In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Last reply because you have your mind set and I cant convince you. This is just for any of the balance team reading this.

1. WHO said that LHC wasn't designed for mages in mind? Why would the "MOBBING CLASS" not do MOBBING CONTENT. LMAO It was even introduced Post BB as you rightfully said, where mages actually have skills outside of Blizz and Meteor

2. Brother, the problem is not the "breaking through the 10%" the issue is that in an MMO where we currently have a class that cant participate in ANY content in said MMO.
Not even the 90% want us unless its a meme run. You also bring up this point about being good bossers while being able to sell leech/grind/etc but dont people already do that?

People on here do daily bosses on their main then log into their mage(s) to make money.(Some just play their main which is also cool and I do think bossing should be more profitable)
Its just that some people want to boss with their mage because they find that the kit is actually interesting (I know shocking!)

Not saying these people should be GOOD at bossing but it should not be NEARLY as bad as it is now, especially because ALL the Earlygame-Endgame content with groups is either BOSS FOCUSED or involves a BOSS. Are you implying these people should park their mage at level 136 and do nothing else ever with it? Thats just a Cygnus Knight with MW20 (ik its level 120 but still)

3. I still fail to seen how an increase to mage ST will destroy "Class Identity" they'll still be bad classes relegated to mobbing (we still have no major Archmage/Bishop content for except RG btw) lets not fool ourselves.
To even even take your own point with HB and DK, the "90%" have almost never turned me away for saying "J>DrK level xyz" but I have been ignored several times for saying "J> IL MW20 will cheese/pie/apple" because unlike Archmages, DKs have other positive attributes and things they can ACTUALLY contribute to a party.

Don't comment so boldly on balance for a class you either clearly haven't played outside of muling or you just hate, its incredibly insulting to the people who actually invest and play these classes.

 

I have a F/P arch mage- not sure what you mean by muling a mage but I'm fairly certain I haven't done that. I had the same on GMS along with my marksman both of which were 120+ by the time 4th job came out and well into 4th job by the time BB came out- please don't take my strong position on this as me being clueless or for not playing the game.

I already answered your other points so I'll leave it at that since you sort of glossed over my previous responses. I also don't really care to go point by point anymore- it's not that I don't think mages can't be improved (I actually said that- if you bothered to read my responses previously). I just don't think making them better bossers without really careful consideration to the rest of the games class balance is the right move.

 

Appealing to emotions or false dichotomies does not help arrive at actionable solutions — concrete opinions such as specific numbers or proposed changes are what actually help move everyone toward consensus.

Personally, I'm very supportive of — and even hoping to see as soon as possible — i/l and f/p being able to participate in some bossing run as well. Just as Pally at CWK runs or DK at AUF runs, I don't think the goal of adjusting i/l or f/p needs to be "viable in all bosses."

The types of changes I can think of — including ones I personally want as well as ones I've seen suggested — are roughly as follows:
(1) Directly and significantly buff i/l and f/p's attack skills so they can participate in bossing outright.
=>i/l and f/p already have large 15-mob AoE, so this would make mages overly versatile across all content.
(2) Use SkillBook 40/50/60/70, including Ice Demon / Big Bang / Chain Lightning (and f/p's three corresponding skills), to delay the point at which a bossing Mage is "complete," pushing it beyond the level range suitable for selling leech — while also restricting bossing Mages from having other skills.
=>SkillBook 40/50/60/70 would require direct changes to the Source code, and the market impact would also be a concern.
(3) Significantly buff attack skills while reducing AoE damage or adding cd to AoE.
=>This would directly and heavily impact players who have invested heavily in multi-target Mages, including for leech and farming purposes.
(4) Leave skills unchanged and instead modify the end-game boss environment — for example, introducing mechanics that require slow/seal (2nd/3rd job skills), or mobs that can only be handled with large-area freeze/poison.

Regarding single-target boss damage against matching elements: given that mages already have powerful large-AoE skills, their single-target damage should at minimum be slightly below warriors/archers, or equal under certain conditions — perhaps in the range of 80%–100%, which corresponds to roughly 55%–70% of a Corsair/NL.

(equipment and scrolls)
(1) perfected Elemental Staff 5~8 should be the end-game-weapon, I'm not clear on what impact equipment adjustments and +20 AUF would have on Mage damage output, and how that would affect the future environment.
(2) Whether to introduce a stronger 10% M.ATT scroll — the current +5 MA / +3 INT is significantly less efficient than +5 WA scrolls. Adding a +7 MA / +4 INT or +8 MA / +5 INT 10% scroll in the Pink Bean / Henesys Ruin update might be worth considering.

