Have ways of getting rid of leech ever been discussed?

Sort of a can-of-worms, but I had this thought the other day.

I barely ever grind, the only exp I gain is usually from bossing. But I felt like grinding some skeles so I teleport to skeles. 9/10 channels were someone buying leech many of which yell at you to change channel before you even touch anything (only one channel was a duo, and that's, DUO ONLY SORRY).

It made me think, how awesome it would be, if instead of just a leech-fest of people working by the hour for virtual currency hogging all the channels, it was filled with people above 108 in large grinding parties doing everything they can to take down the skeles and contribute to the party exp.

Now, just knowing this server I can guarantee most people would be against any measure to get rid of leech because they put so much time into their precious bishops and selling leech is such a massive part of this server. BUT... For this thread, it would be awesome to keep discussion to how leech could hypothetically be mitigated, rather than whether or not you support the idea.

The root of the problem is obviously the mechanics of party exp; you get too much for doing nothing. I don't know much about how this works, the numbers and calculations and whatnot, so I really can't offer any legitimate suggestions.

What's been thought of? What would work? What wouldn't work? I'd love any links to other threads of people discussing real solutions who know what they're talking about.

 

Eh, nvm, close this.

After a few searches doesn't look like anyone's changing their mind lol.

 

Like every other thread on this topic, I'll give it the chance to have meaningful discussion. If it becomes a meaningless thread with a bunch of unrealistic propositions like its predecessors, I'll shut it down.

Good luck...

 

I feel like leeching will always remain. it's just a part maplestory cuz we're all a bunch lazy fucks
Perhaps add some new training grounds which support party play, that way leeechers can leech and those who want an more interactive grinding session have that?

I rememeber an old server wanting to implement this by adding LHC into the game and this was an idea that most players enjoyed.
LHC is basically an training ground that gave more exp depending on how many members you had in your party. The mobs did also have considerably more hp than regular mobs which made sure that players couldn't exploit this system and encouraged everyone in the party to participate in attacking the mobs.

Coding this might be difficult though.

 

Yeah.. I just saw the poll where like 90% of all the people here support leeching so I'll just stop lol.

I just think it allows people to do nothing. Vote NX -> Sell ap resets/Gach/TP rock -> leech, repeat. One of those variables gotta be removed.

Honestly, If you couldn't just vote and get plenty of money from that, I wouldn't have a problem with leech, because you'd have to grind/boss/farm to get money to buy it. You want leech? Then you gotta go farm the 40-65m it's gonna cost you.

but as it stands now you can literally do nothing. And a lot of people do that. You can make 34mil a day off of TP rocks from the NX you get for doing nothing every day.

Solution? Somewhat radical but, make AP resets/TP rock untradeable, make gach tickets AND items rare drops/boss drops.

And the rare drops thing is an idea I'd love to see, for example, I remember in OG runescape, every mob had a super-duper tiny chance of dropping the Dragon Medium Helmet. I just thought that was a cool aspect.

 

Leech is something I've always hated because it makes you play the game in a way it was never meant to be, which is playing all the classes using a bishop. Many classes like night lords and corsairs were purposely designed to be slow at grinding as a trade off for their amazing end game single target dps; part of the challenge in making those classes is getting to that end game 4th job level and leeching robs that challenge away. Not to mention leeching makes washing characters extremely easy, something that shouldn't be. If you invest in 200 base int on an assassin in order to reach 10k hp by level 140, then it should feel like hell getting there. IMO, the main problem with leeching is not necessarily leeching itself but multi-clienting. Being able to multi-client essentially makes partying obsolete (and all the other perks that come with partying) as you can just make your own party and do everything yourself, discouraging party play and promoting solo play. It's dumb how I can just solo krex with my night lord without needing to find 2 others with se and hs, while having both those skills at my disposal AND getting the full benefit of solo exp.

Regarding party-exp ratio, you have to understand that if it were to get nerfed, it wouldn't just be affecting leech. Legitimate parties that grind as a group, and even bossing (especially bosses with multiple parts like zakum and horntail) would also be receiving a massive nerf. I can't say for certain whether nerfing the party-exp ratio will be good or bad for the server but it'd definitely be a bold move to change a game mechanic that's considered sacred to many of us, but you know what, I'm all for it.

