Thoughts on banning people for dropping apples?

Alright so I just wanted to make this thread to voice a concern that I have.
I've noticed that people have been getting banned for dropping apples, and although I do support keeping the game "legit" and enforcing the rules I'm sitting here wondering why it is that if someone were to get banned for dropping apples (so the issue can be reviewed, which is cool) that they would have to actually back up there reasons for doing so in the first place. I mean with that being said, by default, what you're really saying is you have no evidence to confirm that they actually have broken any rules. What happens next is the accused gets put in this position where they have everyone judging them, and GM's getting "personal" about the situation, when in reality it's not there job to display their authority in such a way. I think it's very unprofessional and I would hope that more respect would be involved in such matters. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly and I'm sick and tired of the popularity contest. You can't just single someone out because you have a personal issue with them, that's ridiculous.

 

While I disagree with the "ban all suspects and have them appeal their innocence" tactic, I'm not sure there was really any viable alternative.

My only possible suggestion would have been to hell ban all suspects - while yes it's an inconvenience to be unable to trade or drop anything from your account, at least it would give the GM's time to investigate further... But even then, what evidence is there really to be able to confirm someone was legitimately dropping apples or were doing so in an attempt to dupe? Logs only display so much, a persons story really does help determine the legitimacy of ones actions based on whether the two match.

Another option is an apple wipe - but imagine the outcry then.

I think the staff did what they thought was best. It's not like they're out to inconvenience everyone just for kicks.

 

The reason we ban players at the moment for suspicious behaviour is simply because they have been showing the same suspicious behaviour as the players that did actually dupe around the same time. In this case it involves dropping apples in certain maps several times in a row. The reason we ban them is to be better safe than sorry, as we can not take a risk to let any duper go free.

We then ask each player the exact same questions, and then check the logs to verify if the story they tell us is true.
You seem to believe that we become personal about the situation but I can tell you that we investigate every player's story unbiased.
Innocent is innocent, and guilty is guilty. That's how the end result of these banwaves will be.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the way in which it's been dealt with, I'm more just addressing the fact that everyone should at least be treated the same way while doing so. If you were to say that you feel like everyone that got banned has been shown the same respect while the issues were being dealt with, then I'd have to disagree with you.

 

I'm assuming you're talking about Hangjovi's ban appeal since that one is the one that is still open and actively talked about. We treat him with respect as long as he follows the forum rules, and besides that the investigation on his ban is the same one everyone else received. We did not reply to him in any biased way, nor do we plan to slow down our investigation on his case even if we do or do not like him as a person.

 

I have something to add here. As OP stated, why in the world do we have to backup our stories? that's the first thing. It's the gm's jobs to figure out what happened thru logs,ss,etc. We shouldn't be the ones providing proof. There isn't supporting evidence to just ban everyone who dropped them. Terrible move on the gm's part. Could've used a different tactic, honestly.

 

Enjoy your unban, possibly the last time some of us vouched for you seeing how you just replied here.

 

Ok, this is unnecessary. I was just about to mention this. Where is the "we do not reply in any biased way" attitude?

I have every right to voice my opinion just like everybody else.

 

Leaving feedback on what happened is something we can accept, we all try to make this server a better place.
But I find it outright disrespectful when you say we do a terrible job, right when we have decided to unban you after finishing our investigation.
With the amount of time and effort we put in to doublecheck everything and to make sure we can prove that you didn't do anything wrong, that is how you show your thanks? Please.. I may sound rude at times, but I put my entire heart into this server and the players.. I don't run 17 hour gm shifts for myself.

 

I never called you out for it. I said it just wasn't the best alternative out of the possible alternatives. I apologize if it did sound a bit harsh. I do appreciate getting unbanned though, you're a good guy Dimitri. I have nothing against you.

 

However, I do think discrimination/segregation has taken place. It shows in my appeal. Everywhere.

Here are some things I caught in this whole experience.

1. You don't just push any individual's appeal just because you don't like them. Absolutely not. I felt this way because my thread was not resolved or assisted for a day and a quarter.

2. You don't put personal screenshots in a ban appeal. It is irrelevant and just wreaks of discrimination. One of the gm's in my appeal did that. Made my opinion about him changed 360 degrees. It doesn't matter if this person cares or not, just addressing the point.

3. Some of the comments in the appeal are rude and not needed. The gm who posted the SS in the thread made rude remarks. Simply not needed. I, myself, don't let my emotions get in the way of decisions.

4. We, the players, should not be finding gm's the proofs needed for our stories. It should be the other way around. It's the gm's job. Period. In my appeal, I had to find people to prove my story, which I thought just didn't add up.

5. I don't care if these jobs are paid or not, how you deal with 1 player really shows the kind of attitude u have toward people. Just because you dislike or hate someone, doesn't mean they should be ignored. If I was a GM, and I disliked you, I would still help you out with gm services because you're just like any other player. You don't deserve to be treated unequally cuz of personal emotions.

6. I have looked at other appeals, none were like mine. They were all solved by gm's themselves, aka did not require the players to give "vouchers". I felt this was flat out unequal treatment, like the gm was purposely giving me a hard time due to favoritism.

