That was part of what I meant with it being a problem to make it against the rules, I would find it a bit weird to ban scammers but not refund the player who got scammed.
I do agree that making people knowledgeable about these careless mistake would be a better solution, but I also think the first step is to let the community know there are such scammers around to raise awareness for being scam. No one would bother to care and think about these small careless suspicious things if they don't have the awareness.
I don't understand your gif; he's absolutely right. People on this server already instigate others in an attempt to get them to cuss at them just so that they can report them, and they already attempt to ~gm for boss rewarps constantly even if they know it's not server related problems. There are already hosts of people who make "political reports" on the forums and we have nothing to do about it; see this thread for example where the person who gets scammed ends up banned for reacting to the situation. Annnyway, The way that I like to look at scamming is similar to boss rewarps; we warp players into boss fights when the server removed them, not if it's the player's own fault. And I think that we all know here that being scammed is technically your own fault; you placed your trust in someone you didn't know, and thus if you lose because if it, you have only yourself to blame (well, and you can blame the other person for being a lying sack of shit, but I like to be self-reflective). I think that if we want to solve the problem of scamming, we need to look at it differently; either make a solid case for changing the rules to include a clause on repeat offenders, or find an alternative that better reflects the problem. The Leeching Whitelist and Community Blacklist are two such alternatives that we could actively promote in game as a community to help newer players not get scammed. I think that regardless of what the case is now, if we can make it to the point that the only people getting scammed are people who are so new to the server that they haven't even bothered to make a forum account yet or people who got scammed by someone completely new and out of the blue, then we'll be at the point where people will be afraid to scam others because they know that if they do, everyone will know about it. Part of why I've always liked this community is because, the way I see it, when someone decides they want to be a bad person here, they don't last very long. There are two cases of that going on right now (though I think @IntervisioN and @LuckyLook might've slammed doors in their faces recently) and I think that that's a far more effective way of dealing with something like this. Personally, I think that being ostracized by a community is a far harsher punishment than being banned outright, but that's just me. So, to link that back to the topic; I think that we don't need a specific pseudo-staff member to be the go-between of the players and staff members to draw these people out, I think that you guys have more power than we do anyway with regards to something like this, even if you don't think that's true.
I don't think refunds were ever in question because for the most part, the scam could have been avoided. I don't think people who get scammed due to their carelessness should get their items back. That, I feel is babysitting. However, there is a difference between that and taking action against someone who is being deliberately toxic. The only reason this topic even came up was so that we could mark who was being intentionally malicious. I think the principle behind this is to use the "flush" as a means of punishment so that scammers know that there will be some kind of consequence if they choose to keep scamming. I would like to think more people would stop scamming if they knew that there was some sort of consequence (albeit even just a flush). I've seen many posts on the forums that say, okay then since it's not bannable, I'll just go scam people myself, and I don't think that's healthy for the community. But there was a message not too far up about someone who had their scamming accounts listed. They made a new account that they didn't scam on and became a member of the community. They weren't permanently ostracized because they decided to change their ways, which is healthier for the community overall too because it lessens people who are scamming/getting scammed
Which, to me, is just the same as them not lasting long. Be it gone or be it reformed, I couldn't really care less so long as the toxicity stops.
I only brought up that point because you said ostracizing was a harsher punishment, I just wanted to show you that they wouldn't be permanently ostracized ^^ But again, I agree the biggest issue here is the toxicity it creates, not the scams themselves necessarily. (Although they are the initial cause of this problem)
To which my response is that there is no way to permanently remove any player exhibiting bad behavior on this server outside of a permanent ban. A player who has their IGNs flushed out by this system could simply go on to make a new IGN after the flush and get right back to it. And then the flushes just becomes "dang, is it <this guy> again?" Which is basically the exact same thing as the current Community Blacklist and what you just said happened, except with somewhat meaningless staff participation. Spoiler: A note about staff vs offenders I want to raise this point quickly about toxic people and authority. Toxic people love to fight authority; it is their goal and their purpose. The number of people we ban only to have them come back with names like "MikeSucks" and "TimKisLame" and "Creampoops" and whatever else is absurd. And that's why I leave this note here; if staff begins exposing names of players who scam, I honestly do believe that it will just egg these people on to making more IGNs and scamming more people just because "the GMs can only give away my IGNs, they can't actually stop me." Giving scammers attention is counterproductive, in my opinion; cleaving them from the herd and watching them wither away is a far better choice, but of course, that's just me. Also, as a side note, I want to say that it's not a matter of myself or anyone else on staff not sympathizing with scammed players, nor is it a case of us not wanting to help. I am simply saying that I honestly and truly believe that the better way to deal with issues of scamming are as a community rather than with authoritative intervention. If a meaningful way for staff to involve ourselves that won't exacerbate the problem arises, I will fully support it. I just haven't seen that idea yet.
