On the current way KS reports work.

So, the current format for submitting a KS report can be found here. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/new-report-abuse-format-for-ksing.57289/

In short, you need to do the following
1 - You need to kindly tell the player you don't want to party/share a channel and you would like them to change channels. You can't just say "cc plz"
2 - Explain to them the command ~manpower
3 - Explain to them the ToS and that kill stealing is a bannable offense
4 - Two timestamps, two minutes apart, showing that the other player has not left yet

I feel as if this is giving way too much power to the KSer, and is a little disrespectful to the person trying to grind.

I don't see why 1 is necessary at all. If you're trying to grind, you probably aren't able to just stop and hit up a conversation with the person. Some people die in two hits from mobs and that's why "cc plz" has become so famous - it's a quick way to ask someone to leave your channel. It's not rude, it gets the point across, and ultimately I think it's very reasonable that you want to get your requests out of the way as quickly as you can as you are trying to play the game.

I think it'd be really helpful to get the commands taught early on into the game. The first NPC when you create your character currently doesn't say anything important, and I think it'd do the game well if she brought up the important ~ commands and also gets a confirmation that the user has read the ToS, which brings me to my next and main point...

Why do you need to explain the ToS to the person harassing your grind? This is something they should have already read, as it's literally required to play the game. I can only assume that everybody who plays this game has thorougly read the ToS, otherwise they're breaking the rules and are subject to a ban. We shouldn't have to explain the games rules to people who are breaking them.

4 is totally reasonable and I have no qualms with.

What do you guys think?

TL; DR - The current system is too generous to the people who are ruining the game for those of us who have put in the time and investment into reading the ToS and just want to enjoy the game.

 

I don't think the current set up for reporting KSing is unreasonable. If you are truely being KSed then the steps put in place aren't really a huge deal. I'm not sure of your experience of the original MapleStory but that was always filled with massive KS wars, you really couldn't train without being hunted down by a guild and having your map taken over so I'm really grateful we have these few steps in order to prevent something like that happening.

It's not difficult to tell the person to politely change channels, I'm guessing everyone has auto pot or you can hang from a rope or stand on a safe platform while you explain the situation so dying shouldn't put you off. Remember you have 3 minutes between any attacks to talk.

I do however like your suggestion of having something introduced in the quest line on Maple Island to explain something particularly about mapownership. When I first started on MapleRoyals, I didn't know what it was and it took me quite some time to learn what it meant and how it worked. I'm an avid forum lurker but even all my searching I couldn't find anything that specifically explained this mechanic. I often see in the KS Reports that people simply don't understand how this works and think there's a command being typed that enables someone to steal the map from them or that the highest attacker takes the map ownership, so yes, definitely some education needed there.

Different people have different views on what KSing is. This is why a little explanation of ToS would help. Again, I think back to my old days in the original MapleStory, it was popular and quite common to share maps with people (without asking). It was okay for you to have your own little space on the map, infact it helped because it pushed the spawn rates. KSing was exactly what it stands for, kill stealing...following someone around the map and purposely killing the mobs someone else was going for. On MapleRoyals, many people view KSing as killing anywhere on someones map so again, people have different understandings of this.

It'd be nice if players took 2 minutes out of their day to explain everything properly and in full because there are a lot that don't quite understand everything. All it takes is someone to be the better person and it would stop them ever killing on someone elses map again hence reduces the need for any KS reports. Of course there will always be a few that will continue to be poisonous to the server and that's when a KS report is needed.

 

I kind of agree with what Shona said, the current killstealing report abuse format is not unreasonable at all.
From personal experience as a player I've noticed that if you say "cc pls" people either don't understand you or they think you're being rude which leads to a lot of unnecessary conflicts. With that said the whole reason we changed the format is because we want people to deal with this in a more civil way and honestly if people would do this, there'd be a lot less conflicts and reports needed. I stopped saying "cc pls" a long time ago and instead just started saying "Hi there, I'm training on this map and it belongs to me. Could you perhaps change map or channel? I'd appreciate it". Now it sounds like a lot of text I've put there, but honestly the average player here has a wpm (words per minute) of over 60 or 70 so it's not that much effort really. To come back to why I say this instead of "cc pls" is because I've literally not had any problems with people killstealing me ever since I started dealing with it in a more civil way. (And yes, I've dealt with a lot of players that don't speak english very well, it's not that hard to do so as long as you stay polite)

In the end, one of the things we've always stated is that players have to try to resolve issues among each other themselves and only if they really can't manage to do so, should they call for GM assistance.

