It would be nice if Rage could be made to stack with your atk pots so it actually offers some decent utility that the whole party can benefit from. This would be an enormous buff I feel is much needed for the class.
That's been offered tons of times in the class feedback thread. But I don't think people understand how bad idea this is. A. You can just give 12 Att bonus to people with 65 cgs and 95 dps, it's just too powerful, 12 Att cost them like 500-1000b, you can't just hand it out for free. B. It wouldn't change anything, people would just make a hero mule and use it, no one would take a hero to their party for that.
I agree somewhat, but then again - SE improves NLs dps by 53%, and other classes by somewhere between 5% and 12%, SI improving dps by like 5% to 20% for most classes (excluding NLs and shads) (https://royals.ms/forum/threads/effectiveness-of-speed-infusion-2-0.223317/) Im pretty sure 12 att wouldn't increase peoples damage by 20% for the vast majority of cases, making rage be less useful on most classes. Even if 12 att stacked is too much, wouldn't it be pretty simple to just nerf the amount of WA rage does, and still make it stack? IMO, a hero buff should definitely be to it's party support, whether that be the simple (but pretty obvious) buff to make rage stackable (could even be nerfed to 5 att or something) - or/and change enrage to make the whole party deal flat/% more damage for the duration. Doing those two things, would make rage a useful skill, but still prevent people just bringing bloodwashed ragemules to everything, since you need to actively play to use enrage. Straight up buffing heroes damage is never gonna work for the overall balance of the game, since drk's and heroes currently serve the EXACT same role: deal damage with one skill, that can hit up to 3 mobs. Drk's ofcourse being harder to play (and more expensive - you can't use %hp pots when zerking). If heroes were buffed to deal the same (or almost the same) amount of damage as drk's, you would overnight kill the drk class and it's identity.
The SE case isn't really a valid argument, without SE NL is just a trash class. And sure others buffs give a significant buffs to classes. I think the main difference is that we have a current situation with classes and buffs, you could argue it's bad and you would probably be right. But it's the current situation, you can't just shake it completely. Anyway about buffing heroes, I agree it need some buff, rage stack isn't the solution. The hero buff is a really complex topic imo, the issue is you got 2 classes which are pretty much the same (hero and drk), they both do 3 target damage and pretty much everything else is the same. Their only difference pretty much is that drk have zerk mechanic, that requires drk to be stronger than hero, to compensate for the zerk mechanic. On the other hand, if drk is just stronger than hero in every possible way, why play hero? What's the solution to this is a question I have no answer to
Yeah i agree, don't have a perfect solution either. My point is just that since they both do the same thing, one way to make them both viable at the same time, would be to seperate them into different roles/identities, where drk's dealt more damage, and heroes would buff the party (this is also kinda in line with the intended roles, since rage was meant/is a party buff, it just happens to omega suck). I see three different options for buffs to heroes in terms of hero/drk balance: Make hero deal the same damage as drk: Noone (apart from zerk/drk purists) would play drk, as you would just play a hero that's capped at 15k hp, being more expensive in pots, and locking you out of certain end game content. Make hero and drk do the same damage, and rework/remove zerking: Make two classes the exact same, which would be super boring imo, and would remove one of the fun/challenging/unique class identities (zerking). Hard pass. Make hero a (more) supportive class, make drk do more damage: Make both classes viable, desired and played.
I agree with the idea, but I still think that making rage stackable is bizzare and generally no one really wants class for their buffs (thats what mules are for). other possible solutions are things like making heros better at 4 target DPS or 2 target DPS but I'm not sure how much sense it makes.
I get that a lot of people have mules for buffs, and use those mules to trio/duo/solo content, and i'm not proposing to remove that option/playstyle at all. But if were talking about balancing the game, so that class diversity and identity improves and evens out, i think that "generally no one really wants class for their buffs (thats what mules are for)" is a bit of a sad statement. I would hope that in a future balance update/meta scenario, people were MORE likely to seek out a diverse party, so as to not increase the 5 shads/1 bucc or 5 nl/1 se situations.
