Say for a situation in training map (not boss map) Player A is the map owner. Player B entered the map. Player A: cc pls Player B: Hi, i am not training/hitting any monster. I just want to do my own stuff (maybe buddy chatting, guild chatting, reading guild bbs. or afk or anything) Player B turn off his pet loot equip, he carefully make sure he did not touch any monster, nor looting any equipment. Making sure that his name does not appear at the last interaction at all. He find a safe spot and just stand there. Player A: No, I am the map owner, pls cc. I don't feel comfortable with your presence. Pls cc, or I will report. Player B: I don't think that is ban-able. Player B refused to leave, and do not answer Player A back anymore after that. Player A proceeds to do what is necessary in filing a report, using the map owner command for sufficient time interval, asking him to cc, and file a report on the forum. Question: Will Player B be banned? Note* Player B did not attack any monster, not looting, and turn off pet loot equip. *Player B did not reply Player A after the sentence "I don't think that is ban-able." (Player B did not harass Player A)
Yes. The map belonged to Player A, they clearly asked Player B to leave, and they can certainly do so. If Player B said to me "But I was just doing my own stuff" as you referenced, my response would be "Why did you have to do it on that map? Why couldn't you have gone to town, used a nearest town scroll, or even hit the trade button that would take you to FM?" There's plenty of ways to do their own stuff without being on a training map. Refusing to leave a training map is just escalating a situation that didn't need to happen in the first place.
Pushing someone to leave is also an escalation of a situation. As I said before, it's not against the rules to sit in a map and the rules say nothing about doing everything the mapowner says. I do doubt that situation would ever happen, as neither party was particularly rude, but if that is the case neither party did anything explicitly bannable either. What about a situation where all the maps are full and someone wants to wait in a map until the current mapowner leaves? Given the current mapowner didn't say whether or not he or she would be there for much longer. The mapowner command give great power, and with great power comes great responsibility. But power corrupts, and the absolute power we've given mapowners corrupts absolutely.
The situation you stated is a good reason as to why we allow a map owner to ask others to leave their map. I don't think any of us would be thrilled to be training on a map with someone sitting on our map just waiting for us to go AFK so they can quickly come in and take our map on us. Does this happen with more popular maps? Of course. But again, my question remains, if someone isn't attacking the map and tending to "their own things" why can't they do it away from a training map? I can't think of a single good reason to justify allowing someone to just sit on a map.
To turn your question back to you, what good reason is there to not allow people to sit there if they're 1) not breaking any rules and 2) not being a nuisance? And no, sitting in a map doing nothing is not being a nuisance. If someone's pixel presence bothers you, the issue is you. "Because the mapowner says so" is hardly a good reason because mapowner was implemented to determine who owned a map and to deal with rules violations, NOT to give the mapowner unlimited power within the map. In fact, it was a concern of some that giving the general public the command, and not just the GMs, would cause even more problems. Well, look where we're at now. Mapowner gives people a way of from dealing with issues themselves in a respectable way. Instead of working through issues in a mature way people can just do ~mapowner CC PLS and get someone banned. If the command wasn't available to the public there are two ways I can see people handling it: one is working through the issue like adults, maybe calling a GM if needed. The other is by being immature assholes throwing around insults. The latter is cause for a ban regardless of whose map it is; and I think it's more important that we ban individuals willing to jump to rude insults than questionable KSing bans that could have been avoided had both parties involved acted like the adults we all claim to be.
I think I'd understand if the player was not legitimately AFK, and was purposely jumping around the map being an obstruction or distraction without hitting anything, I feel at that point the mapowner should probably have a right for the person to be removed as long as there's evidence of the map owner at least asking the player to leave. Legitimate AFK'ers should be killed with summon sacks if map owners are that bothered about them imo, otherwise I do not see any reason for legitimate AFK players to ever get banned if they are not doing anything.
