In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

I believe that the Paladin's "Blast" skill should offer a greater advantage in single-target damage compared to the other two warrior-type classes.
① Single-target attack: 580% × 1 hit
→ Single-target attack: 300～400% × 2 hits
Alternatively:
② Blast Lv. 30 = Mastery 30%+
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Option ① makes it less likely for damage to be capped (mitigated) and allows for greater benefit from Skill Effects (SE).
Option ② provides more consistent damage output by raising the minimum damage threshold.

 

maybe demo can be used once on macro be nice so less afk game with 3 demo's whould be a nice nerf
so u dont kill the barrage demo macro

 

A week into the Bucc nerf, I’ve been testing it across several bosses. Based on my own runs so far, the practical impact feels much higher than the announced 2–3% DPS loss.

For consistency, I maintained the same setup for all runs: Bucc + Pally + NL as attackers.

Disclaimer: PLEASE READ

• This is a very rough esetimate, and I am open to being corrected if I made any mistakes. If anyone has questions, feedback, or a better way to estimate this, please feel free to reach out to me in-game or forum DM so we don’t turn this into a lengthy discussion here.
• This is mainly from my solo multi-client POV, so the effect is definitely amplified compared to normal party play. However, since my setup remained the same and the main changed variable is Bucc, I think it can still be used as a rough comparison.
• Please do not take this as a definitive conclusion for all Bucc players or all setups. I will not be responsible for how this is interpreted or used by others. If you are unsure, please do your own testing in the content you actually run before making any decision.

Spoiler: Boss timing and calculations

Krex:
Pre-nerf: under 30 mins
Post-nerf: around 33 mins
Previously, I could finish within one Gizer. Now, I cannot.
Note: Fully Barr+DS during ST downtime

Verga / Nibergen:
Pre-nerf: under 20 mins
Post-nerf: around 22 mins
Previously, I could finish within one Peppermint. Now, I cannot.
Note: Fully Barr+DS during ST downtime

Dunas v2:
Pre-nerf: around 22 mins
Post-nerf: around 25 mins
Previously, I could finish within one card duration. Now, I am cutting it extremely close.
Note: Full DS on ship and Barr+DS during ST downtime.

Auf:
Pre-nerf: around 90 mins
Post-nerf: 105+ mins
Note: Fully Barr+DS during ST downtime

Formula used:
DPS drop = 1 - (old clear time / new clear time)

Krex:
1 - (30 / 33) = 9.1% overall drop

Verga / Nibergen:
1 - (20 / 22) = 9.1% overall drop

Dunas v2:
1 - (22 / 25) = 12.0% overall drop

Auf:
1 - (90 / 105) = 14.3% overall drop

From the timing alone, the overall performance drop is roughly around 9–14%, depending on the content.

Since this is a 3-attacker setup, the actual loss linked to Bucc is likely higher than the overall party drop. Assuming Bucc contributed roughly 1/3 of the total damage/value before the nerf, the estimated loss attributed to the Bucc change would be:

Krex / Verga / Nibergen:
9.1% / 33.3% = ~27%

Dunas v2:
12.0% / 33.3% = ~36%

Auf:
14.3% / 33.3% = ~43%

If we roughly attribute the overall clear-time loss to the Bucc change in a 3-attacker setup, the estimated Bucc-related effective loss will be around 27–43% depending on content.

Of course, I am NOT claiming these are exact Bucc DPS losses. Damage is not perfectly split between attackers, and each boss has different amounts of repositioning, utility, downtime, and mob control. But based on my runs, the practical impact is clearly much higher than a simple 2–3% loss. Even in simpler bosses, the clear times still show a noticeable drop. In content like Auf, the loss becomes even more obvious because it is not just about raw DPS. ST downtime also affects Demo iframe access, Snatch access, repositioning, pinning, mob handling, and overall run flow.

As for RG:

a week into the nerf;


So the mobbing loss I am seeing so far is around 15%. More runs are definitely needed, but the drop is already noticeable.

and

If Phase 2 is only heading in this direction without properly fixing off-ST gameplay, then frankly, Bucc has effectively been killed for many players. Its definitely still playable, but being “playable” is not the same as being worth investing in or enjoyable to main anymore.
If the goal is to make Bucc more active and less macro-based, I can understand that direction. But right now, the off-ST state does not feel rewarding or reliable enough to justify the amount of utility and smoothness lost during the downtime.

