Also, is it right to ban people who hit the "100 attack cap". Because the server already has a system where Sh0ok would have only been able to fire 100 Dragon Roars. Is that not a server fix/solution itself? If @Christopher Chance came five minutes later, he would have been in an "attack stance" since the 100 cap took over, rather than firing dragon roars, then would he still have been banned? Because that is a server solution in itself. what do you think? @Rob In my opinion he wasn't botting, because he didn't move to reset his 100 hit count, he was just constantly firing dragon roars.
The 100 attack cap is to stop people from botting in server since it's impossible to catch everyone. That doesn't mean they weren't breaking the no botting rule, although for cases of falling asleep there is some difference. If someone reaches that limit while away from their computer then they were definitely botting with the intent to bot, which, I think we would all agree, is against the rules; if they were caught before that 100 attack limit was reached they would still be banned, so no, I don't think people who reach that shouldn't be banned in general. Obviously there are some weird circumstances, but overall I think the 100 limit is to stop egregious abuse.
The rule does not nor is intended to take in account the intent behind the botting. Whether you fell asleep, left an object on your keyboard, or are truly there but don't look at your screen for 5+ minutes and thus don't respond to a GM, all three of those scenarios results in a violation of the rule being discussed. Also if someone uses ~gm and reports someone has fallen asleep, I think every member of the staff would simply ask if they were there to confirm the report being made, and then simply disconnect the character without banning them.
When people are appearing to bot because they fell asleep on a keyboard, or because they were playing Mapleroyals while in class and their teacher blanked their monitor, all I can really think is that they are taking this game far too seriously, at the cost of their health and their success at life in general. I must admit though, I remember going through that phase in my teenage years/ early 20's. I now look back on it and wonder why on earth I took Maplestory and other video games so seriously, to the point of sacrificing everything else to play them. That feeling of a headache and motion sickness from playing video games 14 hours non stop is something I now would have no idea why on earth I'd put myself through it. And the tetris effect when you finally do close your eyes to get some sleep... it was horrible! So what I think "human error" really means in this thread is "addiction". The "human error" botting bans are the result of being addicted to this game. Do we really want to change the rules just to ensure that people who break the rules because of their addiction are not banned? Does that not sound ridiculous?
I have done several HT runs where i'm half asleep and even once fell asleep and was attacking the wall for x amount of time, I woke up and everyone was logged out If I had been banned for anything like that it would seriously hinder my enjoyment of playing here since the threat of getting permabanned for something stupid as that would make me have to be careful of when I play, usually runs happen on very inconvenient times. If you get caught "botting" twice you are perma banned, you see the problem with having that hanging over you next time you do another run, it's not a normal thing that something like that happens but it's not really fun having that over you especially for a mistake with no benefit.
Wouldn't it be possible to add as an extra thing, if there is reason to believe that the person wasn't botting for a benefit as in it could be a player error and not real abuse, you would still get banned but if the staff believes no real abuse have taken place that ban wouldn't count towards your 2 strikes and bye bye. It's not even possible for a BM/MM to bot at HT no class really since you will get hit and pushed out of range, this isn't krexel i'm talking about... That is pretty obvious that the benefit is practically non existing and shouldn't count towards a perma ban.
No seriously, if you are not in a state that you can stay awake throughout the HT run and for long enough after to log out, then you should not be on Mapleroyals at that time. If your body is at a point that your brain just puts you to sleep on the keyboard, then perhaps it is time to admit you have a problem (e.g. video game addiction) rather than just complaining that GM's should make a rules exception for you. The brains of those involved in this are probably quite relieved by the 7 day ban! The trouble with trying to determine whether or not there was no "benefit" (or whether or not the person was originally attacking monsters but got warped to town somehow) is that it is a can of worms that the staff who already have too much to do would have to navigate
The problem I have with this is : there has been more then enough evidence to support my case, as every GM in this thread has said it is up to the player to prove their own innocence. -Using dragons breath at second prehead (worthless skill at ht), spamming and not replying (don't even know how long I spammed for as I can hardly remember entering the second prehead) -Chat logs showing me dieing (through others comments) and everyone saying wait until he wakes up to res him in the chat logs during the ht around 2nd prehead before moving on. -No response from me so I end up in leafre, and with continue to spam dragons breath -Sweep finds me first and whispers/talks to aram about me still spamming in town- If there was a clear rule about gming for your friend you think that fell asleep, then this would have taken place right then. -I finish the 100 attacks, chance finds me, warps me to another map to ss/gif me using the skill once more, knowing I had been afk who knows how long. (Ironically giving me ht elixir refunds for same D/SEA runs I had just fallen asleep in that night!) Now this is the part which is where I feel I got no clear indication on the rules. You say someone could have gm'd and said I fell asleep, and I would have been disconnected. But me and others have personally witnessed someone fall asleep in front of a GM during an HT run and performing the exact same "botting", even being warped to town and jumping for hours straight. Never once did the GM tell anyone you should ~GM if you think a player is accidently "botting" while asleep, and no action was taken against this player. I have a mountain of people who can backup my claims about falling asleep during prehead #2. (and to those of you worried about my health, I was only up this late as to play with my friends from SEA/AUS during their HT run which I had been waiting 2 weeks to attend). If there had been the instructing to GM if you think your friend has fallen asleep and appear to be botting, I would have never been banned, as Sweep and Aram had found me much before Chance did, wondering why I suddenly disappeared from the run. -The chat logs show from the HT show me falling asleep, and then even further private logs show Aram and Sweep talking about how I was still spamming in town, asleep. -If any kind of clear rule had said to GM if you think someone is falling asleep and looks like their botting, I'm 100% sure one of my friends would have taken action, but because of earlier situations where the GM did not seem to care or worry about it since it was very obvious that person had fallen asleep, nothing was done. If an admin wants further proof of this event PM me.