I know this isn't the best means of approaching this, but how long would those people really continue making accounts. One of the reasons that they are still able to play the game is because they most likely have clean characters in which they are still able to use to interact with the community (This is at least true in the case of Vlada.) The later in the game you get, the more dependent you are on others to help you advance. While there might be a short period of "puck the folice" wouldn't this provide results in the long run? The staff has stated that they want to leave the community to handle this, and while there may be a better way, I think we can all agree that the current way is not working. A large concern that the staff is bringing up is the disconnect between the newer players that are actually getting scammed and the older players who are trying to take action against these scammers. With the current information we have, the older players are already doing all we can to warn people and to show that we do not condone scammers. Between the Community Blacklist, a few members smegaing every day, and us trying to ignore the known characters, I don't really know what more we can do. It's because we've hit a wall that we're trying to get more help from the staff now. While you guys are concerned about the validity of doing more, we're just stuck not being able to do more.
Which is why I'll restate; we're all actively trying to think of ways to improve the situation, there's just privacy and abuse issues that arise by sharing IGNs of players just because they've been accused of scamming, among other things. I definitely support the continuing feedback and ideas that arise, I just don't support THIS idea that was brought up, and I think that the rest of staff agrees with me, with the various reasons for why already being posted. Any and all ideas are welcome; whether you think so or not, we do consider every option put forward and do discuss them behind the scenes before beginning to post our responses here. I understand that it may seem sometimes that we shut down ideas quickly, but it's really not that simple, I can promise you that much.
Yea, I get that. Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain things further from the staff side of things. It's just this is starting to get out of hand, and a lot us are starting to feel irritated and helpless from all these cases. Since this has been effective before, we're just trying to do something instead of nothing. x.x EDIT: Any chance you or the staff have any ongoing ideas you can share with us though? The thing with community suggestions is that we only really know of the resources that we have available to us, and can only act upon or make suggestions based off of those resources.
Currently, I do not have any proposals as to how to remedy the situation trying to be addressed with this thread. As Mike stated though, the entire staff is willing to listen to any and all suggestions. Additionally, as Mike also stated, I don't think people sometimes realize how much discussion goes on among staff about single topics. I think on this topic alone, we've had pages upon pages worth of discussions and is likely the reason why you are seeing so many staff members not only replying to this thread, but with varying reasons as to why they personally are opposed to the idea. I completely understand that everyone has different views and approaches issues from different angles. That is (thankfully) why we are so accepting of any ideas put forth as an idea someone in the community comes up with, may be something the staff never considered or even may have considered but quickly realized it is not feasible for one reason or another.
This might not be entirely related but i just read the report on lovelybear leech scam, and apparently someone stated that gm don't interfere with scamming activity. What's the idea around this.
Here's an idea. How about promoting the White list & Black list thread in game? Make sure to properly notify that trusting someone in a trade is your own risk. Or maybe something like a helpful tip notice thing like: [MapleRoyals] *mention something about trading & scamming* [MapleRoyals] Make sure to check on the Black list community trade to avoid scams! Something along that line.
I really like this idea. It will help people who don't go on the forums as much and let them know that there is such a resource available. Also, I know it's been mentioned before, but maybe the blacklist can be moved to a more noticeable spot on the forums? I feel like it's really hidden deep, a subforum within a subforum.
I would suggest putting the Leeching White List and Community Black List in a combined sub-forum right around the top of the main forum page, but with hot-links re-routing to their current locations. That way, they will both be easily accessible to newcomers yet keep their current relativity to their equivalent sub-forum category. Also, there won't be any "Hey where is X thread?"-posts.
Already had identified the problem here but probably never got any spotlight as it wasnt in the feedback section and people just shrug it off. http://royals.ms/forum/threads/can-...orious-players-that-scam-other-players.35882/ Other suggestions i mentioned included: Pinning up an anti-scamming guide on the forum Mapleroyal tip (as already suggested here by cyndy) Including a starting tip (at an initial npc) saying something like "Hi welcome to MapleRoyals. We have a forum with guides to help you with your stay here. Please be wary of scammers! We hope you have a great stay here =)" And as said by alot others with a viewpoint --->Everyone need to get scam at least once to learn the lesson. No one can ever help them. As time has shown (from when i opened my new thread to now), these problems will never ever cease unless the consequences of scamming are serious enough to deter scammers from actually commiting the offenses in the first place (aka banning). In that case, let everyone learn their lessons. Looking at my poll (initially) the poll was in favor of not banning but as time passes, we can see that the odds have changed (most possibly voted by the community where people was scammed). I am however, still in favor of banning notorious scammers. ( note Notorious) and i believe that mods/gms have to make a decision of getting involved to ban scammers (to weed away these problems once and for all) or not, which means the problem is here to stay for good and everyone has to learn through their mistakes. (even if suggestions are made)
The entire community KNOWS Worker is a scammer on zico/lovelybear. He has been confirmed multiple times, this isn't just a one-time offense or some disconnect mistake. He continually does it and gets away with it untouched. This community would benefit from banning Worker.
