first language but your response to me just screams illiteracy.