 

As for the party-exp thing, I just think if it were to work the whole system would be have to be reworked from the ground up. Tweaking ratios would, like you said, effect party play across the board.

That said, there are plenty of other MMO's that don't have the problem of leeching, and their party systems work fine if not better. I think to find an answer we'd have to look at other MMO's and consider how the party-exp systems work.

In the current state leech is just so, rampant... like 90% of smegas are about buying or selling leech. It just feels, unauthentic. Like you said, not how the game was meant to be played.

 

One group of players only knows how to make mesos via selling leech. Another group will only gain levels by buying it. Regardless of whether even they think it is a good mechanic or not they will fight to keep it tooth and nail.


In general I believe people being able to advance levels while not playing the game is a bad mechanic. Should I be able to leverage my ability to make money to skip a large part of the challenge of the game (grinding)? IMO, I think it should be required that players have a mastery of both skills to be successful at the game. Successful players should know how to make gold while also having the discipline to get through the grind. I want to be able to respect a high leveled player not question his methodology for getting there.

Also as Jaden pointed out, I can potentially get to 150 on this server with even less effort, then most post-bb private servers. Right now I can make a fresh character, stop playing the game while voting for 10 months, return to gach and buy my way to 150 with the mesos I've earned for doing next to nothing in game.

non-cosmetic items in cs + free nx + being able to pay to level = potential to produce a level 150 that doesn't deserve it.

Unlike Jaden however even if free gold wasn't a factor I still don't think leeching is good for the game.
Nexon definitely did not intend for it to be played like this and I would go as far as to say those buying leech are hurting their own experience without realizing it.


Solution: ----> If you don't want to pwn parties that legitimately train together, nerf the one class that clearly has a broken skill that even nexon nerfed. Also tweak AM slightly.

 

I want to point out the fallacy of this not being currently true; the levels that a player leeches for rarely extends past early fourth job. Any player that is truly "successful" on the leveling/grinding side of this game is at least late 18x (the halfway point of total exp to 200) if not 200 outright. No player would be relying on leech to get to that level unless they're leeching themselves; it becomes financially inefficient to merch for leech levels long before that point.

My point is that the portion of this game that I'd believe most people define as what determines a player's relative success in terms of grinding is long past the point where leech is relevant of a topic. What does it matter that you leeched 100m exp in your 3rd job when you were grinding 600m-1b exp per day from 170-200?

To further this point, it was mentioned that leech is a method of covering for the lack of grind power on high DPS classes like Night Lords and Corsairs; I don't think leech covers it at all, speaking as someone who's made level 200 on both a Hero (easy grind class) and Night Lord (hard grind class). Yes, it made it easier to get to the point where my character is relevant, but my late levels were significantly more tedious and constrained as a Night Lord than as a Hero for the fact that my ability to grind for exp was so bad.

Restating that I simply don't agree that leech changes the value of the ability to grind. Lazy players who cannot manage to grind/play their characters themselves do not find 150+ to be very easy, and tend to quit.

 

My gripe is, the level brackets where there COULD be big, fun training parties, there is instead people sitting on ropes hogging channels with a bishop being paid by the hour to do the training for them, because leech is allowed.

Like just the other day, we managed to get together like 5 or 6 people all of a different job in a party in skeles and it was a lot of fun. But that's rare, because people would rather just buy leech, and due to the mechanics its not as efficient as just duoing with, again, a bishop.

At the higher levels people are just bossing anyways. Pardon my ignorance, but isn't skeles the highest lvl training place? Other than that one area in ToT?

 

Low levels is all that some players know. Not everyone is hardcore enough to get 170-200. While the amount of exp they've gained may seem minuscule to you it is substantial to them and I'm sure that they do compare and judge each other accordingly.

Even If we are willing give a hypothetical player who leeches up through 150 a pass if they earn the exp afterwords, does allowing players to effectively bypass large portions of the game provide for a good experience? Those are potential memories they are missing out on.

Edit: Then as a player who likes to grind sometimes, It affects me when I want to find a ws party and people would rather afk on platforms while being leeched.

 

You're missing the point.

The point is that leeching discourages grinding parties and instead makes the server revolve around two things in order to reach a high level;

A. Make a bishop and leech yourself
B. Save up mesos to buy leech

There is a serious problem with this.