For fellow Bucc players, my honest recommendation is to stop investing further into the class for now and consider sidelining it until Phase 2 is clearer. If what you enjoyed was the post-2019 Bucc identity then its time to either adapt or move on.

 

@Tim

 

Yeah in summary with beholder, the way the skill is cast doesn't make the change in accuracy reliable to the point that if you need 40 acc you still need to basket

 

If you want to make them similar, then regular Transformation would cost 1 Magic Rock and Super Transformation would not. You may notice that all the 3rd job summons (Silver Hawk, Golden Eagle, Summon Dragon, Shadow Partner) cost a rock, but the 4th job summons (Phoenix, Frostprey, Ifrit, Elquines, Bahamut) don't cost a rock. In the current system, Super Transformation is the only 4th job skill that costs a rock to cast.

 

If you have difficulty implementing it as a single skill, would it be easier to split it into two skills that max at 15 each? A "rope snatch" and "snatch" skill, and convert the snatch 20/30 books into rope snatch/real snatch 15 books with initial max lv of 5.
... although IDK about the dev side and if that's easier or not, but worth considering if your idea is a bit too hard.

I'm going to be honest, I doubt this will be an issue. We already have damage range which elitists can use, and random HT smegas don't usually require it. I don't see this significantly changing things, as long as there's not an in-boss run dpm command, which I could very easily see creating tons of blacklist drama.

4th job summons don't take a rock. I wouldn't really mind them being added because I don't use bahamut much (it provides too much visual clutter in VL, as it displays above characters instead of behind), but as-is it's currently not required.

 

I think we've already reached the limit of what we can get away with in terms of sneaky BM nerfs. People are going to start getting suspicious

 

We got "We hear your concerns" 'd

 

Okie imma talk a bit deeper regarding arrowbomb formula and Bowmaster AoE (i wont include marksman) hope @Tim can read this (u can skip to the solution if ur lazy to read)

~Trivia/why im making this post~

First of all i created my bm 3 years ago and it was my 2nd charac, (my bs was my first charac) and even with a bs i never leeched my bm, on my first royals experience my bm was basically an ironman BM grinding in notpopular places and sometimes classic PQs (ludipq,PPQ,etc) so i enjoyed/tested all the AoE skills in many scenarios/mobs



1.- Bowmaster Identity:



I consider Arrow bomb like an important part of bowmaster's identity, beside with Hurricane, both are the pure essence of Bowmaster, we are a physical damage class not an elemental one like pallys or mages.

Sharp Eyes, Arrow rain and Inferno, basically those are a copy/paste of marksman (those skills are still "archer's" identity tho), and if u just nerf (because its a nerf, not a "fix") u are killing Bowmaster Identity(the updates should be to keep the identity of the class), the special formula of this skill isnt a coincidence/bug, this formula was to make bowmasters use this skill on 3rd job and even in lategame.


2.- Arrow bomb Formula


After this change it came a problem, less dps on low lvls 30~80 (or prob lvl90, until u max arrow rain or inferno) also now with this new formula u cannot simply add more % to arrow bomb in the future updates bcz it will be strong for new players. The ''special'' formula was OKAY, not OP not even DECENT, it was OKAY.


3.- My Bowmaster PoV


As a Bowmaster player i used to use those 3 Skills in all my training escenarios first burn with Inferno then arrow bomb, or if they were high mov speed mobs, Inferno them then Arrow rain, it was a versatile and fun experience, now with the new update new players will be doomed bcz they only will use inferno and arrow rain (arrow rain can be op but u waste alot of pots and bms are a RANGED class with LOWHP,) also u cant use inferno in all the escenarios some mobs has fire resistance or fire inmune and u cant burn them, so u will need an extra tool.


Those 3 AoE Skills from BM has their Pros and Cons no one its ''perfect''.
Im a classic player that also did MANY Reuels to hit 30k and even with many 200characs and 30khp on my main i still prefer to run with friends, content like HT(4~5man), AUF with a partner or trio,GPQ and other content with friends.
So i can say with good reason we need Arrow bomb in EARLY, MID and LATEGAME!