 

I have a two things I would like to say.

1) There's a message along the lines of "Familiarize yourself with the T&C. Ignorance of the rules is not tolerated". The fact that we have to tell them its against the rules is ridiculous. Why do we have to suffer for their ignorance for the rules? There's a white message that pops up from time to time to warn them to read the rules, and that they won't get sympathy for ignorance otherwise. The requirement of verbally telling them that KSing is illegal is utterly ridiculous and contradictory to your own "tip message".

2) Add a command called "~ccplz <playerIGN>" that outputs something like the following:

<Checks if <playerIGN> has hit at least 1 monster within the past 2 minutes on the same map>
<If no, tell the mapowner that he didn't KS yet>
<If yes, output the following to the player in question>

"This map is owned by xxx."
"xxx requests you to leave the map or change channels. You have two minutes to comply or the map owner can legally report you for KSing him on the forums."

And to the map owner himself:

"<playerIGN> has been warned of to stop KSing and leave the map."

And after 2 minutes:

"<playerIGN has no left the map after 2 minutes. If you wish to report him, please screenshot this message and the previous one as evidence and file a report on the forums. Please be warned that edited screenshots will not be accepted as evidence."

So the mapowner simply has to screenshot the above two system messages to prove it was a KS attempt.

So we get the benefits of not having to die in 2 hits typing out an array of messages (usually to players who don't speak English anyway, so its practically a waste of time), and get a clear and concise message across. There will also be no "debating" on the GM's side about what constitutes to a "full and complete warning" to the KSer.

 

There is no need to add yet another command. It has been said many times before that we are against the idea of adding player commands unnecessarily, and ~mapowner serves its purpose. Yes, ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. However, by doing #1, it encourages you, the potential reporter, to engage with the person in a civilized way. As Dimitri said, some people either don't know what cc plz means, or it can be seen as being rude.

I honestly don't understand why it's so difficult for people to handle disputes and issues like this civilly. But since it was and is an issue, these are the guidelines that need to be followed for a successful KS report.

 

If this was a GM and someone was caught mob vaccing, I doubt that GM will "engage in a civilized conversation" with the mob vacc-er. Realistically, he will be banned for mob vaccing outright with no conversation whatsoever.

What I'm trying to say here is, you seem to be cherry-picking the rules that "ignorance of the rules is not an excuse" applies to. KSing being illegal is listed in the official list of rules found in the T&C, and there is no distinction between it and other rules such as hacking (which includes mob vaccing, of course). Yet, some of these rules, or perhaps only KSing, gets more leniency compared to the rest of the rules, in that "ignorance of the rules is not excuse" does not apply to them in nearly the same way.

Sorry, John, but at times I've had to deal with KSers every 15 minutes at maps Skeles, and having to type out the full list of what I should say and printscreen what I should printscreen, it becomes very frustrating and unnecessary. This command will help a lot of players, and it gets a common, agreeable message across. So far, there is no "strict guidelines" for what you have to say, and people have different opinions on what they should include in their "civilized conversation" despite the rules. "Rude" is never clearly defined, and yet most KS reports get turned down for "being rude" in communicating with the KSer. If this command outputs an agreeable message among the GM community, no such problems will occur with the judgement of rudeness and sufficiency.

It is difficult because it is tedious and gets on your nerves quickly. If you disguised yourself as a regular lv 12x class that isn't a mage and has "average gear" and solo trained at Skeles for 3-4 hours during 8x exp, you will see what I, and the rest of the playerbase, mean.

 

The difference between KSing and Mob Vaccing is KSing affects other players, whereas Mob Vaccing doesn't affect another person, it involves just the hacker themselves. So no, I'm not cherry picking anything. I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to be polite for other people because they can't be bothered to. If people want to play on this server, they should do so in a civilized manner.

 

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

 

Mob vacc-ing does affect other players who happen to stumble upon the mob vacc-er, so are you saying that they should warn the mob vacc-er about the rules in this case? I will just say from experience that 99.9% will do a quick ~gm and leave the map without saying a word.

As you said, you're not willing to be polite to other people because they can't be bothered to [be polite]. Then, why should we have to be so formal and 'civilized' in warning their ignorance of the rules? I don't believe any of us consider KSers 'polite', so what you said more or less applies to my logic here.

I would also suggest that the term "cc plz" be defined in the T&C as it simply benefits everyone in the long run. Your argument against using the term so far is:

1) "People don't understand it" - Therefore define it in the T&C , and make "ignorance of the rules" fall upon it. If you still hold this argument afterwards, then your argument must then apply to the whole T&C, meaning that non-English speakers get absurd levels of leniency.