Question, would this be bannable? http://gyazo.com/6930954073090d0c1149cbc35d3eee3f http://gyazo.com/75467bcb238f7c832a04e1b75f0f846d If you havent seen this before, basically the 2nd client (the non active window) replicates movements that the active window does. However it only replicate movements pressed by the arrow keys. Please tell me this isnt a bannable offense. (Sorry for quoting you but id rather not make a new thread just for a question.)
This entire comment is quite rude and uncalled for. How would you know what time I work and get to play games? How would you know when I choose to play royals, or if I want to stay up late and play with friends from other side of the world. To accuse me of an addiction over a forum thread with literally not one word ever even spoken to me is downright disrespectful and I take much offense to that. Besides the fact, I don't want to drag others players into this, but to be honest with some of the more serious players, dozing off during an HT isn't an unheard of event. I have seen it happen multiple times, even egonic has admitted to it himself (in this thread, if others choose not to name themselves then I won't). I've never once been told by a GM to report a ~gm and say that you believe someone has fallen asleep, mostly because it's just common sense and obvious. Chat logs show everyone there knew what happened, I don't know what other evidence I could present myself if I was asleep during the time.
So Sh0ok gets banned for spamming dragon breath in Leafre when he fell asleep, but GMs just laughed it off when I spammed dragon breath next to Sh0ok's body for 2 hours straight without replying. I'm pretty sure it even got ~gm'd a few times .. (Yes I was watching my screen, but I also refused to reply until someone would ask me about whether I was botting or not, which oddly enough never happened). This wasn't a test to waste a GM's time, but it was a test to see if I would've received an equal punishment.
If you were to check the chat logs during the 2nd prehead, I guess I had started spamming breath before I had even died for a bit of time. So from what you're saying everyone on that HT run should be getting banned for partying with a botter because they all knew I had fallen asleep and was still spamming with no response.
Again, it doesn't matter WHAT skill you were using. I don't understand how you somehow think what skill you are using makes some sort of difference in the case, it doesn't. No such chat log exists. Not every single person is chat logged on every single map in every single situation There will never be a rule about GMing for a friend, as rules in itself are defined as some requirement to be followed. We are not going to require you to do something like using a ~gm to report your friend needing to be DC'ed. That is something you can do on your own. And if you need a rule for that and your hand held that much, you shouldn't be playing in the adult world, we're not going to spoon feed you and hold your hand. Stop blaming Chance. He was doing something nice for you by trying to refund you an elixir. HE DIDNT KNOW YOU WERE ASLEEP WHEN HE FOUND YOU! He has told you that time and again. In fact, he wish he HADN'T found out you were asleep because he was trying to do something nice and in exchange, he had to ban you for breaking one of the rules. If you think all the staff are out to get you the player, maybe we shouldn't be doing anything nice for you such as refunding your elixir. As I have said before and it went completely unanswered, I personally have not seen any such evidence of this. Show it to me (and via PM, don't make a public spectacle out of it). No, the instruction would not be if your friend has fallen asleep and appears to be botting. The only thing I said I would support is the staff disconnecting a player who has fallen asleep or needs to be DC'ed for some reason (emergency, they couldn't log themselves out and their mates don't want them to die on a run). If you are breaking some rule, such as KSing, your friends ~gm'ing on your behalf will not stop action from being taken against you. No it doesn't. Don't claim something you don't have the facts about. My first question is, how does this program work? Does it alter game files, does it emulate a keyboard? If you are unsure of the answers, let me know the name of the software and I, along with the other staff can do some more research on the program and get back to you. I don't have enough to go off here to make an informed decision unfortunately. Well as you said in your small text, no one asked you if you were botting. So of course you wouldn't be banned because there is no suspicion of you botting. If suspicion existed, the GM who appeared would have asked if you were botting. Seriously, don't test us and waste our time. We all have better things to be doing and exist only to keep the server running and assist you, the players. If you're going to test us, we'll test your patience by handing out bans.
