Hi! No, don't worry. This is an actual feedback thread. Recently there have been lots of scamming going on and it's been rampant across Royals for months now. The worst thing is, these scammers are being let off without so much as a warning. Scamming is a major offense, be it through Max meso trading, leech buying, or any other method in which the victim is not in control (shop scams are your own fault. Read what you're about to buy before you make the transaction). @Manslut made a thread to "flush out" scammers, and while it did certainly help out the community, the GM's didn't enforce the rules. (Thread: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/suggestion-flush-out-repeat-offenders-scamming.40690/ ) Recently, GM's and Admins from Royals are claiming that scamming is not a bannable offense. I'd like to share with you 3 reports which I've found. And ALL THREE contain a ban associated with the case 1: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/report-firemage-for-scamming.14207/ 2: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/scg-manual-scamming.15514/ (this one actually received the SCG manual as a refund, and a ban associated with the report) 3: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/nukka-leech-scamming.18635/ All three of these reports have something in common. Every one of these individuals put their trust in the scammer, only to have lost that trust in mere moments. All three of these reports are different scenarios. One contains leech, the other two are items that have been trusted unto the scammer. Now, may I bring about the question: Why does a mass defame (3 or more defames from one individual [or his/her alternate characters] to another) constitute a ban, yet when someone gets scammed of 60m for leech, it's the buyer's fault? Fame is a USELESS number. It has no meaning to the game. You can have 1000 fame, but that doesn't make you reputable in the eyes of others. Mass defaming is harassment yes, but what does it really ruin? That pretty little number underneath your level? Scamming is more than just harassment. The victim loses more than just a number, they lose their hard earned meso, lose trust in random players they meet across the server, and it makes them more protective and unwilling to trust another individual due to past scamming experiences. What's the point of playing a server where scammers are rampant but if you bring about 3 defames, it's "cya in 3 days". This report alone made me consider making this thread: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/reporting-haul-for-scamming-for-2-9billion.44979/ He scammed over 9 BILLION mesos. If 5 defames warrants a ban, shouldn't 9b meso that was scammed constitute a permanent goodbye from the server? It just isn't right. There's a solution to this problem. And I would like to see what constructive criticism the community has with these solutions a) Ban any CONFIRMED scammers for 3 days first offence, 7 days second offence, and finally a permanent ban as a third. (This does not include someone's internet being down, because I believe that good people will come back on to the server and fulfil whatever transaction they had started) b) Give a warning, and put them on the blacklist as they're being done right now (basically do nothing) Sidenote: Does anybody remember Jacto? Yeah old name eh. Nobody even remembers him anymore.. My point for this comment is that people on the blacklist are easily forgotten. You never really know who is a scammer and who isn't. You can make another character and start scamming with a completely new name. At least a ban ensures you won't be making new characters Spoiler: pls consider can we PLS PLS PLS have stackable ciders Thank you!
I don't know how to edit this into my first post, but to answer this question, people can tell a scammer from a genuine good person. Also, one scam isn't enough to warrant a penalty. If this person has a multiple track record, then let him be punished.
I personally don't care about scamming nor believe it should be a bannable offense but it baffles me how something as trivial as name calling is bannable yet stealing money isn't.
Exactly, if a person has a multiple track record (A multitude of proven cases) why let that person remain toxic to the community? Especially considering how trivial some of the things are that people get banned for. (@ReconKatana & @IntervisioN both gave valid examples.) To be honest, I don't feel the aforementioned penalty of temporary bans are sufficient enough. I'd much rather see it in two stages: 14 day ban at first followed by a permanent ban if continued. Let there be at least some form of consequence, because clearly the blacklist isn't preventing people from being scammed. Yes, I'm aware of the blacklist and so are plenty of others, but, be that as it may, clearly a lot of people aren't.
If this is the case then these people should be thankful that they're learning this in a game where no real money is at stake. Also banning for defames is pretty silly imo and a waste of the gm's time. I don't think that should be a thing in the first place thus using it as a standard to judge whether other acts ban worthy doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
So you're saying that people out there in the real world, who also are victims of scams (phone scams etc etc) should learn from that mistake? You put trust in someone in the first place. Scamming breaks that trust, and not only does your bank account take a hit, your morals and trust do as well. It doesn't matter what happened to you, scamming is still scamming. You can't anticipate a scam. You basically said "oh if you got scammed, lol next time don't buy leech" If it's in the game, it's in the game. As for your second comment, you do realize that I can't even say a simple swear word, let alone human anatomy on SMEGA without having to worry about a possible ban associated with my action, right? I'm not bashing the rules or anything here, I'm simply stating that if something as minor as name calling or defaming can get you banned, something major as scamming should definitely be a clause for bans
Well its clear from their outcome they're trusting people they shouldn't. If you get scammed on a phone scam your trusting someone that you shouldn't as well. They simply need to require a higher standard of reputability from a person before putting their trust in them. Blindly trusting anyone for any reason doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If they learn to just be slightly more careful without taking huge losses, then that's a win for them in my book. You can definitely anticipate a scam. If I were go to a shady used care dealership i'm already making assumptions as I enter the business I notice a lot of the cars look beat-up, the salesmen's mannerisms seem a tad off. I can concluded that its probably more likely I get something that doesn't work from here then if I went to the brand new Ford dealership next door. If I go through and buy from the shady dealership I know i'm taking more risk then with the new dealership and that's my decision to make. Just like the defames this is a dumb rule also. I'm from #america. I know alot of the admins/gms aren't but I bet if we took a vote the majority of the server would not want people banned for smegaing a lot of the things people get banned for saying.
