I really hope that this rule can be changed to allow for human error. With this rule in its current state it deems that all types of automatic behaviour will result in a ban which i believe is unfair. If a person is able to appeal it with evidence that proves that they weren't intentionally botting, (e.g. Falling asleep on your keyboard and happening to hold down a button). There should be some sort of leniency. Can the rules for warranting a ban for botting also be clarified here as well?
The rule for warranting a ban for botting is simple. If it appears you are performing an action automatically (using a bot), and you do not respond to a GM's message asking if you are there, it is automatically assumed you are using a bot as there is literally no other way to determine if you are a bot or human at that point.
I believe the check that is in place to prove you aren't botting is to reply to a GM when they speak to you. But what i'm trying to say is that botting to gain an advantage, (casting skills buff/kill mobs for exp, level your pet closeness through automated chat commands) is different to the form of "botting" where there is no form of advantage (e.g. Casting attacking skills in town as well). There is already the system where you stand in the same position and after using attack skill for 100 times your character will not perform any more attack animations, or in the case if a cleric after using 100 heals, the heal would do no damage but appear to do damage. With the current rule in place if you were to perform these actions in towns or any place that does not provide some sort of progress to your character it warrants a ban.
This is the problem in most cases. It's very hard to provide evidence of that sort much like people claiming their brother was trying out hacks and it wasn't the person themselves. We decided to enforce this rule in a strict matter because we believe that there would be an increasing amount of excuses for people to 'appear' to be botting if we added in leniency for human error. Spoiler: Personal thoughts You could argue that falling asleep on your keyboard and 'botting' in a place that's not beneficial for your character in any way shouldn't be considered botting at all but if you play to the extend of falling asleep you might want to reconsider your play schedule. I know most people ignore the 1,2,3 and beyond -hour in-game warnings to take a break but playing until you fall asleep instead of logging off and going to bed is probably not healthy in the long run. You should be able to avoid falling asleep on your keyboard which should avoid you getting banned for botting.
From my experience, it's normal for a lot of players to play deep into the night (so they get very tired, which can lead to human error - sh0ok, char, pureheroin, etc.). In my opinion this is due to a international server, where everyone is in different timezones, so the incentive to stay up and play with friends in other timezones (or attend horntail runs at late night, because there is none during your normal timezones) is very high. These events can be distinguished by: In my opinion This don't solve the problem. It's like saying smoking kills you, so you shouldn't smoke, but people still will still smoke, even though it's unhealthy for them. It is very easy to argue that falling asleep on your keyboard in town (sh0ok) is not beneficial for your character, and you EVEN hit the 100 attack limit, so your character is just in an altered stance. Playing to the extent of falling asleep is honestly the players decision, and really isn't a comparable counter argument, there are plenty of people who have grinded 30-40 hours without falling asleep.
If I understood you correctly, the same can be said about hacking. If a player is fly hacking or speed hacking or something similar in FM; should they be left unbanned? It's not really giving them an advantage is any way, but they're still obviously hacking.
By fly hacking or speed hacking they are using 3rd party programs which is against the ToS. And accidentally falling asleep on your keyboard is very different from intentionally downloading hacks to fly in the FM.
Here's the thing, if your character is doing it in town, couldn't that imply that they were botting elsewhere? You say you fell asleep during HT and got warped to town after correct? Doesn't that mean you continued to attack while in the HT until it was over? This is still botting and, if true, you did benefit from it, just not at the time you were caught.
@Rob if you are talking about Sh0ok? who hasn't posted in this thread. He would have been stuck at preheads and unable to move on further into horntail. So he would of had the same advantage, of just falling asleep on the spot without attacking. And if he really did want an advantage he wouldn't be using dragon's breath.
I do not wish to bring in other cases into this feedback thread. I would just like there to be a change to allow people who unintentionally "bot" without gaining any advantage to be protected. If you're botting to gain an advantage than by all means that is bannable. I do not think that if this rule was changed to allow unintentional "botting". Botters will rise up and begin to bot in an environment where they don't gain anything from it.