What? lol. If they are that bothered about somebody being on the map, that is the only option they should have at their disposal to remove the player from the map. And I'm sure they would prefer to be killed than banned.
I'm going to apologize from now because this post is likely to be a somewhat long one. I will also apologize because this post may likely have more emotion in it than I'd like, and so it may come across as upset, angry, sad, or whatever else. A couple of pages earlier, an individual posted saying that we stick too hard to our rule book, and criticized us for it. Then later on, we were criticized for breaking trend and issuing a ban to one player and not to another for very similar instances. Which of these two things do you all prefer? It appears as though whether we stick to our rules and precedents or not, you will be upset over something. It seems that people are never happy with the job we do, and that makes it only harder to move forward and keep making decisions. We have to consider what a ban will look like to the public, what precedents it sets for future, else people will call us biased or unfair... or, even better, they'll call us unpredictable for taking things case by case, which is exactly what that individual was asking for us to do. One thing that I really do find the need to say is that this thread largely focuses on the players that do get banned. Have you all considered the vast number of players that don't get banned because of the systems that we've put in? The number of times that the ~mapowner command has saved a player rather than having them banned? The time that we used to spend as GMs on players' maps, trying to haggle and negotiate between two players that obviously did not want to leave a map and work something out because we had absolutely no idea who was there first? I understand that the command has its flaws, you've all mentioned them so far... the ability to control a map and everything done on it is not something we expected, for example, but I'll ask that you all please try to consider the immense benefit that this command has brought us before you speak up about its flaws. We as responding GMs can show up, use ~mapowner, and efficiently clear out any number of KSers in a heartbeat because nobody wants to get banned. The command does leave us very simple and clear situations where we ban and where we do not, and maybe that is a drawback for you, but I would like to make you the sincere promise that the situation was far, far worse before, and that was back when we were a small community of a hundred people online at once who mostly liked one another. It seems that that is not the server we all play on now, unfortunately, and that makes me very sad to say. Finally, I'd like to mention one thing about responses to threads or ingame situations. Every Game Master and Administrator on staff was chosen and is constantly being watched to ensure that they make sound decisions that we all believe are correct. Any decision made on any situation that is even remotely controversial, unclear, complicated, or special in any way, I can absolutely assure you came as the result of more than one member of staff, likely more than two or three as well. We put a lot of time and effort into making the right decisions on bans no matter how it seems. That being said, bans that are issues quickly are essentially bans that we have decided are not controversial, complicated, special, unclear, etc... they are decisions that whoever is responding to the thread has decided can only be one way. That any member of staff would've made the same decision in a heartbeat, and there was no sense in waiting on opinions. That is when a ban gets issued quickly. And one final note on this topic; any ban that you've seen that has been overturned was overturned because more information or opinions were added to the mix. I will not be so arrogant as to say I do not make mistakes, and of course no member of staff is perfect either. We make mistakes just as you do, and when we notice them, either by other staff members pointing them out or you all as the community pointing them out, we do our best to fix them. Please try to remember that we are not robots who just have "banned 3 days" permanently grafted to our Ctrl+V shortcut, and that each and every member of staff and everything we do on a daily basis is for you all. We make decisions as quickly and as efficiently as we can, and we strive to make the right decision as often as we can, in every situation. Please help us help you. After all, we're all here to enjoy the game that we play, that's the bottom line.
I just want to say that the groups of people criticizing you in these different ways are almost always not the same people (and if they are, they should be ignored). there probably won't ever be a way to please everyone since we all have differing opinions even if we are all "non-staff players". keeping this in mind may make it easier for you to make decisions for the future since you won't have to try to please everyone involved, an impossible task. you're probably already doing this, but reminding yourself may make it easier to understand and accept that this type of criticism and these threads will always pop up regardless of your decisions. I think you're doing a great job and like you said your post was emotional, and I hope you're not stressed over "us all" always being unhappy, since it's normal.