I have to tell you from personal experience that level 75 - 135 was extremely boring and anti-social for a DK. The only option I had was to party with a priest at himes.

The server became more about finding ways to earn mesos to buy leech rather than finding a party to grind with.


It was a very isolated and lonely time at level 75-135. Leech is a major contributing factor to why many new players quit in my honest opinion.


Here is the solution. Make it so that a class MUST be attacking / moving / not-afk to receive leech exp. If he / she afks for say, 20-30 seconds, they will be unable to leech exp. Another idea is to buff "attacking" exp and reduce the "leeching" exp. Kind of hard to explain, but basically, if you attack, you receive much more exp for the party and yourself.

I realize that priest should not need to attack to receive exp. In my day, priests HEALED, made sure everyone was blessed/ hs'd, and fetched items for the entire party. These changes will force priests to not just afk and hs.

This will solve the problem of buying / selling leech. It will actually encourage people to party together while completely killing the concept of leeching.

Leeching destroys the game. People play for a nostalgic, social experience. Not a server composed of only leechers and bossers (who obtained those levels through leeching lol).

P.S I don't play RMS at the moment but if leeching is removed and there is a wipe. I'm definitely coming back! =D

 

This may be slightly off of your original anti-leech topic starter for this thread, but I want to address what seems to be one of your key complaints, which is the limited number of training options for lower levels. I remember in a previous iteration of these types of threads (which there have been many of), @Katsuruka or another admin gave a potential suggestion of balancing out more potential training maps. Maps like GS2 have insane spawn right now, while others (say MP3) have really weak spawn rates compared to what they used to be in GMS. Perhaps balancing out those spawn rates (and other maps, I'm just giving two examples don't hate please) would give rise to more training options (yes, and potential leeching options too), which would help address that problem.

That being said, I think that for these maps with the insane spawn/exp rates, they're always going to be rather full whether you nerf leeching or not. If you just take GS2 for example, when I'm channel surfing on one of my lower characters looking for a map, it's a pretty healthy split between leechers and grinding parties (I'd say). When I'm looking through WS, same. Actually, I would say the same for skeles. I don't think I've ever cc'd across all 10 channels and seen 10 leeching parties. I usually come across a pretty healthy number of grinding parties. To that, I say, you can remove the bishops or leeching from the equation perhaps, but if you want to boost grinding parties... those maps are just going to be full with grinding parties. I don't really think it'll really be that much easier to find a map...

That said, if anyone is having difficulties finding viable training locations, I've always found @Catlaunch 's training guide rather good. It's not being currently updated, but nothing drastic has really changed in the game since it last was. It does include the traditional places everyone flocks to, but it also provides really great alternatives. For example, for ranged people, you don't always have to cram your way into WS. Sniping newties is totally a valid option, depending on your range. Close combat? Stick to FOG man. That spawn is insane, and the drops are better than GS2 in my opinion anyway. and etcetc. It's split up by type of job, so it's easy to browse by what type of combat job you are playing. LINK: http://royals.ms/forum/threads/catlaunchs-training-guide.12021/

Spoiler: putting this in spoiler because I desperately don't want this to become another "yes leech" "no leech" drama thread

It makes me feel very uncomfortable when people talk about what others "deserve" from this game, or when they try to dictate how others should play the game. Who are you to say that you deserve any more or less than anyone else? If someone wants to painstakingly grind their way to 200, sure, do that. Nobody's disallowing them from doing that. Nobody's forcing them to buy leech. Everyone makes their own decisions about that.

Just letting you know, although I did receive some leech from wonderfully helpful and friendly guild mates, for the most part, I basically grinded my night lord from at least 80-105 because I was too poor to buy leech and I just didn't want to — I was saving my money for AP resets. I had no problems finding grinding parties, whether it was with my guild mates, with randos through smegas, or just with randos through ccing. Calling this game "centralized" around leech seems to be a rather one-sided or narrow way of looking at this community. I know many people who have gotten to fourth job without buying leech.

Please don't shame others who want to play the game differently than you or invalidate their in-game experiences. Everyone plays this game differently, but I'd like to think that we're all here because we find some enjoyment out of whatever we do. Whether we're bossing or hanging out in the fm, we're all making our own memories. It seems rather presumptuous to think that any one person's "memories" are more valid or more important than others.