I personally think that if you need to nerf DrK to make hero viable, that's a big problem. The last solution, which is to make Hero a more supportive class while making DrK to be more of a damage dealer - is good. Rage stacking with att pots is not a terrible idea, rage would just need to be readjusted and nerfed so it won't be too insanely OP, and even then.. Why play hero when u can play DrK? Even DrK - there are many HB mules out there. To make both jobs balanced or at least desired is to buff both classes, each in a unique way, so ppl can start actually see the difference between them. As of this moment - Hero is just the T-e-m-u version of a DrK with less damage.
Drk is kind of a popular class, but, in my experience is mostly cs a lot of ppl want to "try it out" , theres little ppl( that i know) who actually wanna main a drk, is just for the experience of have a bit more challenging gameplay, compared to their real mains shad/nl. The reason behind it is that, multitarget role is kind of sucky in general on game, in bosses where a multitarget role should be a must, or at a very least very, VERY differencial, theyre just "as good, or a bit better" as a strong single atacker one. In zak, 3 nls att will make pretty much the same time as 2nls- 1 drk/hero. In HT if the party is smaller than 4 ppl, 3nl/shad vs replacing 1 with a drk/hero makes no difference, and it actually makes it slower if its a duo. In VL both cant be compared to shad cs it does more single target dmg while offering a better control( hits 4 targets) and utility. CWKPQ is the only place they fullfill their actual role of being superior and kind of a must ( and if you think of carefully most ppl dont really care if u bring a drk or a hero, as long as u can do bottom bosses dmg/ control). All the other bosses are single target and its consider kind of a troll to even bring a hero to. So if theres no interisting/fun mechanic, no utility and no advantage to have a multitarget role aside shad, then why on earth will ppl make a hero?. Now the balance of Drk/Hero is a very delicate thing, if you make a wrong move you will have either a long ass thread of ppl raging over a trash buff for heros thats been waited for literally years or a bunch of Drks raging over having to zerk( to be fair zerk is not as hard as it used to be, but its not nothing either) and being weaker than a deadbrain class as hero. So, at the end aside buffin heros in some way, the content also needs to be tweaked favoring multitarget (have proposed this for years with ideas on specific bosses) to make heros a desirable class, being carefull of not buffing shads again. IDK, out of the blue i would say nerf shads target from 4 to 2 buffing a bit the dmg, or buff Heros targets to 5 and Drks to 4( take it with a grain of salt, just quick ideas without much tought) Only then can properly buff heros, in terms of utility preferably, cause a dmg buff would cause what i described above. The buff has to be: 1.- A 4th Job skill 2.- Needs the Hero to be active 3.- Party buff, prefferably that affects more to another underwhelmed classes( extra stance- STR buff-etc)
This might be moving slightly off the topic of hero specific balancing, and more on to general class balancing, but i agree. Heroes and warriors in general would definitely fill a bigger roll, if shad/bucc mobbing damage was somewhat reduced. I also like this angle, since it won't touch shad/bucc 1v1 dps, meaning that those who heavily invested in shad/bucc wouldn't get hit as bad.
-make heroes party buff related the aca so they have to be active to maintain it - make the buff stance or damage resistance -give heroes 4-6 targets with mobbing -give drks 4 targets with crusher and single target impaler -uncap paladins so they stay the best single target warrior
Random thought (partly inspired by recent my BPQ runs on my Crusader, by all means no expert in hero game play): Whenever Hero uses Panic/Coma (or skills that consume orbs), apply a X watt Rage buff to the entire party for X amount of seconds corresponding to the # of orbs consumed. Like 5 orbs consumed, apply a 8s Rage buff to party giving them 8 watt for the duration. (The exact watt/duration/orb numbers needs tweaking, overall idea is that the Hero must actively attack and re-gen orbs to keep up this party buff, not do this just once every 2min like a mule). It needs active game play to maintain the buff (so you can't just make a Hero mule and push a button every 2min), it doesn't change anything to the Hero solo game play, makes Hero party game play a bit more interactive. Should take a small hit in damage done by the Hero in party game play situations but the Watt benefit to the party outweighs the loss of personal damage (need tweaking on the watt/duration/orb numbers so it balances out and not overshine having a DrK's damage instead). Probably gonna be a pain to code it 2-3 target Damage is where I think Drk/Hero should shine, (like in BPQ where DrKs are really good), but once 4th job hits unless u need a Rush/Push don't people just make Shads for OP B-step instead....