I have some thoughts I'd like to contribute piggy backing off of @inversion and his comment. I don't think it's wrong to try and please everyone, in fact, I think that desire is very helpful for the idea of self improvement. It's a powerful motivator to say "Oh man, someone isn't happy. Maybe there was a better way to do this." This can initiate a self review, which I think is very important for everyone not just GMs. So, I don't want that thought process to be abandoned, but it should also be limited. I don't want the GMs, and I hope everyone feels the same way, to be stressing over this to the point they can't make a decision or even when they're not "on the job" they are agonizing about it. I think this has been mentioned before in this thread, but perfection is impossible; to err is human. Now, I know that's cliche, but it's easy to be blinded as a GM by all the scrutiny your actions face. However, I think it's something that part of the community needs to keep in mind too. This can be hard especially when you're on the receiving end of a mistake, but if you talk calmly and politely to GMs about it, from what I've seen, they'll respond by being helpful and understanding. If you get flippant with them, don't expect any sympathy. Most of the time, they weren't there. They're operating on incomplete evidence and their perspective will be based on that. We won't be able to eliminate all the bad apples, but if the community can remain sympathetic, understanding, supportive and view the community as a whole not as sides (Gms and Players) that seems like the healthiest route for continued growth. tl;dr -- People make mistakes, but lets try and support one another when that happens.
I respect GMs and all their work they doing for us in Royals no doubt . Still I think Rob is not wrong about the fact that mapowner shouldn't be a power to tell someone to cc if person is clearly not attacking. If u dc and lose map then it's ur problem, what's wrong about waiting for map ?Person is not ks u noone is doing anything wrong to you. If someone start hitting then sure report, but if player is simply waiting then i see no problem. Map is ur, u won't lose it untill u keep attacking. Also nothing is said in rules about being on someone's map. About different types of ban it's obvious u can't make everyone happy but sometimes you just see this hilarious ban and you thinking "seriously?" I think GMs are just to strict about rules. Alright base ur judgment on rules, but make exceptions. Banning leecher for that person who was getting leech was autohs is just... There's plenty other bans (not only in my opinion) that seem simply wrong. Also account sharing is weird for me ... I used to share one character with my sister on ems all the time. I understand because of that u avoid problem with stealing and selling accounts but I think sharing with family with the same ip shouldn't be banable it's just hilarious u getting ban bcuz ur brother was on ur account. And the last example I saw few bans because someone wasn't 13 years old It's just my opinion I wanted to share (no hate). Like i said I'm not against the rules we have here I respect them and all GMs work
Lol haven't been on forums for ages and I see this interesting topic. As a side-note from what I notice about the the discussion (and my personal opinion) so far: Yes, I believe GMs sometimes make rash decisions and mis-ban people at times, yes, they make mistakes. But who doesn't? I'm not going to say the players are prying open cracks in the walls of the decisions of admins to speak badly of them, because they posted this forum not to be an opposition to the GMs, but rather to give them input on what they see as a problem (Isn't that what the feedback sub-topic is about?). Good points are made on behalf of both players and GMs. I don't think anyone should take any of the posts in this thread negatively (except those that aren't constructive in any way shape or form and are just an insult). For the players, I believe that looking at the bigger picture is important, the mis-bans, quick-to-bans are a problem; but if you were to look at the big picture, like how you should analyze any situation, and scroll through those ban appeals like I always have for entertainment, you'd see that a quite a bunch of the people who are banned are