2) "It is rude" - It is rude because you call it that way. Some people consider the n-word and f-word casual words, but you consider it rude. Similarly, some people consider the plethora of uncensored vulgarities in the game rude, but you don't. All you have to do is define it as not rude, and it will not be rude.

Most players will die from typing out a few sentences to the KSer. Either they can be 2-4 shot in flat maps such as Himes, or for example, a Skele can snipe them off the rope if they aren't careful. Pet autopot is a sorry excuse because you're expecting everyone to have pet autopot, if that is the case, it should be provided to every new player free of charge. Furthermore, pet autopot is notoriously unreliable, so it is not an effective defense either way.

The two main options to solve this is a ~ccplz command or legalizing the term "cc plz", but I'd prefer #1. There will be fewer KS reports when the KSer knows that the mapowner can easily get evidence via an in-game 2 minute timer and automated messages proving that the KSer did actually KS. I understand that there are a lot of commands so far, but this one may prove exceptionally beneficial in the long run. Please give it some thought.

Still, I suggest you play as a lv 116 Paladin under clean gear disguising as a legit player while grinding at Skeles for 2-3 hours during 8x. Perhaps then you can sympathize with us having to do the "KS report procedure" every 10-15 minutes on such highly contested maps. Lv 150+ Bishops and AM KSers view such players as easy prey, and you bet they will KS you. It doesn't help that they are so much more mobile than a Paladin, either. Monsters technically 'die' as soon as mage ultimates are cast, so you won't be able to get 1 kill during the entire time.

 

We have processed countless reports on KSing with people who were able to follow the current report guidelines. I don't understand why this is such an issue for you in particular. There is no need to define slang like "cc plz" in the T&C as that's not an appropriate place to do so. Just like we don't allow you to vote more than once per day on the server and you agree to that in the T&C when you register an account, you are required to follow the report format if you want to report someone for KSing. You may feel voting once per day is some arbitrary amount which isn't fair, just like you may not feel it is fair to write the KS report in the way we ask. However, that is what we have found to work better and to create an overall better community for the server.

I don't know how many concurrent posts I need to say it in, but I'll say it once more, we will not be adding in any player commands for this. There will not be any fewer KS reports with your suggestion as a player can do exactly what the ~ccplz command would do in present day with the current set of commands available to them. Your two proposals in fact are acting as a counter to the whole reason we revamped the report format. The revamped report mandated more player interaction which would serve to not only educate the player KSing in the off-chance they didn't know they were KSing for one reason or another, as well as to reduce the number of reports GMs need to get involved with. I don't have any solid figures in front of me but it at least seems to me that the number of KSing reports has declined overall because now with players talking to one another, more conflicts are resolved between the two parties, rather than getting a staff member involved.

 

You're looking at it the wrong way. You're saying that we have to put up with hanging on a rope for at least 2 minutes every 10-15 minutes that a KSer pops out of no-where, type the same lines of chat over and over, and print screen the same various command outputs (~servertime 2x, ~mapowner 1-2x). Sure, some very patient people can put up with this, but busy people such as myself find it a big nuisance to have to type and printscreen all of that 4-6 times an hour. Usually, they leave right before 2 minutes so I can't be bothered to file a report on them, but that keeps building up to wasted time that could be spent for grinding, John, coupled with unnecessary stress.

Having to remind each and every individual KSer that KSing is illegal - I still disagree with you on this as it is simply contradictory to your "ignorant of the rules is not tolerated" rule. You discontinued the mob-vaccing analogy debate so I assume you have no further arguments against this.

Telling them that they are KSing - Sure you have to tell them this, but giving them 2 minutes to stop attacking and leave is utterly ridiculous. The average human response time is 0.3 seconds, by comparison, so you may want to center the grace period figure around there. Two minutes may not seem like a lot to you, but that adds up during a 3 hour grind session on a contested map during 8x exp.

The purpose of the command is not just to duplicate ~servertime and ~mapowner, it is useful for the following reasons:

1) Greatly reduces the chance of chatkill on maps that have no safe zones (Himes), or rather dangerous maps where mobs can snipe you and 2-shot you (Skeles / ToT to some degree)

2) Allows the player to continue to grind whatever monsters he can afterwards. This will encourage the KSer to leave the map faster as he knows the mapowner is willing to fight for his map.