Here are some examples of the utility of arrowbomb on bosses:


Zakum

When u run with a Ranged pty Arrow bomb can be so cool to cover ya creammates (u CAN'T use inferno bcz all the mobs from zk are element inmune, and arrow rain has poor vertical/horizontal range, so AR dont reach to the mobs) so arrow bomb its the solution

Horntail

when im running in a ranged party NLs needs to be covered so u can use arrow bomb to stun then kill them, i dont use inferno on HT bcz u cant ''burn'' wyverns and also some of them has fire Resistance, so my options there are arrow bomb and arrow rain to cover my team.

Auf Haven(CoreBlaze)

Its fun how i read many buccs now struggling with mobs on coreblaze meanwhile bowmaster can be a good solution with arrowbomb as main att to cover, i never got a trouble in any part of Auf, those 3 bosses stages are super chill if u have a Bowmaster MAIN on ur team c;



~ Simple Solution ~



Revert Arrow Bomb Formula
Add 20% to Arrow Rain and Inferno



we dont need anymore just change this and then we can focus on new skills/balance incoming for archers we're single target DPS'ers !

After this NEW BUFFS:

Arrow bomb :

130%*2=260% (Without SE *40% chance*)
130%*3.4= 442% (With SE *55% chance*)


Arrow Rain :

180%+100% = 280% (Without SE *40% chance*)
180%+100%+140% = 420% (With SE *55% chance*)


Inferno :

170%+100% = 270% (Without SE *40% chance*)
170%+100%+140%= 410% (With SE *55% chance*)



DO NOT FORGET that the final damage (442%AB, 420%AR 410% Inf)IS NOT CONCLUSIVE, still arrow bomb BASE damage its low and with 40%crit as base (55%withSE) i think this DMG% buff of those 3 skills will be well balanced.

I also know after this buff our AoE DPS still will be under Sairs,NLs and MMs AoE DMG but that isnt our strength and i dont mind, i just want okay/decent dmg.

Also DONT FORGET skills like arrow rain are DIFERENT, if u compare with others AoE Skills from Ranged class like NL or Sairs that u ''PUNCH'' and u need to run away(making almost impossible to do dps if the mobs that has high mov speed) so doesnt make sense give a HUGE % BUFF to a skill that has special treatment.

After this buff i suggested, new players can enjoy a smoother, more progressive experience without leaving their 2nd-job skills behind and late game bowmasters can have an extra tool to do AoE DMG/Utility

REMARKS:

1.- as i said ill just comment about Bowmaster AoE, i know we still need balance in other areas, but theres pro BM's around that can give excelent ideas c;

2.- i saw some ppl trying to compare BM AoE DPS with Shad AoE DPS, that doesnt make sense, try to keep in mind we're Ranged Class and if u want to compare our DPS to suggest new ideas, try to use Ranged ones like: NL, MM, Sair.

 

Tim forgot that arrow bomb stuns so it was always going to be more useful than shitty fire arrow and rain. Hope hunters and snipers are doing ok.

 

The tool/data that is even more straightforward to use for elitism than a test dummy is simply range checking, and that has not been a problem in Royals. People are more concerned about muling and multi-attacking these days than how much dps or range a player can offer.
The only common places I see people doing range checks are in sub-12-man VL runs. Even though I hardly see the necessity for it, it makes sense that hosts want to ensure the run goes smoothly. And you can hardly call it toxic for someone to try to avoid failing a 1-hr time-limited boss run with 12 players in it.
If players wanted to be elitist or toxic in a regular Zak/HT runs, they would already be doing it using range checks.

You mentioned a shortage of development and testing resources in your comment. Why not let the community help you out? I think the posts and discussions over the past few weeks have already shown that there are passionate, evidence-driven players eager to help you with the balancing process. They might think of creative ideas, tests, or scenarios that you haven't considered before, but they currently lack the tools required to test out those theories and support them.