evidently troublemakers and trolls. I've seen this server on since two years ago September, and I personally believe the GMs are doing a pretty darn good job at controlling the server in general. The command mapowner was made to simplify decisions, similar to the argument of being given a gun and how the usage is up to the person. The main problem is the people who actually really abuse the command without a thread of humanity, like, seriously? You're on this server to be social and have fun, what fun is it to grind all day all night if you're the only player on the server? I understand that players want to achieve in a game to get what they needed, but for most people this shouldn't get to the point where people are like "cc or ~mapowner and report to ban u". A majority of the players on this server are great, it's the minority that people notice, the minority that really causes trouble that gets noticed while the majority of the good reports and good royalers that go unnoticed as it's the norm to be fair and mature. One of the posts on this thread was about the GMs being too "stuck to the rulebook", of course they are, they have to, or else who's going to enforce the rules if everyone plays by feelings and lets one go after another? In modern-day society, decisions regarding law must be made a fair as possible, which is what set our expectations. But consider this, GMs don't have that much time, they're most likely not government officials or professionals who've read up 5 years on law etc. (sorry if any of you guys actually are), they have to deal with thousands of players, with only so little time and members in the team as opposed to the real-world. In a server it won't work the same as real-life, this should be expected. I'm not siding for GMs, I truly believe they're doing a solid job. Same for the people who are constructively trying to help improve the server. But everyone's gotta be a bit more positive, y'know. If moral dilemmas were solved so easily with no gray areas, there wouldn't be as many problems in society and the world in general, they're called dilemmas because there's no right/wrong answer and can always be argued for one side or another. But it takes only a few proactive people to find a solution and bring a closure to problems in cases like this. Regarding the quick-ban and afking in the map. I haven't been too active a player for the past year except stacking up nx and gach tickets and omok. But just from what i've read in this discussion about how it works, if possible, why not code a waitlist for map ownership (I'm not sure about the difficulty of this code, just a suggestion) and lengthen the mapowner so if they go to the bathroom or grab some food they won't lose it? The main problem which generates conflicts is the gray area where a player may be "intentionally" or "unintentionally" afking, why not just give the ~mapowner the ability to @teleport_to_fm where it's usable only if the player has been inactive for >5min? And if they aren't really afk, you can just ask them to leave nicely. Pointing out the errors and wrongdoings is important to generate the question to answer, but continuing to do so will not help solve the problem, i'm sure if everyone just tried to think outside of the box and suggest ideas what helps solve the problem, this wouldn't have been such a major problem in the first place. This is just a few suggestions which may or may not be doable/plausible, and i'm sure there's plenty of far better ideas out there to be spoken, constructive suggestions and brainstorming can only help add to the pool of possibilities. Note: I'm just stating my opinion, my arguments or opinions are not perfect, i'm merely suggesting my point of view on administration and the problem, don't nitpick parts of my paragraph just to argue because there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. My main point is that, this is a wonderful and great server since the times I've been here, so keep it that way. Instead of arguing about who's correct or incorrect based on gray areas, try to find ways to minimize the gray area, find interesting new ways to solve the problem. And i'm sure everything will be more successful than ever. -Mudkipz (2400 Gach Tix, 700k nx) <---Don't miss out on the biggest Gach Run of royals sometime in the future.