 

Leoye summed up a lot of what i meant

I don't really care about the whole penis envy of who leveled higher or who hp-washed the hardest or who deserves what. It's a matter of the gameplay just being centralized around buying and selling leech, which it really is. I find large grinding parties as actually, *gasp*, fun.

Sure, leeching stops early 4th job, but so do opportunities for grinding parties to exist as there are just less players that high lvled and no new places to grind that are by any means efficient. And, even if higher lvled training areas were to be added, you betcha leech will move right in.

And if high lvled maps were to be added, big ones are key. look at wolf spiders, large parties are viable because of the sheer size of the map, its efficient. And so efficient that WS leech isn't even that necessary. Cause even at lvl 75, you can find a party that will have you and you'll level fast. Level 108 at skeles? Good luck finding someone to duo with you.

 

Penny darling, introducing more training areas will not remove the problem that leech presents. Leeching is the optimal way to level as of now from level 75-140+. No amount of training spots will fix this problem. Or maybe it will...

It's time for a story my friends! Imagine yourself as a new player....

You could be a lvl 75 crusader, a lvl 100 hermit, a lvl 95 chief bandit, a lvl 90 ranger or even a level 85 priest with max HS.....
You are excited, ambitious and ready to tackle the maple world!

You log on to the marvelous server that is MapleRoyals and you try to find a grinding party at himes, skeles, squids, gobys, and maybe even vikings to relive your nostalgia!

YOU ARE READY TO SOCIALIZE AND MAKE FRIENDS. THE WORLD IS READY TO MEET YOU.

Only one problem......

EVERYONE IS LEECHING. EVERYONE IS LEECHING AT EITHER MP3, WS, OR SKELES. AHHH. 'WHAT HAPPENED!?" you wonder
'I was going to make new friends and grind my way to a high bossing level! I was going to earn my levels and make friends along the way!" "But all training maps are either empty or full of leechers! What kind of game is this!" You scream in frustration.

But you slowly realize that you have no choice. You buy leech and the exp is just so damn fast! You cave in, you make a bishop. You gach daily for leech. You bow down to our leech overlords.

Boys and girls,

Do you want a server that has more meaning behind a level?
Do you want a server that is harder and more party orientated?

EDIT: Removing leech stabilizes the economy also because without leech bishops would not have a way to farm 60m per hour easily.

Can someone who is an economics expert explain what would happen to the economy if leech did not exist?

 

I like your idea and would enjoy more varied training spots.

That said I still hope leech is removed as well. I think it would provide for a richer experience for the vast majority of players even if they don't realize it.
People being able to leverage their money to bypass parts of the game not only makes the experience worse for themselves, it makes it worse for others
who might meet them when party training and form a friendship. Heck, even if they want to straight up grind and dont care about friendships. What other server/version of ms has people hanging from ropes
gaining a significant amount of levels?

Also I would say the split especially at key spots like skele is easily more skewed towards leechers.
I do want it to be all grinding parties.

I don't think your a bad person for leeching (i've done it also). I can respect that you're trying to play the game in the most efficient way possible. That said I don't think you should be able to do it. I don't believe nexon intended for the game to be played this way. I also don't think this is the best and most enjoyable way for the game to be played. You say it seems presumptuous to think that one persons memories are more valid then another. If your memory as a leecher is you doing something else irl while someone else levels you, and mine as a grinder is partying with others potentially forming new relationships, I think its safe to say I'm going to end up having a more enjoyable time (you are not even on the game) producing more good memories.

 

Nobody is forced to leech, nobody is forced to party with a Bishop, and I'm honestly tired of hearing people say that. I'm also tired of hearing people try to impose what is more or less valuable of an experience to an individual, because we do not get to decide for other people what makes them happy and what makes them unhappy. This thread is not about whether or not leech is the best way to level up, this thread is not about if leeching is fun. This thread was created with the intent (that I see) of finding methods of making leech less centralizing towards gameplay from 75-135, and this will be the only warning I give. Keep this on topic because I WILL close this thread without a second glance if we start going back to those points.

 

To maybe get this more on topic, I'll restate a bit of what I was saying earlier...

Post PQ-levels (21-72), Wolf Spiders starts at level 75.

What I see as different about Wolf Spiders is that large party training is common, Whereas just about every other place whether its Ulu, GS2, Skele, Himes, whatever, it's leech or duo.