Finally, I'd also like to share a memory with my friends — at the time we averaged around level 170, and we managed to clear Zakum in 20 minutes with BM + MM + Pally + f/p. This goes to show that Mages aren't completely unfit for all bosses — it's just that in the current environment, Zakum is about the only boss where bringing 1 Mage is barely viable.

 

No one is going to make an attacker class if mages can do 70-80% of what attacker classes can do to bosses with much less funding.

why would i fund 1T mesos on my bowmaster/nl/ shad/bucc when i can do equal or more with just 100b on a mage? Can even spam aoe skills at ulu when im bored.

dont even need to wash for most bosses.

what I am confused with is why mages suddenly decide that they should be taking part in bosses all of a sudden. You don’t see archers or nightlords waking up one day and asking why they cant aoe blitz a map like mages can even though its very unfair to them. Why not? They spend easily 20-30x more for their gears than mages do.

if you want to do mobbing, make a mage
If you want to do bossing, make a bossing attacker.


I apologise if you are a mage and are offended by my post. I have to say it because no one else will or consider it from this pov. At least anyone reasonable or in their right mind would immediately sell off all their main character’s gear and switch to mage if they were given this. I would.

 

This is exactly an example of taking a standpoint without discussing data or concrete proposals:
(1) "why would i fund 1T mesos on my bowmaster/nl/shad/bucc when i can do equal or more with just 100b on a mage?" (related points under this item are not quoted separately)
=> Then discuss where the balance point should actually be, rather than setting up a strawman that may not even exist (1T NL dps = 100B Mage dps in boss output). What should a 10B NL/BM/DK compare to a 10B Mage dps(50% of a 10B Hero)? What about 100B (60% of a 100B Hero)? Or a 1T Mage (60% of a 1T Hero)? And given the existence of the damage cape, perhaps around 100B, AoE skills would gain 0 additional damage after gear upgrading.

(2) "Mage dont even need to wash for most bosses."
=> Given that the current bosses have relatively fewer DP(HT/VL/Auf), should Mage DPS be kept lower, around 60–70%? For players who want to challenge bosses on a Mage, perhaps 50% is already more than enough — but regardless, this is a balance point question, not a binary either-or question.

(3) "if you want to do mobbing, make a mage. If you want to do bossing, make a bossing attacker."
=> I remember a long time ago( the age of no LHC/no cwk), people would say things directly to me like "if you want to do bossing, play NL/dk — playing Pally/MM means u'll never get invited to any boss run." Yet clearly, past changes such as adding weak elements to bosses and reworking CR into a party buff were all adjustments aimed at increasing party diversity.

 

the proposal is there.

if you want to farm, make a mage
If you want to boss, make a bossing character.

this is a feedback thread. I dont have to provide data. I can, but I am in no way obliged to. I just have to provide my opinion as a feedback.

The GMs are the ones that are supposed to gather data and make changes if they want to. Im not a GM.

 

Not providing data is completely fine — that's your freedom of speech. And I equally have the freedom of speech to point out where your argument has flaws.

"MM/Pally shouldn't be in any boss run."
"Mages should be able to participate in bossing, with the same output as NL."

The same goes for all of the above — no data needed whatsoever, just emotion.

 

great so lets just wait

im sure the GMs will come round to this

 

no one is going to perfect a sky ski if a pinaka can do 70-80% of what a sky ski can do with much less funding

no one is going to buy a 2b+ nisrock when a +5 60% scrolled kandiva can do 70-80% of the DPS when using good attack potions (and currently has better DPS than an archmage besides)

do you see what the problem with this argument is now?

people are conveniently forgetting that prices are determined by player demand. if there really is that much demand for a top-tier farming class with 70% of the DPS of the worst attacker class, then prices of gear/books/scrolls will rise to match.

remember, if mages are buffed to be vaguely usable bossing characters, then the value of that character is equal to the current value of a farming-only mage (which is a known quantity) + the value of a vaguely usable separate bossing character, which includes gear and leech that you won't be spending meso on. i seriously doubt that this combined value exceeds the value of an ordinary attacker

and one other thing, in response to concerns that the meta will change. obviously the meta is going to shift when skills are rebalanced. I would seriously question the motives of anyone who broadly opposes any shift in the meta but still wants to participate in a thread called "skill changes and rebalancing"

 

you are absolutely right. To substantiate your point, I would recommend that all attacking classes have aoe skills that are 70-80% as good as genesis/meteor shower/blizzard.