i think changing hero to be a buccaneer-esque style (utility-based + heavy multi-target emphasis class) would be a mistake and is actually deviating away from the class identity. People!! The class is called "Hero" for a reason, i doubt people are choosing to play heroes because they want to be placed in a supportive role. i've spoken at length about this in the past, probably a good idea to talk about it again since balance patch is looming. The imbalance between hero/drk, as many have pointed out, stems from their similar playstyle, except drks have the caveat of needing to zerk, so heroes certainly can't be straight up buffed as it would be unfair to drks. So what do?! The way i see it, heroes' playstyle has to be changed first. Panic attack can be buffed to a point that if a hero religiously uses panic each time the ACA orb counter is full, they can outdps drk slightly (7-8%) only on single target. This means there is a compromise of needing to pay attention to their orb counter if they want to outdps zerking drks, if not, they can just brandish brainlessly the way they do now and be weaker. Effort = reward, just like zerk. Drks can be buffed to be able to hit 4 targets, and have their vertical/horizontal range increased slightly so they would be the undisputed strongest multi target class if they are able to zerk 100% uptime. If enrage were to be made a party skill and stackable with attack pots, the anticipated problem of rage mules is already circumvented since enrage requires ACA orbs to use. Currently enrage uses all the orbs, it should probably be adjusted to use lower amount of orbs instead due to dispel being a recurring theme in every end game boss. A change like this would also mean ACA orb counters are of more significance other than just damage for brandish and aesthetics, and there would be a skill element to playing heroes. Paladins should ofc be uncapped, but i think the added element weakness on every single boss from previous patch was not healthy, as i don't think paladins need to necessarily be 'viable' at every content. Their whole gimmick revolves around their different element expertise, and if every boss is gonna have an element weakness, it just doesn't make sense for them to have 4 different kind of elements. I'd much prefer it in a way that certain bosses do not have any element weakness, and for those that do, paladins would absolutely slap on the same level as a corsair slapping krex.
Suggesting buffing brandish damage when it hits only one target. It won’t make hero too op at LHC or other already op situations (Scarga, CWKPQ), and doesn’t change much gameplay. Buff brandish from 260 to 312 (+20%) or 364 (+40%) when it hits only one target.
This could work cool ideia. Why whould you make a class no viable for any content on the game?its like telling a nl will not boss because it not supposed to have high hp. Even after update alot of bosses still have no elemental weekness. To make monster neutral they whould have to make paladins do 100% damage on all monsters and a small buff to elemental weak like 110%, and this change whould only affect paladins and mages bossing, there is no need lol. Now back to heros, spaming panic whouldnt work unless the damage cap was around 500k,heros whould lose too much dps recharging everytime. But making them actually having to recharge combos to deal more damage could be a way to charge the gameplay , maybe making combo have the bonus damage passive and using orbs just to buff coma and panic damage. I dont know how to fix heros and drk roles but for sure both need a damage buff, i have avg cgs and i outdamage most heros and drk using charge blow on my pally. My hero using an apple hit less than my pally using energizer on holy weaks..
Where does your paladin outdps a drk with acb? O_O My 15x drk wrecked my 200 paladin in cwkpq and horntail arms in terms of dps
LHC golens, not sure on royals but on GMS acb was a little bit faster than blast and brandish. Took a SS from both my hero and pally max hit at time and even with almost 3k more range using apple my hero still hitting less than my pally.. *took the wrong image on buffs pala is using holy charge* Edit: do your drk outdamage your pally on Morgana?pally not meant to do botton bosses at cwk; and for HT its also different elements ,for sure a pally will lose trying to using acb on ice e lighting weak at same time. the poor range of skill wont help as well.
Oh yeah, my paladin is also slightly stronger than my drk in terms of single target dps - you just said "i outdamage most heros and drk using charge blow on my pally