This I'm pretty sure has to do with map size. A large party can efficiently train at Wolf Spiders because there are enough mobs and space to go around. I've never been in a situation where a WS party wants to limit its size. Show up to a skele duo, they don't want a third member because there isn't enough mobs to make it efficient.

Point is, people show up to WS at the fresh level of 75, and any WS party will take you. Show up to skeles at 108 and nobody will take you on for a duo.

Now, I don't know much about how HS is calculated, but I'd hazard a guess as it has to do with how a Priest providing HS at WS adding a 6th member, even if it's a lvl ~75, will gain more exp. Whereas a Bishop soloing at skeles, duoing with a level 108 will ultimately lower their exp (they're practically leeching you).

Point is, I think large maps (WS) are more conducive to large parties of people grinding, whereas these smaller maps go right to leech and duo (with a bishop). As well, genesis just eclipses the entirely of most of these smaller grinding maps.

Or maybe I'm just full of it and as soon as genesis becomes a thing, it's game over for large party grinds. In that case, I think if we want to decentralize leech as I think leoye was suggesting earlier, the massive mage AOEs gotta go (like that'll ever happen...). Really the only way. And I'm sure, with some thought, this could be done without just crippling mages entirely.

And, as a person who just thinks grinding in large parties is much more fun than leech or duoing with a bishop (I can't imagine this is an unpopular opinion), I relish at the idea of something similar to the set up of wolf spiders but for 120+.

 

Spoiler: condescension is not nice

I know that things can sound different on the internet or in type versus how you say them out loud, but I really didn't appreciate how condescending the start of your post sounded. You can disagree with me, but please don't patronize me by starting with "Penny darling." Would you have said the same thing if my name were, I don't know, Kenny instead of Penny? I highly doubt it.

And to the second part of what I quoted from you... I'm sorry but I just gotta say, "That's on you." As I've said, I've been in your situation, and most of my exp during those levels was gained through grinding, not through leech. That's not just my experience — many of my friends also did it without grinding. You choose what you choose to pay for or do. Unless my friends and I all have some bionic immunity to peer pressure, I really don't think the game in those levels is as centralized around leeching as you portray it.

I still don't appreciate how you're valuing your own opinion of a good time over others. Just as an example, many people who detest the levels that we're talking about. Now, I'm a college student. I'm blessed with piles of time that I can do whatever I want with, and I spend some of that time on Royals. Not everyone is that lucky, and I think it's a lot to ask that they spend the short amount of time they have on Royals doing something they don't like. Perhaps their "enjoyable time" producing "good memories" comes after their leech, when they can do the things they want to with their friends or just do what they want. This is just a game, and there's many ways to play it and enjoy it.

To @JadenSmith's idea about removing mage aoes without crippling them, I'm curious what kind of solution that would look like. Right now, it kind of just sounds like a "make me some magic" idea to the Admins and GMs. From my perspective, if we remove mage aoes, it instead makes them reliant on 1:1 close combat attacks. The whole difference between mages and "attackers" is that attackers deal great 1:1 damage, and mages deal great many:1 damage. What you're proposing is inherently altering that model and basically tries turns mages into attackers. If we do that, then the whole argument about where they rank on dps becomes a whole other issue, and we're losing out on what mages are in the first place — they're a grindy grindy job. There's a reason they're better at grinding than other classes (which you've pointed out), perhaps to the point of eclipsing them. It's because they suck at bossing, which other classes rock at. I see where you're going with your idea, but I just don't see it as a viable solution.

 

Basically, I was just zeroing a more, comprehensible view of the problem. A single skill is a whole lot easier to deal with than a revamp of the exp system or make it so inactive characters are DCed, both of which would be much more difficult to implement and effect ALL characters, not just mages.

If we just all of sudden, disabled the mage AOEs, leech would be over. No questions asked really. No weird spillover into other issues. Revamp of exp system would totally mess with all other party training, DCing inactive people would suck for everyone else.

I just think we're closer to a solution by thinking about the mage AOEs than we are about altering the exp system.

In a magical world where dreams come true, the mage classes just need to be rethought out from the ground up. An entire class (actually, three of 'em) dedicated to the leveling of other classes is just horrible in principle.

@football mentioned nexon actually did remove the massive mage AOEs, I don't know anything, but I'd love to know the details.