Not in Royals, at least... You walked into the shady place knowing full well what you were getting yourself into. That's not the same scenario as someone buying leech from a Smega stating "S> Leech"
My solution would be, 1. to purchase from people who are less likely to scam you. Guildies or Friends had for a period of time. 2. Or if they are a complete stranger just don't pay them until after you have received your leech. Make them take the risk not yourself. You could do both of those things if you wanted. With the second one you eliminate any possibility of getting scammed even when buying from a complete stranger.
Yup, and if the only way for you to not be at risk if for the other person to be at risk,then those are the kind of deals you want to try and setup. As it stands when buying leech 1 person will always be at risk, you need to lookout for yourself not the other person.
I feel like this has been said multiple times now but I'll say it again because I don't think the staff has found a solution to this, nor has the player community. How is someone "confirmed" a scammer? If someone is confirmed as a scammer, we ban them. We have said this time and time again and as you see, have stayed true to our word that if there is proof positive that scamming has occurred, we will ban and take action. The problem with cases like the ones where Haul "scammed" someone, there isn't proof that they were scammed. You can say whatever you want but without the proper evidence to back up that claim, it's a case of your word vs theirs.
"However, scamming is not considered a banworthy offense according to the T&C so I will be closing this abuse report." Your post on the Haul report. I'm confused, Is scamming ban worthy or no? Isn't it possible to confirm a scammer with unedited screenshots+shop transaction records?
What if someone had a screenshot of a full conversation where the price of the item to be sold is set and agreed by both parts, a full video of the buyer buying arrows (or w/e item seller put up in order to get the money) as proof that he/she fulfil his/her part of the deal, and screenshots of multiple attempts trying to contact the buyer in a more than a reasonable time window (lets say 48hrs) to discard the possibility of the seller disconnecting/leaving because connection or any other issue. Would that be enough to prove that he/she was scammed? And if it is enough, what actions would be taken? just a ban? or a refund too?
Although we don't have any official policy on scamming, mainly because it's so hard to conclusively prove, I am in complete agreement with John that if clear proof can be provided that someone has scammed, I'd be more than happy to take action and ban them. With leech, it's easy enough to prove that you paid for it by either doing a video of yourself buying arrows/junk drops from that person's hired merchant, or doing ~servertime to show the time and date and taking a screenshot showing yourself purchasing the arrows, with the servertime showing up clearly. What isn't so easy is proving that the leech didn't happen. In theory, we could say that if someone hasn't been able to deliver the leech within 7 days, then they should return the money to the buyer, BUT... what happens if the person who is going to do the leeching is genuinely unable to be online for completely valid reasons? It's very hard to prove whether something is a genuine reason or a BS excuse.
How come Haul got forum banned? Did he even break a forum rule or is it just to prevent him to cause more scams? --- also on topic : Why not just force the community to record the whole trade if they wish to do trades that requires using a merchant or when your crafting a certain item? (not counting in leeching) For example (merchant) Lets say that you're trading 3b for a 10 att pgc & the player wants you to go first. 1. You start recording. 2. You and the player confirms that you're doing a 3b arrow trade for the players 10 att pgc. 3. You proceed to buy x amount of arrows for 3b. 4. The player trades you the 10 att pgc. 5. Both parts end up being happy =) 6. Stop recording. If the player ends up leaving once you paid him, make a report and use the video as evidence and get him his punishment. The staff decides what to do. For example (crafting) Lets say that you're trading the ingredients to make a scg, and the player has the scg manual. 1. You start recording 2. You and the player confirms that you're giving him the scg ingredients so that he can make a scg for you. 3. You trade him the items. 4. He makes it for you. 5. He trades you it back. 6. Both parts end up being happy. (= 7. Stop recording If the player ends up leaving once you gave him the ingridients then proceed to make a report and use the video as evidence and get him his punishment. The staff once again decides what to do. The only thing that I see that could go wrong is that if the player could dc during the trade which could end up getting banned without the intention of scamming. The only problem with the trades is that if the person decides to scam you, then you have to save the file, render it & upload it. And after all the hassle you need to make a thread & a GM needs to review it. All of this will take some time, which gives the person enough time to get rid of his networth to different people, which could be a problem if scamming like these could be refunded. -- (Sorry if theres grammar errors or some bad wording. Im going to edit it all later once I have some time.)
I'm not going to be part of a discussion about scamming, but I can answer the question above for you. I caught Haul making a 4th forum account which is why he's banned from the forums for now. There's nothing else to it really.
Just a tought... Shouldnt gms ignore arrow buy traded since you go a higher risk to avoid taxes and the mesos sink? I mean if you atleast trade item to max mesos and make a second trade for the rest you got 2.14b for sure and just scamming a discount of less than 1bil in your case seems less interestibg than a full price scam. Other thougt on my side is that something has to happen in such case. Since we ban ppl for vulgarity to keep an friendly community we may not allow scammers. In my eyes they have an much worse impact on community. The longer it goes the more ppl will start scamming. Maybe only because it works maybe just to make up their lost.
The person paying (getting scammed) still pays the same amount. If anything, according to your logic, the gm's should pay MORE attention because the scammer is going through the trouble of avoiding taxes.
There's a big question: Royals is nostalgic maplestory server, so most of players are +20 yrs old. How much childish u have to be to scamm people in game when having 20 yrs old pls