im sure this would not affect the amount of mages on the server because mages are still the best at mobbing. And mages should not have an issue with it because attacking classes fund 10-20x more than what mages ever will need to.

lets also give every class flash jump but only 70-80% of the distance NL’s FJ provides. Its so unfair that only NL has such a mobility skill.

i can go on if you would like but this is getting ridiculous.

lastly, please read the title of the thread. Its called skill changes and balancing. Opposing “proposed” shifts in meta because its plainly stupid is part of “balancing”

i would seriously question the motives of anyone who talks about data and evidence when they cant even read the title of the thread correctly

 

The reason why nobody is asking for this is because bossing is the main multiplayer content on this server. People spend thousands of APRs on HP washing because they want to be able to participate in bosses. They spend hundreds of millions of mesos on leech because they want to skip the part of the game that isn't bossing. They create mages for the sole purpose of funding a different character that will fight bosses. It is very disingenuous to say that bossing and farming are on equal footing, because farming is the means to an end and bossing is that end. Saying that mages shouldn't be able to boss because they're good at farming is like saying that they don't need boyfriends because they have better toys than anyone else.

Is it really that hard to accept that it might be totally fine for mages to be 80% as good at bossing and 400% as good at farming as attacker classes? Maybe it's okay to give a chocolate bar to the skinny kid without giving another chocolate bar to the fat kid. Consider it.

Apologies, that statement was a (late) response to this comment which was not made by you

 

Exactly — pushing back against stupid, emotional, consequence-ignoring "useless objections" just requires pointing out their absurdity with logic.

The assumption that "once mages hit 70% of the weakest bossing class's DPS, everyone will sell their gear and mass-create mages" doesn't hold up. When a 100B attacker qualifies for 12-man VL, a 100B mage would only qualify for 18-man VL. You could just as well argue "players will immediately sell all their 12-man VL gear the moment mages can do 18-man" — which is equally absurd. In a multi-client server like this, people would likely prefer running a "10B mage + 90B attacker" combo even after any [bossing mage adjustments]. Moreover, even if mage farming earns 2–3x more than 12-man VL, most people wouldn't give up 12-man VL just to switch to mage farming — it's simply more fun.

Changes affecting the environment are expected and normal — here are some examples from servers I've played on:

• A server with "all class flash jump & teleport" ended up with every class being a pure DPS machine, with no teamwork whatsoever.
• Servers with an unbalanced bucc or sair meta ended up with 90%+ of players on one class, leaving everyone else unable to join final boss pt.

Negative consequences should absolutely be considered for any meaningful discussion — if mages are changed, RG boss would likely need adjusting too (such as adding elemental resistances). But that's very different from blocking changes out of spite, especially when you'd barely be affected yourself (except in your emotions) — the same attitude behind "Pally/MM should never have been in any boss," "just play the strongest class and stop asking for balance," and "mages shouldn't be allowed to farm AND qualify for 18-man on 100B gear."

 

I think your analogy above on nobody would buy a 2b weapon because a cheaper variant that does 80% of its dmg exists is not the best at describing the situation.

if anything, I would describe the situation as a perf sky ski and that of a perf pyrope spear.

A perf sky ski has higher wa (attacking class) but a perfect pyrope spear (mage classes if this change was implemented) has better att spd and has lots of accuracy (mobbing, teleport, little to no hp wash) The wa difference is wa 139 vs wa 136 (80% vs 100% in reference).

Like how people would opt for the pyrope spear over the sky ski, I can guarantee many people would consider changing to a maple pyrope spear if they dont mind the slight dps loss for other qol updates such as being able to go ulu farming on that character when they want a change in pace, or decide that they much rather just heal/ress ppl in VL than attack. These are all options people would willingly change class for if they are given best of both worlds. At least I would.

Right now 1 wa upgrade would cost me approximately 80b-100b if i buy it at s/b. I barely notice any difference in dps with 1 wa. What is stopping me and others from liquidating everything we have to a class that has 400% better mobbing, teleport, no hp wash, better aoe skills and much much much cheaper gear requirements apart from the dps loss (which can be compensated by funding more since mage dmg multipliers are different from attackers currently and would be increased if this change would be implemented).

