We have seen discussions in the community blacklist lately regarding store scams and it was suggested that a poll might be a good thing. What is a store scam? A store scam is when someone is intentionally trying to highball an item way above its worth. This can for example be trying to sell brown work gloves with failed upgrade slots for the same price as a clean brown work glove. A store scam can also be selling bundle items like zombie tooth for (as an example): 4,999 mesos each, but putting one of them up for 49,999 mesos in hopes that someone will quickly buy the teeth, including the 49,999 one by accident. What are the discussions about? Some members believe it should be put on the blacklist because it's a scummy thing to do. That's understandable. Some members believe it's not worth it because it's either difficult to prove it was an attempted scam and not a mistake, or because most store scammers use mules they can easily get rid of to cover their tracks. This is also understandable. Why the poll? As stated above, it can be tough to prove someone did it intentionally. If we are inclined to believe one user made a mistake, we pretty much have to believe anyone when they say it was a mistake. And even if we don't, it's often useless to blacklist them as pointed out by some members, since the scammers often use mules they can easily get rid of anyway. The thing is, I think both sides have good points. It is the buyers responsibility to check what they are buying. But it is also scummy as hell to attempt to trick people, obviously. Vote and let me know in the comments what you think!
I Voted - Keep putting them on the blacklist in some cases (explain in comments) the explanation is simple. if they advertise lets say 0/6 bwg as clean bwg on store and put it the same price as 0/7 thats intentional scam and should be blacklisted.. But if not it is the BUYER's responsibility to check what they buy.
Imo scamming this word is like when both side agree with it and end up seller give a different item, but thats imposible to make a agreement with the shop for both side, buyer control the mouse and keyboard to buy it or not, like we say we quickly buy it and miss clicked the expensive item, we could prevent by checking all the price first only start the purchase, and seller earn nx for store and hunt those item by themself we should leave the right for them to set up whatever price they wanted, if buyer feel expensive just skip it, we cant control everyone by the way, and guide is guide, we cant control everyone to selling the same price it was just a guideline to help us easy to set the price when we need, when people complaining it was expensive compare to guide, then should seller complain even the price is lower a lot from the guide still unsold? We need to be fair and think both side for buyer and seller, i always shopping fm also but i at least wont go buy those expensive thing, we can just leave it and let the seller revise the price until someone willing to buy it, theres no need to post and arguing for this kind of thing. FYI we dont sponsor nx or item for seller to open their shop, so i trust that we wont have right to help them decide what they should do or cant do. TY
One alternative I guess is to not bother putting them on the list itself, but still allow reports to come through to warn other players or something So what you are saying is, The Blacklist should be The Greylist?
Better is player all alert when they buying anything instead of hoping other to become perfect, we can change ourself but is hard to change and control everyone, the picture cynn posted in comm bl is good example for buyer, stay alert and skip those unreasonable price item rather than argue here coz of BUYER ownself dint see properly what they buying before clicking, this the last comment for me about this case so have fun everyone
Imo the blacklist was suppose to be a place to flag players that do things that aren't bannable to promote good behaviour and punish players who behave poorly. Ofcourse, there is liablity for the buyer to check the item before he makes the purchase and listing the seller on the blacklist wont usually give him the mesos back, but it sometimes does the job in theese cases. If we discard the blacklist and allow everyone to just shopscam in the server, more likely the newer players will get hurt by it the most and it will kill the continuity of the server and make people wanna leave the server before even being a part of the community and making friends. I appreciate the blacklist as it is. No change needed in my opinion. Edit: If you think its useless and vote to remove it, you can just let it exist as it is and ignore the shop scam list. The blacklist provides information, not calls for action.