Here are the advantages a test dummy feature can offer to the testing community that we didn't have before:
1) Fast and easy test setup. Currently, if we want to test any skill dps, we'd have to set up a krex run, potentially recruit some help to kill the left eye, and then go into the actual test. The result is not even accurate due to its def/heal/knockbacks. All that effort goes toward a result that is only roughly close to reality. Not to mention it's limited to 2 times a day.
2) Reliable multi-target testing. We currently do not have a good multi-target damage meter. Multi-target skills with ordinal decay/enhancement systems such as Piercing Arrow, Chain Lightning, and Energy Orb, are not as simple as "let's test it on 1 target and multiply it by the theoretical target counts." Skill hitbox spacing is also a huge factor when it comes to multi-targeting. They require a proper target setup to get correct dps values.
3) Game engine vs. theory validation. A test dummy allows us to compare theoretical dps against how the game engine actually works. It's known that the game engine can be buggy and not work as intended. The most notable example is Assassinate, which has a bugged interaction with SE that reduces its dps output rather than boosting it. This is not something easily discovered without the ability to compare theoretical calculations to in-game dps.
4) Accurate line-to-line inspections. Sometimes, the best first step to troubleshoot a skill dps problem before diving into the codebase is to check whether the damage line falls within the reasonable values or not (Spoilers: Assassinate lines don't). Krex's def affecting the results is a pure annoyance, adding another layer of complexity to testing that could and should be simple.

Please reconsider adding a test dummy feature. It could end up being far more helpful than damaging to the game than you expect.

 

I used to be a OSMS Bowmaster main in a single client environment(and chased by NLs… lol). Even though I haven’t touch bowmaster for so many years, when I finally get to play my new BM here in royals days ago, memory hits hards because my muscle memory of BM mobbing just ends up “Cast dragon breathe to push away, throw a inferno, then arrow bomb till it’s better to just hurricane.”

We use our tools accordingly and it’s not just because “on formula arrow bomb’s dps is just better” but also arrow bomb works extremely well on mob control. We still have to use it despite it get nerfed which is probably the most tragic part. It feels even worse due to the fact Avenger on NL got buffed 20% damage. We could enjoy pure happiness on skills remain unchanged + the new arrow buff but not with the nerf and contrast. As mentioned above by Fearless BM's mobbing skill is not overpowered at all, it's just OK and we don't always get crit hits.

 

and Barrage+Barrage+Barrage?

 

get KB once and Barrage is useless. Bucc has no avoid and only 10% stance (lol) during bubble to circumvent this meanwhile Demo has good range and it's actually a good candidate for macro exclusion.

I feel like macro exclusion would be a fair nerf for I-frame skills. you can always just hold your Demo and Ass key.

 

Speaking of, why do Archer 3rd job summons stun mobs but not their 4th job ones (or mage summons at all)?

Also, fun fact: Archer summons have a wider attack range than mage ones, making them better stopper farmers!

 

The 4th job summons stunned me when I saw their dmg output

 

I played my characters in the past few days and here's my feedback.
First of, the whole NX discount is defeating its own goal. You changed the game which makes the player change their build, you should give them a free change, not a discount. Discount allow them (and players whose gameplay did not change) to stockpile those resets to sell again later, if you just reset all the skill points, you allow them for 1 time change the build. I hope for the next phases you do it this way.
DK change is almost unnoticed if I don't use potions. Dragon Blood takes the spot of beholder's buff with slightly higher damage, for solo content like RG doesn't makes a big change, for party, I feel like this is a big blow for DKs as HB isn't wanted, the damage buff for it from Dragon's Blood is minor, and the heroes got Rage - a massive party buff, and it stacks with Enrage which makes them easier, stronger and more appealing for parties than DKs. My suggestion, bring back the damage buff to the beholder (as the accuracy buff is inconsistent so it's practically useless), allow it to stack on top of Dragon Blood and attack potions.
Bucc is dead. I used to do papulatus from the top platform to dodge dispells, and Dunas v1 by standing on the lower platform and spam the super transformation's range attack, and they both feel terrible now. You either reposition all the time, or eat the dispells, I'm also massively weaker, and it's just not a fun class anymore.
Shadower - I didn't feel any change (I mostly play solo content, so I never used the SS tactics in HT).
BM - solid damage buff, I think we can have concentrate's buff stack with pots (similarly to the warriors' weapon damage buffs). Soul arrow can be changed to have some effect like Shadow Stars where you consume less arrows for a period of time (you pay something like 2k arrows, shoot freely for 5 minutes or so), if you don't have arrows available, you shoot the default +0 arrows it used to have.
Corsair - feels the same, I don't feel like the avoidability change made much difference. If you didn't tell me it was changed I wouldn't guess it did.