Would VL runs mainly consist of just magicians? I mean we can safely down VL with 20-25mins to spare in 12man runs nowadays. We can definitely switch to mages and down it with 10-15mins left but no risk at all since we have like 12 ress (if bishops get 80% att of attackers)

i dont have anything against mages. I just look at feedback like this and consider the possible changes to the market and the game.

would the current leech meta be affected? People leech because they want to wash hp for their attacker classes. If lesser ppl are making attacker classes for the much better all rounded mage, would there be lesser leech to sell? When these new mages hit 120, would there be an overabundance of people selling leech with no buyers?

would ht runs change to all mages run? Having a 20% dps loss from a single target attacker like nl/bm but having
multiple targets (chain lightning) seem to be a better way to ht if you ask me.

would lvl 135 mages even do zakum/krex? Seems like selling leech can net better profits and exp whilst not even needing to buy everstone anymore.

please correct me if any part of what i said is inaccurate im just thinking out loud at this point.

 

Now THIS is a meaningful discussion!! Concrete numbers, logic, and actual proposals.

[edited] (Honestly, I think 40% is too low as well.)
(Percentages refer to single-target DPS of the weakest non-mage bossing class)
If 80% would cause players to mass-create mages, what about 70%? 60%? You could even argue that "50% of the same investment (e.g. 10B equip situation)" might already be more than enough for many casual players who genuinely just want to play i/l or f/p.

Also, there may be some confusion on one point — BS and i/l & f/p have different roles. Given BS's irreplaceable support position, its bossing capability should naturally be lower than i/l & f/p — perhaps 45%, 40%, or even less. But for BS, that would still be a pretty meaningful buff.

(Chain Lightning's damage decreases with each chain, dealing less than 20% of the first target's damage by the 6th mob.)
Considering that i/l is more of a half-multi-target class and f/p is more of a half-single-target class, it might make more sense to use i/l & DK and f/p & Pally as the reference points for balancing.

 

A wa difference of 3 probably isn't the balance target we're shooting for, but I accept that 80% might be a little bit high. Perhaps a better analogy that more closely captures the situation is Sky Ski vs. Purple Surfboard. Sky Ski is the single-target option while PSB is only seen as a grinding weapon. I do not know off the top of my head how much DPS you deal when using fury with PSB against a boss, but whatever percentage that is compared to Sky Ski + crusher DPS, that can be our baseline for proposed mage DPS (we already know that nobody is using PSB fury in zakum). I am pretty sure that's more than 40% of sky ski, and I'm also pretty sure it's higher than current mage DPS, but I don't know for sure (I didn't max polearm fury on my DK). I maxed spear fury, and that seems close to the 40% mark, more or less

and as a reminder to both you and myself, we're not talking 80% of the DPS of NL or bucc, we're talking like 80% of the DPS of something like hero.

 

This is from my imaginations ( for mages )

ST DPS on par with shad bucc pally bm with Poison, Lighting Elements
If that's too much, it's ok, just decrease the ST DPS by a bit. Be careful not to decrease it too much, or else no PT is gonna invite archmages for bossing.
Even with that DPS, archmages are gonna still be below attackers about what they can offer. Unlike archmages, Bowman can contribute SE, Warriors can contribute concentrated-3-target AOE, Shads and Buccs... no need to say. So how are they gonna be wanted in bossing if their ST DPS is just on par or a bit lower ? I think there are reasons why ! In earlier comments, I have posted about buffing skills like Ice,Fire Demon, Big Bang, even Meteor and Blizz. If that happens, archmages will have many features of mobbing ability ! That's how they are gonna be needed. And that's gonna represent their unique identity very well ( about mobbing ) isn't it ?

It's probably become like this.

FP good in VL, AUF, etc due to Poison element
IL good in VL, HT, etc due to Lightning element

FP, IL can still use Fire, Ice Demon on Bosses but the DPS is lower than Paralyze, CL. This is gonna make them unpreferred or unwanted in that element areas. It could be last resort to recruit them for that (when can't find enough attackers in pt).

In any other bossing areas where not weak against poison, lightning, fire, ice ( but not resistance ). It's still doable for them due to huge DPS buff butt they won't be invited in bossing pt unless it's a meme run.

 

You do realize there's a pretty massive difference between shad and BM st DPS right? Like, around NL vs shad gap. So... where in this range are we targeting? Lower end? Higher end?


The other end of balancing mages is not to make them good at single target, but to introduce new content that they're actually relevant in and are worth investing for (which to prevent massive income power creep would probably also require nerfing earlier farming spots/multi mage farm). This however would be wayyyyy more work and probably not worth implementing with how limited the development team is.

 

Lately I've been feeling that the ability to have a rational discussion matters more than anything — even if someone's argument isn't fully thought through and misses some important points, that's fine, as long as it's actual discussion and not just venting emotions.