Tentomon, you shouldn't really tell people how to play their games or live their life. You yourself mentioned you went through a similar lifestyle when you were 18-22. Coincidentally that's the main age group who play maple royals. You also talk about these events with much reminiscence and passion, so maybe you should let everyone else find their own path, maybe they will eventually agree with you or disagree but at least they found the answer out for themselves. I find it very rude personally. Since you personally don't know what other people are going through. I'm sure plenty of people are addicted to this server including the GMs, but is that a bad thing? Why is addiction always looked down upon. If I asked a hundred people if anyone had any addicted behaviour or was addicted to any substance, a lot of people would reply (could be smoking, drinking, drugs, video games, sexual intercourse, eating krispy dreams, etc.), and if asked purely what did it do for you, not why it was bad, what was positive about it. A lot of addicts would reply with it "gave me a sense of peace, pain relief, made me feel more connected, more confident, I can speak now a talk to other people" so the addict is just seeking out how to more or less be a normal person. So addiction should not be seen as THE PROBLEM even though it is a problem, but it is not THE problem it is the addicts attempt to solve a problem. Adverse childhood experiences, such as physical emotion abuse, a divorce in a family, death in the family, addiction, violence, jail, etc. All these experiences would increase the likeliness of addiction in a person. The risk of addiction goes up exponentially. Because the trauma shapes the brain, in a way to make addiction or being addicted to something appeal to the individual. The trauma gives the person the pain, which they try to smooth through addiction. So whether a person wants to play this game all night is up to them, they might find peace while playing, but what i'm not understanding is how you are linking addiction to falling asleep on your keyboard. It has been mentioned many times that horntail runs only get hosted at late times (depending on your timezone). I know that isn't an excuse, but it shows that you can't generalise. In my scenario I can't deny ever falling asleep while playing. It is something that happens quite frequently, whether I'm online in fm, while watching a movie, or I stay up to play with a friend from America and fall asleep at a boss, because I'm too stoned and tired. It happens, you sure can argue it's my fault, but you shouldn't tell me how to live my life. And it doesn't seem particularly fair to punish a group of people for that. On topic: Is someone even capable of appealing a ban if it was human error and not intentional, I understand what the rule is, but @Sh0oK isn't arguing he broke the rule, but saying he didn't do it purposely (asleep) and therefore had no benefit. Furthermore the server had already put sh0ok in the stance effect!!!! So he was literally just in "STANCE MODE" so was there really need to ban him? yes before someone repeats it again he was technically botting because he was spamming a key, but didn't the server already fix the problem itself with the cap. Also, I have seen Sh0ok try to explain this and give evidence but he keeps getting turned away or thread closed, with a statement "holding a key is botting you are banned". We all understand that, but the rule is far too general, he should be allowed to argue his case for innocence. And I think what @Demiosu was trying to point out, was not trying to waste GM time, but the fact that this occurance is hardly policed, I've seen it happens to a bunch of people before.
Another one bites the dust due to a lack of logs. Nice work guys! Spoiler: On topic... Everything there is to say has already been said, but I definitely agree with @maggles and @Sweep. In cases such as Sh0oK's, it's pretty clear he was asleep and not actually engaging in robot play to automate the game to his own benefit. The GM involved knew about the HT run he was on (since he was supposed to rewarp) and when someone is spamming Dragon's Breath in Leafre, it's hard to not consider that he fell asleep accidentally and the least that could've been done was asking the squad he was on to find out more about it, that would've taken 1-2 minutes at most. As for what @maggles said, this is a good way to distinguish this I'd say. Anyone who actually attempts to bot to gain any benefit won't be stupid enough to forget the 100-attack limit and will work his/her way around it. I don't see why it's so hard for staff to remain humane and fair at the same time with their decisions, because it isn't. Good ways to make the rule more lenient and open to human error have been suggested already and it seems like staff refuses to believe their decisions and thoughts could possibly be too strict or not fair.
Falling asleep at your computer is still Botting, regardless of whether you are performing actions on a map with monsters or are walking into a wall in a town. We've banned at least one person before that had legitimately fallen asleep at their computer and didn't have an uproar like shown in this thread. Although notably the person was not as high levelled and nor was there a 1.5x event round the corner, which undoubtably may lead to higher anger levels, even if both situations are the same. The only somewhat sensible 'suggestion' I've seen in this 'suggestion' feedback thread so far is:
The reason why we do not take the intent/reason for the "breach" into account is because it is impossible to prove anything based on subjective feedback. We may believe someone, but that doesn't prove anything. In scenarios like these it is not unreasonable for the staff to always be inclined to be more strict than you perhaps would like to be, simply because there would otherwise be too many subjective factors to consider. Botting is a hard thing to prove. Cut the staff some slack and realise that it is not unreasonable for us to be strict on the matter. The offense versus the effort it takes to prove the offense brings up the conclusion that the rule we currently have is nothing more than a necessity. I don't see the fundamentals of it change anytime soon. I, too, like this idea. It would make the rule a little bit more humane, that's for sure. While I think there is indeed a more serious problem going on if you allow yourself to fall asleep on your keyboard, people make mistakes, so you should be able to justify this mistake. Still, at the compromise of facing the 1st offence ban. That is only reasonable, IMO.
I also like this idea. I think it would be rather unfortunate if Sh0ok, or anyone else, got permanently banned for simply making this kind of mistake. As for my opinion in all of this, I already had a lengthy conversation with Sh0ok via PM, and other GMs already expressed my opinions here so I do not need to repeat them. I was wondering when @Dustin would show up here. <3