3) Provides a standardized format for filing KS reports as the GMs will not have to judge what constitutes as a rude 'warning' to the KSer, and whether or not the warning was 'sufficient enough'. An alternative would be to give clear and precise guidelines on how to warn another player of his attempts at KSing and what is considered rude in such a warning; its up to you. Point is, all personal GM opinions need to be removed when it comes down to judging reports, and this helps prevent opinionated judgements. There needs to be a 'rubric' the playerbase can follow to ensure their screenshot evidence is accepted by all GMs.

Again, I've probably listed the above three points at least twice by now, but you keep ignoring them for the other contents of my posts. Please, before you disregard the command so hastily, at least give me your counter-arguments for each of the above. Lastly, if you think I'm exaggerating my figures about KS attempts per hour, before you disregard them, I would like you to put yourself in the vulnerable players' shoes by playing the above low-level, average-gear Paladin in Skeles for 2-3 hours during one of the next two 8x events.

Lastly, yes I accept the fact that I'll still have to file reports for KSing until the system is changed, and yes I accepted that and the rest of the T&C by signing up for an account, but that doesn't stop me from suggesting and arguing for a better alternative to the current KS report system. I'm still not quite sure why you think defining a commonly-used term is out of place in the T&C, but alright. Also, the ~ccplz command does initially warn the potential KSer the mapowner's wish - for them to leave map. The mapowner still needs to type the command, hence it is still his true wish for the said person to leave the map. John, you're somehow viewing it as though the mapowner has to respond back to the KSer should he want to argue with the mapowner, hence you don't want to automate the KS report system this way, but the mapowner's decision has been made, and the KSer must abide by it. There is absolutely no need for the KSer to argue further, so prove to me otherwise.

TLR: You want a two-way conversation between the mapowner and KSer, when realistically it simply needs to be one way warning and no further argument. It is the KSer's responsibility to read the rules. Mapowner's wish is final, and all in his map must abide by it.

Edit: Why not just give the mapowner the option to whitelist who can attack on his map? (~togglewhitelist; ~whitelist <playerIGN>) It will be nullified if he is not present in the map despite the 3 minute grace period, but will immediately return as soon as he is present in the map again and has not lost map ownership. This comes at the cost of slightly higher server RAM usage, but should be offset by reducing the number of KS reports to zero, which is a great trade-off if you ask me.

 

No, I just didn't want to continue a side disagreement, especially because your response that mob vaccers affect those who stumble onto the map was a very weak one. You and I both know that that really isn't an example of mob vaccing affecting other players. With KSing, the "aggressor" comes into your map and in a sense targets you by not going into an empty map instead. A mob vaccer (the aggressor) is already in the map and you happen to stumble upon them.

You misrepresent the 0.3 second figure. That time represents the time for a person to react to a visual stimulus (such as seeing a message pop on the screen). It takes more time for a person to read the message, comprehend its meaning, and type out a response, or take some other action (stop attacking, move their hands to the arrow keys to move to a portal to leave the map, etc.). If you can do all of the above in 0.3 seconds, maybe you should join staff as I think every 0.3 seconds was the rate Character Issue threads were coming in. I would have loved to have someone start processing each claim in 0.3 seconds

I don't think you understand the fact that not every server has a ~mapowner command. So yes, you get a message on your screen saying "This map is owned by X." Okay, play the role of a new player. What does that mean? That's why you need to explain it to them, because many have no idea. I'm not saying they have no idea KSing is not allowed on the server. I'm saying they don't even realize entire maps can be owned. A lot of people believe you are KSing only when you're killing a mob someone else is already attacking, leaving other parts of the map free for the taking. While that's not how things work in Royals, the player doesn't know that. So would it REALLY kill you to explain to them instead of acting anti-social and just use a command that automatically sends messages to them? Again, the reason for my refutation to implement such a command that you propose is simple: MapleRoyals is a community. We want you to interact with other players, engage in conversation, get to know others. If you don't want to do that, that's perfectly fine. But you will still be required to have some level of human interaction with other players if you want to get someone banned. Or, better still, don't report people at all, less work for the GMs

 

We already said we wouldn't be adding anymore unnecessary commands. Secondly, the new policy was put in place because people thought the old one was too harsh. So there is an exception to the rule. When the exception is trying to make the community more civil to each other, I don't see what the issue is. Furthermore, you keep trying to bring up the T&C, but at the end that there is a statement that 1. All GM decisions are final and binding. 2. We may use GM discretion for certain things that we believe necessary. Please stop fixating on just the "ignorance of the rules is not allowed" aspect and take the time to recognize that other rules/exceptions exist.