I don't understand why everyone is talking about GMs being humans and making mistakes as well Oo ofc they are u dont have to say this lol . I'm trying to understand situations where new player getting ban e.g account sharing with family and he asking for another chance and he's saying he wont do it again (let's be real noone is reading rules before starting new game) and GM's simply reply : U broke the rules you should read before playing u won't be unban (perma ban). Or bans where someone wasn't aware of being in pt with hacker (perma ban). These people didn't do anything bad to server and community why won't they get another chance ? I'm trying to talk about these type of bans, not controversial bans everyone is talking about bcuz some well know player got ban. Also I don't understand the fact u have to be 13 years old to play o: I get it u don't want spaming kids on ur server but come on my best time on Maple started when I was 11. So my cousin can't try out Royals because she's 10 also she can't check out the game on my character when she's at mine because it's banable I mean let's face it Maple is game mostly for kids, sometimes I feel like I'm playing top secret game I understand GMs have a lot annoying players to deal with because server became more popular lately, but isn't that something they are happy about I mean at least I think it's game owner goal to get more and more players who also will donate so u can afford paying for server. I'm not saying GM's doing bad work because they doing great but in my opinion some rules should be changed a little because I see many players who didn't do anything bad to community getting ban
You were supposed to be 13+ for GMS too. People just didn't/couldn't enforce it due to the high volume of players. Furthermore, it is probably also due to there being no language filter and the fact that they would be meeting people online at an impressionable age. Secondly, the example you gave for account sharing is exactly why we don't allow it. Everyone else works hard for their items, levels, mesos, but by you guys sharing an account you can get those results for much less effort. You have gained an unfair advantage over those who do not share. Although I don't know how viable it would be, I find the @tptofm command very interesting haha. However, I kind of don't like that idea either, because then the mapowner might be able to abuse it by trying to give it to specific people and removing the unwanteds from the map (which mapowner was never intended for in the first place). Interesting input though! Also like mentioned, we do overturn bans when we think we err. I understand people may be upset at being banned too quickly, but I haven't seen an instance where we haven't unbanned them after realizing our mistakes. Clarity for those gray areas is indeed what we are striving for here though, so please keep on topic about that. Things like account sharing and age have no gray area (unless you're considering how severe the acct sharing was, but either way it's a ban) so those examples really have no place in this discussion, imo. If there are gray areas about it, then please feel free to enlighten me, but as it is I feel like those are 2 rules that are pretty clear. We aren't here to change the rules, but to provide clarity to the ones already existing so that bans will be given with as little controversy as possible.
I understand we aren't here to change rules. I'm just simply saying my opinions about few things which are bothering me for a while. But if u saying u guys overturn some bans then I should apologize because I didn't know about it. I understand account sharing simply feels unfair but I will stay with my opinon with family it shouldn't be banable. I appreciate your answer, time and work u guys giving to Royals
You're entirely free to do that. You can give whatever you want to whoever you want, as long as you don't log onto their account or exchange the in-game items for real-world money.
Well I'm not exactly where this goes, but I feel this topic best describes the comment. I, much like everyone else, probably chose this server due to the whole professional GM pitch you guys are throwing there. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a professional GM have an unbiased decision in such extreme outcomes like bans? Now I'm not the only person on the server who thinks this. I feel many are afraid to voice their opinion due to the fear of having their fun game taken away. If you look in the report abuse section you will see some of the same people constantly reporting everyone for the same little things. Now these people always get the ban the request somehow. However, you have many situations in other reports where it's an obvious ban yet no action is taken. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/ban-appeal.55874/ Take the ban appeal above for example. GM took the time out of their day to look through pm's and whispers to find chatlog weeks before the ban to prove it. I have also seen many instances where a scammer is reported with some evidence but not completely 100% proven. Now if the GM did the same thing and helped them out they would probably prove the scammer was scamming and it would lead to a ban. However, what always happens is the GM will say no action is taken due to not enough evidence. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/trybest-bots-his-hs-when-hes-afk.51300/ This post for example reports a botter. This is one of those people that actually deserves a ban for taking the fun from people who are trying to play legit. However the gm refuses to act due to it being in the wrong section? Does this mean botters don't get banned unless a formal report is made? These bias actions are just destroying the community of this server that has just tremendously increased over the past few months. A lot of players as well as myself would hate for such an amazing server with such a wonderfully large community to just crash because GMs choose to pick favorites. I'm not saying I know what the solution to this situation is. But something just has to be changed for the sake of everyone on this server.
Suggestion: Say for a situation. Player A reported Player B for scamming, posting several screenshots, but is deemed as not complete evidence (it is hard to 100% prove that scamming has taken place) Player B will be given 2options: 1. Admit the offense and serve the 3 day ban 2. Plead innocence, GM will proceed to check the logs. If proven guilty, Player B will face a harsher punishment (maybe 1year ban, or any other appropriate ban time period, or a permanent ban) If Player A is found to be intentionally fabricating evidence, Player A will face the harsh punishment as well.