All in all, I'm not happy with the changes. I feel like things that shouldn't have gotten buffed received buffs, and things that should have been nerfed, got nerfed in the wrong way.
Game is all about tradeoffs, some things are good here, some things are lacking there. For example, if a meta emerged of shadowers hunting HT with SS, let it... The shadowers have a few places where they outshine everything else, let them have fun with it. NLs used to be the strongest and easiest class in the game ONLY if they played with SE, and that's fine. You shouldn't nerf SE because a party of 4NLs 1 SE 1 Bishop is very very strong against a single target. It's all about choosing the right class for the right content. I love doing CWKPQ with my DK, I own the 3 bosses in the lower lane easily, that's what DK is good for, nerfing his place where it shines isn't a good direction. So the nerf for the shadower (even though I didn't experience it) wasn't a great choice, even though the players found a way to "break" one piece of content in the game. They find it fun that they "beat" the game, let them have fun, if other players want to play the content differently with other characters that's also going to happen.
Bucc nerfs, was needed, the direction is wrong, because now there is absolutely no place where they shine, damage got reduced by a lot, and no content where they are good at. I think reverting them to where they were, and a small damage nerf would be fine.
Buffing the SE isn't the direction. People didn't play SE because they are boring, not because they are weak, and even with the damage buff they are still boring. Just face it, we have a boring class. Do you want to make it less boring? allow it to move and shoot jump and shoot so it's not a stand in 1 place and hold 1 button class. SE is a class where u would stand in one place, hold 1 button, and every 5 minutes SE for the party, NLs are kind of the same, but they are stronger and have more satisfying gameplay (mobility and things).
DK Heroes have the tradeoff. DKs should be stronger when played optimally, because it's harder and riskier. It needs to be higher risk => higher reward tradeoff, but because we have HP wash, and end game bosses are hard to zerk this update makes DKs even less desirable. A good change would be making HB immune to dispell, so maybe for newer players running content with DK would feel somewhat rewarding, assuming he would deal better damage than a hero on optimal play.
Lastly, I will reiterate on the SE, we're trying to make it less weak, but power creep is a thing. I think that lowering the quiver's ATT by a few points, and let it have it by stacking concentrate on top of potions, and I don't want to see a support class (SE) becoming a super dominant damage dealer, as I said, it's a game of tradeoffs, and SEs suppose to be weaker, because they amplify everyone else in the party.

 

Some takes for Archers : ( emphasizing on what I haven't talked here yet )

General :

SE :

It seems like SE isn't as much wanted as SI, probably bc it's dmg buff is not noticeable enough ?
So we might increase SE dmg buff to classes that are not NL or Archer, for example if it's around 6% we then might increase it to 8%.
The way of increasing it I think I like to increase it by increasing extra crit-rate from SE, this is to make it more noticeable!

Birds :

Increase its dmg to be 2 - 3 times as much isn't too much.

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For Marksman :

Snipe :

Make it 19x k initially (the same) but it starts to get over 195x k, when one's range is high enough snipe's dmg starts to exceed 200k.
The Snipe's dmg probably should be at least 2x of a strafe, so when Strafe's dmg is around 100k, snipe's dmg will be around 200k, when Strafe's dmg is around 150k, snipe's dmg will be around 300k.

Make Snipe always 1 shot monster regardless of monster's hp, for example, in RG when monster's hp is around 400k, Snipe will still 1 shot it. This excludes boss and boss-like mobs.

Optionally, if above aren't enough, can make Snipe do some negative effect on boss, mini stun for example but with a certain success rate.

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For Bowmaster :

Concentrate :

Make it stackable with pots.

Inspiration : Wind Ranger form other game

Make it grants insane "avoidability" like 80-99% or 100% avoid rate.
Make it grants insane movement speed like 250 - 350 movement speed.
Make it grants extra crit rate.

With that overwhelming power, we need to assign skill's duration and adjust its cooldown properly. Maybe 1-2 mins every 10 mins ?

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