Thanks to Katsuruka and all the other "helpful " gm's that assisted me. You guys are the real mvps.

As for the hateful comments, keep it to yourself. I also have a "zero tolerance policy" towards any form of hate. I'm not looking to answer anything. Just speaking my mind. Peace out.

 

1) From all of the back and forth needed to resolve your ban, I think it is far more likely that your case was much more complicated and took longer to process.
2)

Spoiler: Troll

360 degrees means you're facing the exact same way m8

3) You are far from objective in your opinions as was shown from how you handled the shit from HT. If you believe this to be true, please be more introspective.
4) In no place has this server stated "Innocent until proven guilty." They have made it very clear it is the other way around, and it is their server to run so we just need to deal with it.
5) See 1. Also even if they were biased, shit happens when you don't treat people with a certain amount of respect.
6) See 1.

[Your post note]
I'd recommend you watch the latest episode of South Park. It would be extremely relevant to your "zero tolerance policy."
Heres a link: Season 19 Episode 5

 

Spoiler: Troll2

Goin in for the double kill, it's "reeks of discrimination"

 

I'll reply to each point you've mentioned here from the perspective of a GM who was semi-involved in all of this.

The reply to your thread was not delayed on purpose, please don't think that we put you lower on the list because some may not like you.
There's still at least 1 ban appeal open that has to do with the potential apple dupe, the reason to that isn't that we have any emotions towards that player but it's more difficult to confirm his story. (I will talk about the player story feedback in a later point)

I agree that this was unnecessary and I apologize on behalf of staff for that. I didn't even see that there was a screenshot until today.
This should indeed not happen again in the future.

You make this sound a lot bigger than it is, all we do is ask you if you can explain a certain action and the motive behind it so we can check this with the logs we have. We can check this without your input, but it would be a lot of extra work. I personally believe it doesn't hurt to ask you a question or two, since you're not in trouble as long as you're innocent. We didn't even make you find people to prove your story, Katsuruka asked around if people could vouch for you and so they did in a PM to her.

I feel like this is a repeat of point 1, 2 and 3. I can't add much to this as I've already apologized for it earlier in this post.
I do believe every player should and does get treated equally, even if it sometimes shows different to the public. But I hope this becomes more clear in the next point.

Some ban appeals were closed really fast because the players confessed to have duped in PMs, some other ban appeals closed fast because they didn't drop apples as often or provided us with the information we were looking for rather quickly.
We didn't keep your ban appeal open for a longer time than others to keep you locked away or however you may feel about it, it was just harder for us to verify your innocence since you dropped apples in several different maps on several differend dates. We asked for the input of other players to help us verify it and they did, you should totally thank everyone who did vouch for you.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with us, I hope it doesn't happen again in the future.
~ Dimitri

 

Firstly, you get the point. And I do agree, some part of that is true. The disrespect and unfair treatment from the gm's is what I'm getting at. Don't care how long I wait as long as I get equal treatment, which, in this case, I have reason to suspect the opposite.

In terms of HT, that has zero relevance to this matter, so I simply won't reply to that. Also, I know that we need to deal with it, it's the way the gm handled the situation that set me off.

As for south park= irrelevant to this discussion, so I'm not going to bother with that.

Again, I'm not looking for a debate or anything, just telling my experience. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

My only contribution to this thread will be a public apology for my unprofessional responses in that thread. I do not mean to justify my actions in any way, but I do think that I need to say just one thing;

When a Game Master or Administrator is busy or off duty for any reason, it is incredibly disrespectful to be harassed by players. I have been harassed by hangjovi on multiple occasions for assistance, and I have never ignored him, nor did the rest of staff today in regards to dealing with his ban appeal. My posts in his ban appeal today were with that in mind, and yes, they had emotions guiding them. I am not arrogant as to ignore my own mistakes, I simply refuse to be misrepresented, and so I wanted to make those points clear.

Once again, I'll restate that I in no way mean to justify the way I acted as I'm aware that the responses I made were unnecessary. And I do make a direct apology to you, @Hangjovi, for them.

 

The relevance of both of these is your claim to objectiveness, and your refusal to take criticism. HT shows how you very much let emotions get in the way of your decisions.

The South Park episode is titled "Safe Space" and is a social commentary on people refusing to acknowledge negative feedback or criticism. It is not a good thing.

 

If I did absolutely nothing wrong, why would I take criticism for it? Not a chance. No one is going to try to pin anything on me like that lol.

Anyway, bottom line is, I have already stated my point. So I don't see any point in arguing with anyone.

But it does leave me wondering, if the gm's banned everybody who dropped apples this time, what if next time it's something really pointless, like a snail shell, and everybody possessed and dropped them? Would they just ban the whole server then?

 

lol yes it does

Reputation is everything on this server; think about that before you continue to dig your hole deeper. I'm amazed the staff were so patient with you needlessly bumping your thread every couple hours. A quick check of all the other appeals proved that your case was by far the most complicated and would require some serious searching through the logs.