In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Hello Sylafia

I use this reply as a reference.

And moreover, using Krex DPS as a reference, comparing Donn6e and tazan.

12:02 | Shad by Donn6e | 346,260 DPS | [8050 ~ 14189]
12:42 | BM by tazan | 328,084 DPS | [9529 ~ 11663]

By calculation, we will get that Donn6e does around 5.54% more DPS than tazan

 

I did not borrow any gears. 80 cgsb includes my belt so 70+ cgs and perf gears (OA/rings/face/high dex eye)


Krex dps test is solely based on the class’ raw dps output and in reality its much different as explained above. Repositioning etc

the reason I said shad had 3x-4x the dps of BMs in ht is because for most of the horntail run, shads are able to hit 3-4 targets and not having to reposition as much as BMs do.

It may not exactly show in timing but thats not dps comparison anymore, thats due to the nature of the boss (single target vs multiple targets)

if you take 3 shads for a ht run and separately take 3 bms for a ht run its not too far fetched to say shads will down it 3x faster than the bm run.

^ the above scenario is assuming no sed is needed, which again BMs are not able to do while shads are.

Hope this clarifies its important to decide what % you mean when you want a boost in mage dps because having 70% of a shad/nl dps would mean mages would outdps a bm easily.

most bishops I encounter in parties do not use any magic att potions. Have you considered this as well? It seems that all the examples of attackers being listed are examples of them using apple/VL pots. Are mages really that behind in dps? Or are they just not using magic att potions whilst comparing to attackers that are fully buffed and appled?

 

Regardless of whether you want to end the discussion, I'll keep pointing out the flaws in your logic — this isn't about challenging your position, as I've said before, positions have no right or wrong, but logic does.

I won't claim every number I've cited is perfect, but from everything I've seen so far, you've consistently been nitpicking from various minor angles to oppose without ever seriously constructing your main argument — a complete chain of reasoning for "how bossing mage would actually break the game environment" — to support your position.

(1) I think at minimum some basic fact-checking should be done before joining the discussion, rather than going purely on emotion and gut feeling. 18 SCG 9B + 15 BFC 11B + 12 VL boots 10B => 45 CGS = 30B, far below the 50B figure you cited. And of course factoring in a weapon — add a 20B 118KC — and bucc already meets the 12-man standard.

(2) You clearly have a misunderstanding of market economics — I'd recommend reading a first-year university economics textbook; there are plenty of free courses online. A niche market means that even when both supply and demand are low, prices can still be surprisingly high (think collectible value).

(3) You clearly have a significant misunderstanding of how this server operates. Most players looking to make money — including those who stick to 1-client — will have a BS selling leech while raising a separate attacker. So your claim that "mages are easier to fund than attackers" is fundamentally flawed.

(4) Would a 50B mage out-DPS a 50B attacker in bossing? After all this discussion, you clearly still haven't understood the point since my very first comment. Right now, a 50B mage's boss DPS is already far below an attacker's. The 40–70% figure means that using a 50B Hero/Pally as the baseline, a 50B mage's single-target DPS would be set to approximately 40–70% of a 50B Hero/Pally's. Feel free to review your own logic: "After adjusting a 50B mage to 40–70% of a 50B Hero/Pally, the 50B mage's output would be far greater than a 50B Hero/Pally's."

(5) A conclusion built on faulty understanding and faulty logic has no reference value.

(6) Before asking me to revisit the 50B claim, I'd suggest first genuinely working through other people's logic, rather than opposing for the sake of opposing — especially while claiming you're not doing exactly that.

 

For the record my krex dps thread submission (~1h for >1600 tma bishop) did include cheese + echo. Part of the issue is that MA is worth less than WA, making cheese only roughly equivalent to an apple with no proper VL pot/naricain substitute for mages.

 

I have a few questions about mages I'd like to ask:

(1) Is it difficult to effectively buff mages due to the M.ATT 1999 cap?
(2) Is the DPS impact of MA/INT far less than WA, or just slightly less?
(3) After removing the M.ATT cape, would mages need a new MA potion for bossing, or would existing ones suffice? (Some safeguards may be needed to avoid affecting the leech market, such as making it Lv190+ to get from npc and untradeable.)

 

Remove the cap, ez.

A perfect answer can't be given for this since damage scales quadratically with TMA instead of linearly. In general though, I estimate it's around half as effective for buffing me?

Let me do the actual math:

Apple on my shad brings me from 130dagg+35khanj+51cgs+8belt+1vday=225 wa to 325 wa which is ~50% more dps (or, if you go by range, 10746 range to 15522 range).

A 1300 tma bish with 1000 int will go from 56771 -> 73280 min dmg, which is a 29% buff

I'm 1731 tma with 1425 int (off echo), and it will bring me from 92568 -> 113312 min dmg, which is a 22.4% buff

So I guess it's around 1/4 as effective

Probably, unless mage damage scaling for 4th job skills gets changed, which it might need to be. It can be tradable as long as it's expensive enough that it's not profitable to use it to sell leech, which is why very few mages tend to really use cheese to sell leech (and if mages became popular, cheese price would very much spike which would easily price leechers out)

 

okay you are the best, you understand the market more than I do. You clearly merch better than I do. Hope everything works out for you.


@Evan i see now why you stopped. Well played.

 

Are we ready to be productive now?

I think it does. However, we actually don't have to use the altered scaling for all mage skills. There is actually precedent in Lucky Seven/Triple Throw having their own custom damage formulas, so we can create a new formula for Paralyze/Chain Lightning/IceFire Demon/Big Bang that scales more heavily with increased TMA, while changing nothing about Genesis/Meteor/Blizzard or the 1st-3rd job skills.

Maybe something like X + (Y/(Z - TMA)) where X = whatever the formula is now, and Z is the highest theoretical TMA possible plus some constant value, which would cause DPS to skyrocket once you start reaching the level of TMA that requires perfect auf and insane shoe chaos rolls

 

As I've consistently emphasized — argue with logic, set aside emotion. If you look carefully at my posts, even my own statements about mages have often lacked precision or glossed over important details.
But this only calls for more fine-tuned adjustments to my proposal — not a complete rejection of it.

When someone is unable to engage in rational discussion and instead tries to drive policy through emotional pressure, or substitutes the number of people who agree with them for actual logical reasoning — that kind of behavior is an ad populum fallacy: the idea that "more people agreeing with me" is a substitute for a sound argument.

An argument that consistently substitutes emotion and headcount for logic speaks for itself. Even bringing in another person who commits the same ad populum fallacy does nothing to advance the proposed changes.

If the VL belt had been discussed more carefully at the time, and the orb had been limited to only +1 MA on the VL belt, a perfected mage VL belt would cap at just 25 TMA (8 INT + 1 MA, with 4 CS each adding 4 TMA) — which would have had a much smaller impact on the perfected Dojo belt (20 INT).

 

That seems like a pretty powerful formula with ridiculous scaling at the end, I'd probably just use tma formula shifted and multiplied ( instead of DMG(tma) use 67*DMG(tma - 420) ). Would need some fallback if tma is lower or near the shift point, but overall should help a lot. Maybe the multiplier and shift amount can increase as skill levels go up even, idk.