Those are just my personal thoughts which aren't intended as a counter argument for anything. Like I mentioned players often ignore the warning to take a rest and they are free to choose to play until they fall asleep, however they should also be aware of the consequences of appearing to be botting if they do fall asleep on their keyboard while preforming actions. Any amount of leniency usually gets the ball rolling towards more, next thing you know there are people claiming they 'move around in their sleep' so they started pressing other keys as well. It's up to the player to prove that they are not botting, not the responsibility of a GM to find out by doing all sorts of detective work on what might have happened that lead up to that situation. What we often do is talk to the player and if they don't respond within 5 minutes while they do preform actions they are considered botting.
It's a persons own decision to smoke; or play late into the night. Where I live it's illegal to smoke within a certain distance of public entrances to buildings, because of second hand smoke. This law doesn't apply to people who don't smoke, but people who do could violate the law by simply walking down the street smoking. Just like walking down the street while smoking could put you in violation of a law, falling asleep on your keyboard could make you violate the botting policy. It's a persons choice to smoke, or play late into the night, the staff have nothing to do with that.
Whoops, same situation and S in the forum name confused me. But Shook said he was at HT when he fell asleep and ended up in town, probably because the run had ended. As for using DB, maybe his hand slipped or moved? That's thr problem with "I fell asleep on my keyboard," you just never know.
Yes, but smoking laws are there to stop people smoking. Botting laws are not there to stop people from playing till they fall asleep. It is to stop people using stones at GS2 to auto heal, or programs to farm stuff at skelegons. It is UP to the banned player to appeal his ban, but in my opinion, the ban shouldn't be kept if they are in town in "stanced" mode. The rule is there to stop people from doing various other things. Also he stated he fell asleep at preheads (if I remember correctly) therefore cannot continue without moving (and not being asleep). i'm not stating that sh0ok was using dragon breath intentionally, it's very easy to assume that because he was at Horntail (which was delayed a ton at very late at night, - which is proved in the appeal) and because he was using a mob skill in a supposed boss room, makes it very clear that he had just fallen asleep on his keyboard. Which in my opinion is proof enough, and That's like saying, yet again, that everyone should be punished harshly so some people don't slip through. If someone was farming skeles while moving in their sleep then there is obviously a problem, but some bans are far from that.
He was in town when caught though... Doesn't it warp everyone to the exit lobby at the end, then to Leafre after a certain amount of time? Idk. Edit for your edit: DB could be very useful to keep Wyverns away when you don't have an A/M to deal with them. Sure, botting laws are there to stop people from botting in any way. Which could include with your unconscious head/hand/foot whatever. What I seem to be getting is that botting while not receiving any benefits should be ok to prevent falling asleep bot bans or similar. But if they were botting, couldn't they have been receiving benefits at one point? Maybe they were warped out of a boss or died and warped back to town. How do you prove it wasn't something like this?
Well in Sh0ok's ban, it is clear to me, that his innocence is proven by his use of dragon's breath. If he seriously was botting horntail, then he would be using strafe, and most likely wouldn't have AFK'd at pre-head, because he would of known he had to move his character. You could say that his advantage was prehead exp (assuming it died). but this 'benefit' he would of received, would have been the same if the character was left AFK without using dragon's breath. An in my experience "DB could be very useful to keep Wyverns away when you don't have an A/M to deal with them." is not really a realistic counter argument. You still wouldn't bot with dragon's breath, in my opinion it just doesn't make sense and it is clear what has happened in this scenario. Other scenarios might be more complicated, but in my eyes this scenario isn't really complicated at all, and feels like a certain injustice, especially after i've seen this happen to various other people, including level 200's and they were never banned (falling asleep on keyboard).
This is where i think "innocent until proven guilty" should be used rather then "guilty until proven innocent" The people who get caught for being banned have evidence that can be clearly shown that they are gaining an advantage. I don't want to talk about other cases but since this is being discussed. There are screenshots that prove Sh0ok's innocence which shows him entering HT and at the end of the run not being present there. It is also stated in DseaHT run that he has fallen asleep. You can see that he is not present there in the SS. If Sh0ok was truely botting during the Horntail Run then by association everyone running on that run (including me) needs to be banned. Also Sh0ok is a marksman.