First, as @Sylafia pointed out, DPS varies greatly between classes and can't simply be divided into single-target vs. multi-target. Let me first list the main bossing skills for both classes:

• Ice Demon / Fire Demon: 6-target small AoE
• Big Bang: 6-target, no element, high damage, close-range AoE
• Chain Lightning: 6-mob chain attack, -30% damage per chain, ~17% on the 6th mob
• Paralyze: single-target skill

When adjusting i/l & f/p's single-target DPS to around 40–60%, it's important to choose the right reference class — as mentioned earlier, I think i/l should reference Hero/DK, and f/p should reference Pally/BM.

That said, there are different approaches to adjustment. Since Ice Demon, Fire Demon, and Big Bang are skills that nobody uses, I'd personally like to see them revitalized — so I'd lean toward adjusting them similar to HH/Snipe/Aerial Strike, meaning a large burst of damage on a 10s/20s/30s cooldown. In other words, Chain Lightning serves as the primary skill, while Demon/Big Bang/Blizzard serve as cooldown-based skills to increase DPS. With all of the above maxed out, the peak single-target DPS after 4 skill filled would be roughly 40%/60% of a standard attacker
(※ under equivalent gear investment — otherwise someone will inevitably make the mistake of comparing 1T gear against 100B again).
(※Taking elemental factors into account, I prefer it to be approximately 60% against weak elements and 40% against neutral).
(※This kind of change only involves IMG modifications and shouldn't require any changes to the underlying code(?)).

As for the HP-washing issue, one possible approach is to look at MP consumption — since mages genuinely don't need heavy HP-washing, making the skills' MP-cost up(like 1000/2000mp per skill) would force players to seriously consider MP-washing up to 30k and whether Magic Guard can cover 80% of damage, while also requiring mages to think carefully about when to use Infinity during bossing.

Finally, I'd like to share my personal imagination on boss runs:
(1) Zakum: During the 8-hands phase, AoE essentially makes mages the strongest attacker (I still remember seeing my f/p friend who had been away for over a year dealing 199,999 × 2 + ~130k × 6). Even if main body DPS is only 40–50% of a Hero's (and possibly only around 30%~35% at Lv150 under my proposed changes), f/p could still worth as a zak member.
(2) HT main body: Use Blizzard as the primary damage source during the first phase, then switch to Chain Lightning / Big Bang once the legs and tail are down.

 

i only want to point out your point on the 1T vs 100b gear investment.

you call it a mistake but its really not. i can assure you that the amount to fund a mage to its maximum potential is nowhere near what it takes to fund an attacker class to its maximum potential.

the 100b vs 1T was an analogy but it fits the description well.

apart from untradeables such as auf, I do not see how the rest of a mage’s gear, if min maxed would reach more than 100b-200b. Are perf tma eps worth that much? do enlighten me because a perf attacker ep clean can cost from 10b to 35b.

For discussion purposes, If I had 1T in b coins right now, I think I would be able to minmax a mage and have perfect gears for everything and would have more than 700-800b leftover.

Even with 1T I wouldnt be able to say the same for an attacker class. This is why I compared 1T to 100b in that scenario. I wouldn’t call it a mistake simply because you disagreed with it.


A 25 bwg would cost between 170-200b depending on when you buy it and it is not even considered end game. I would consider a glove like a 27-28bwg as “i have finished the game” status. I have a 25 bwg and my dmg sucks. A mage just has to buy a perf clean fkc and 10% ws gfma.


So forgive me and everyone else here who thinks that mages dont deserve to have 70-80% dps of an attacker class because they “have no end game goal”. We just think that no one would make an attacker anymore if mages were given that boost.

 

Hello Sylafia

I consider classes like shad bucc pally dk bm as the same DPS-range group, even though shad DPS > bm DPS, I don't think it differs that much. I got information that there's a bm that can finish Krex right eye in around 12.00 mins. In Krex DPS comparison thread, Shad outperforms BM alot, I think it's just that BM isn't as strong as that Shad.

Lower end ? or Higher end ?
Since I put many classes on that statement, It should be averagely, I am not sure about where to put Mages DPS on too, I didn't state it rigorously.

If we don't make them at least having comparable ST DPS as attackers, it's gonna be hard for them to join in any Bossing pt. Apart from Bossing, there are hardly any other content mages can be introduced for besides Selling Leech and Mages Farming which they are already capable of and are arguably considered detrimental to the game.

I have another idea too, it just came to my mind, We can make Fire Demon, Ice Demon mage's best DPS skill, just letting Paralyze, CL a little bit more ST DPS than those skills, but Fire,Ice Demon's DPS don't get shared when it comes to many targets, this probably make those skills the best 6 targets AOE in the game.