I don't think it's that black and white. There's a bit of a cultural and political element here. It comes down to your values and beliefs about free will. It is also very difficult to prove intent with shop scamming in many cases. It's not right to be maintaining a "guilty until proven innocent" list, and just saying that people can ignore it if they disagree. Also, where do you draw the line, and how do you determine the difference (in many cases) between scamming, a lack of knowledge of prices, and overpricing? As a bit of a different example of the problem here, that might make more sense. Imagine that I start a thread for making a list of people who defame (once) or have damage that I consider to be not pro enough. If you disagree with that, then I could just tell you to just not view that thread. But the point remains that those on my list could still be impacted by negative consequences of those who do follow it. My main reason for voting no longer bothering with it is that it leads to drama and division within the community, for no clear gain to anybody. Blacklisting shop scammers does not act as a deterrent, because shop mules are easily replaceable. It also does not protect anybody, because it's not like those who are vulnerable to getting scammed are going to check the blacklist before they buy from a shop. If they want to be that diligent, then far better that they put their effort into reading the stats and number of slots on the item they are purchasing. Would you turn down a good deal just because it is in the shop of somebody on the blacklist? So really, there is no point to the blacklisting, other than to cause division and drama, and to encourage us wannabe detectives (of which I admit I am guilty of too) to act all high and mighty by posting every shop scam we come across on the blacklist instead of just accepting that we can't control others, and moving on quietly. Also, it is far better to encourage a culture of caution, than one of complaining when things go wrong. It is the same for drop trading. Just don't do it. Complaining on the blacklist after the fact will not get your gear back.
none of the blacklist cases are black and white, the argument you put up here is relevant for every blacklist case from Saledor's to the lowest APQ/CPQ scammer. The 'innocent until proven guilty' is something that rarely happens on the blacklist. People usually address their accusations and clear the issues, sometimes even with a refund for a leech that did not finish or item that has been mispriced, which comes to tell that the current blacklist works. I could pinpoint very specific times where I wanted to buy orbis etc and I avoided specific shops because they were engaged in the past in bundle scams. Most people probably wouldnt care, but I do. I think it only proves the point that the blacklist does not serve a purpose as a 'call for action' but as an informative list that shows cases which people were involved in. When it comes to a different deal with the same people I would probably buy the items probably, but I think it still served a purpose.
Sorry as much as I agree with the moral standpoint you come from, it is almost pointless to have a blacklist for shops. A person can simply bypass this by using a mule/new mules to create stores and put misleading titles. How many people will go out of their way and remember the ign of someone who has intentionally tried to "shop scam" someone. Unless the blacklist is backed by consequences, it's almost pointless. Put some weight behind the blacklist and maybe it'll lead to a change, if not it will go unnoticed. Since I've spent 95% of my game-play time in the free market, I can only say that instead of blacklisting sellers, we should just focus on keeping buyers informed/educated. You cannot stop scammers from trying to scam. However, if people start to be a bit more careful and develop good practices while surfing the FM, these things won't work, and will eventually fade into obscurity. The best thing to do is for players to owl for "high-ticket" items like clean BWG, SCG, etc. or whatever they're looking for that is worth a considerable amount of money. Due diligence is 100% on the buyers part, because when a buyer clicks on a store, it's their duty to check the items that they want to purchase, the price they want to purchase it for and double click to purchase the item. If you cannot spend 10-20 seconds checking the item, what else can you do. I say this is a person who has definitely been misled to buy things just based on confidence in the seller. You are NOT pressured/forced into buying anything from a merchant shop. The whole concept of the free market is as such, and if you feel like crap for overpaying for an item, you shouldn't feel good underpaying for one either, which defeats the whole concept. I take my losses alongside my wins, that's what makes the game fun.