Of course, we are human too so we love to hear feedback (good or bad, as long as it is polite) which is why we have this section. The community said they wanted a nicer, more civil policy so that's what we tried to do. I don't think our new policy is completely unreasonable and it promotes a healthier communication between others.

 

"Unencessary commands" is a very subjective term. I have the right to present my argument for why they are not useless, and that is what I am doing.

Explaining the definition of KSing simply creates unnecessary work for the player. If new people don't understand what KSing means (mob-level vs map-level), then explicitly define that term in the T&C or elsewhere. You will be saving everyone now and everyone to come a great deal of trouble from having to explain what the definition of KSing is on this server.

John, do not catch me on a technicality and make a huge fuss over it. Point is, only a chimpanzee will need 2 minutes to respond to a mapowner's request. A reasonable amount of time for a homo sapien to react would be 15-20 seconds, won't you agree?

I respect your opinion on how you want Royals to be (community-oriented), but you keep acting as though I should greet and socialize with every person I meet on the sidewalk or else shut up about reporting KSers. Sure, my guild suffices for my community-interaction needs, however you're acting a tad ridiculous if you expect everyone to be as social and community-oriented as you are. I suggest you be open-minded and accepting of the different types of people your server, at least. I simply cannot be bothered to repeat the same lines of chat, filled with almost no sincerity, to try to get them to leave as quickly as possible. You can't possibly expect all of us to live up to your utopian dreams of an extra-ordinarily social community.

Once again, you still have not tackled my 3 arguments for the new command individually.

Lastly, I edited in a new suggestion quite late, most likely when you were writing your reply, nonetheless, here it is. Do tell me your thoughts on it:

 

I don't think the message came across very clearly, we are trying to get rid of most if not all player commands. This means that we are in no way interested in adding new ones, that means that it's little to no use to keep suggesting possible new commands.

 

Hold on, all? This server will immediately turn into a dystopian nightmare as soon as ~mapowner is removed. I hope you didn't literally mean all.

Nonetheless, its ultimately your pick between having to ever handle another KS report again, or stick to this goal of trying to remove all player commands for some reason. I believe my latest suggestion is a great solution that can negate the need for KS reports at the expense of the "community-based server" dream, but I personally believe it's a fair trade-off.

 

Okay, let's make it clear. No new player commands will be added to deal with KSing. So if you have a suggestion that you want to be seriously considered, please devise one that does not involve adding a new command.

 

I agree that civilized communication would be ideal. However, as Riuga mentions, sometimes its really difficult, if not impossible to fully explain KSing or "cc plz" in a civilized manner. I main a bishop and when I solo bosses such as Manon/Griffey/Right Pianus, it's impossible for me to type for than a couple of words without greatly increasing my chance of dying and hence automatically handing over the map. I would like to be civilized as much as possible, but in these situations I feel like there needs to be a easier way of getting the message across, and the burden should not be on the person taking offence to be polite.

That being said I don't really have any suggestions, I just wanted to give an additional example to support part of Riuga's argument.

 

Totally understand. But is it really possible for you to die in the time it takes you to type "Please leave this map, it is mine"? Then attack, then do ~mapowner, etc. and the rest of what is required to make a report? I see so many people do it, and go even further and have a full blown conversation with the KSer, that I find it hard to believe what we're asking for is too difficult for someone to do.

 

John, I believe you're being a bit impatient here. Could you at least explain why you're so against new commands against KSing? Let us keep this discussion civilized, and I ask that you not use the classic "because-I-said-so" as a cop-out.

I believe the quickest, most efficient, and most beneficial (to the GM team and to the player base) way to completely eliminate the problem of KSing, into oblivion, is simply to add new command(s).

I believe you and I can both agree that the KS reporting / handling system can be improved upon, and that the current one is close to perfect yet. If it isn't commands, then what is your suggested improvement for the system in the future?

@ Your latest post

Yes, it is very possible to die. I am a Lv 153 Drk that needs to maintain Berzerk, and that threshold is realistically only 7.5k on average (9.something-k theoretically, but impractical to maintain), due to mob damage, autopot, and the fear of overhealing. The mobs at Obv4 do 4k to 4.5k to me, so I am technically almost always 2-shot. Fact is, I have died multiple times there from attempting to type reasonably short messages to my guild. I believe a large factor is the 'panic factor' where you start panicking on how to exit the chatbox and pot yourself asap, and panic leads to death.