It seems like more than 50% supported keeping it, but it appears to have been deleted. I don’t really mind the decision because I believe the blacklist doesn’t play a significant role and isn’t a positive influence, especially due to the term itself. I hope that someday, a more positive form of communication will be developed instead of a community blacklist or similar stigmas
I believe if this sort of behavior persists there should be punishment, but if you overlook such cases, then it is no different from encouraging the scammers. I find this whole shop scam thing very tricky, either you HAVE to be totally against it without bias, or you have to just accept and not complain about it. There isn't a middle ground. I think this is not the player bases fault, but rather a "lacking" in the rules and enforcement. It's nice of you to overlook it, but it doesn't help. I understand not wanting to get into drama, but not speaking up for yourself just cause its a mutual friend or something isn't the right way. In fact, all the more you should say something when its someone you mutually know. I believe that if you want to add these cases to the blacklist, then it's better to create a new blacklist specifically for this behaviour: i.e easier to keep track and hopefully after some point GM's will see this behaviour from recurring players and hopefully enforce some sort of punishment. Can't emphasize punishment enough here. I absolutely agree with "minimal preventive measure", but the current blacklist isn't it. Judging by how long Royals has been around and the almost non-existent effect it has had on shop scammers, you can see why I don't think it's the right approach. You're right, I just feel the blacklist is too saturated for something like this to be effective atm. Shops can be shared between characters so I don't think that helps, but yeah I totally get where you're coming from. Yeah, everything I'm saying is shop related, not like direct transaction. If you get scammed and overpay for something and feel bad, then what if you buy something that was listed too cheap accidentally? I think the main point I'm trying to get to here is when it comes to Shop Merchants (afk shops), the due diligence really lies on the buyer. Why? Because 1) The shop isn't equipped to deceive players. Items are listed there, along with their price, stats, etc. There is no room for "scamming" bar human error i.e misjudgement/carelessness of the buyer. 2) You are not time-pressured when it comes to buying something from a merchant, so when you shop you really have no reason to make a mistake bar human error i.e misclick, didn't look carefully. 3) The same way you would buy something underpriced/undervalued instantly, there is also the opposite. Of course sellers selling a perf clean item with 1 slot less for the price of the original full slotted item with intention to scam is deplorable, but there is no real way to prove intention unless its a repeat offender (or person has been "blacklisted" as you said). But when the person is aware they are blacklisted, there are always ways around it. In a perfect world, the buyer should have been perma-banned but that's not how it is. Obvious intention to deceive on his part. All in all we are coming from the same place, just that I don't see any other solution other than a separate blacklist with some sort of "enforcement" when players are repeat offenders or are caught intentionally trying to scam. This is something that should be in the rules, because once a scammer, always a scammer. I know you mean well, and I hope something can be done to deter these scammy sellers as well.
Personally I think it's fine to include in the blacklist but perhaps have some changes set to reporting them as long as the person maintaining it is fine with adding them. Considering from what everyone else seems to be saying, where people just create shop mules anyway - I don't think it would be feasible for Shiratsuyu to maintain a list of shop scammers where the IGNs in question are simply disposable characters and that the list would be very quickly be 'outdated'. There's also on the opinion of someone whom genuinely may not realize the prices they set are wrong (or I guess accordance to the FM prices) and then got reported to the blacklist where no one may believe their words. I've only just started playing a couple of months ago so I'm not sure if the shop chat is public to all to see (or just the shop owner can see them) or how much people keep in eye on their shop whenever they are playing - but perhaps before reporting them to the blacklist, just writing something like "Not clean bwg, 0/6" or something on the shop chat that is advertising a clean one can inform both customers (if chat is public) and the seller and you can check back later or something. If the seller sees it, and see it as a mistake they will most likely remove/set new price or if trying to scam will probably reset away the shop to remove the message and you probably will have a good chance of knowing their motives before reporting them (Although there is always a chance the shop closed before they reset it too). If the customers sees it before the shop is reset there is a chance they may notice what you've wrote and is informed about it. This adds a layer to reporting shop scammers that reduces the chance of someone just accidentally typing another 9 to the price without realizing, or didn't notice the stats that they are selling. But in any case, I think informing potential buyers/victims whether through blacklisting and/or just writing it in the shop chat is fine. Just that whether it would be feasible to maintain it for the thread owner (In this case Shiratsuyu). If not, maybe someone that is willing to maintain it could make a scam thread separate from the Blacklist.
Customers can't see chats written before they entered the shop. But yes for shop scams I'm all for requiring at least some attempt to let them know of the error and fix it before blacklisting, if we're keeping this blacklistable
Ok, so technically shop scamming is not a bannable offense since under the spoiler tag for 'moderate infractions' it does state that: "cases such as accidentally buying questionably overpriced items in the free market are not covered by this rule". Regardless, I still consider shop scams to be an act of fraud and generally a scummy thing to do regardless of whether or not it can be properly punished or deterred. Perhaps a separate list can be made of players who have (most likely) intentionally engaged in this sort of behavior. It doesn't make much sense to me when I see legit players getting unjustly banned while blatant scammers like these go completely unpunished.
Late to the party, but its case by case specific. If a player has a history of shop scams, its less likely an accident. Also should be noted how they react once called out, and how quickly. Reaction can tell a lot about the intention
