Greetings fellow MapleRoyals' players and staff members! I would like to raise an issue concerning the inequality in the Magician's class. As known, when a magician reaches his second job advancement , he must choose one of the following three paths: 1. The path of ice and lightning - where you will eventually become an I/L arch mage. 2. The path of fire and poison - where you will eventually become a F/P arch mage. 3. The path of holy skills - where you will eventually become a bishop. All three types of magicians share one great advantage - a great mobbing skill. Meteor Shower, Blizzard and Genesis all damage to up to 15 enemies with a high basic attack. I must say these amazing skills give magicians an advantage over other classes in the matters of farming and grinding. Despite these great mobbing skills, you won't see Arch Mages as frequently as you would see bishops. Bishops have skills such as holy symbol, and numerous party buffs. Such skills make bishops much more attractive to bossing, leeching and training. Additionally, none of the magicians have any DPS skills appropriate for bossing. As a result, while many players are recruiting bishops for boss runs and leeching, arch mages are left out for their being "unworthy". Looking into bossing: Mages are not good attackers, yet bishops are wanted for their party skills. Looking into leeching: Thanks to HS, bishops are much more attractive to leech buyers. To sum up: ARCH MAGES are not nearly equal to BISHOPS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So after seeing how bishops are superior to arch mages, most of the people choose to open a bishop instead of an AM. This impacts our game in several aspects: 1. The economy Both Meteor Shower 30 and Genesis 30 drop from Horntail. Yet, Genesis30 costs about 70 times more than MS30 (1.4b in contrast to 20m). This makes not only MS30, a horntail drop, worthy of only 20m, but also creates a big challenge for bishops to gain the mastery book. 2. Our MapleStory experience I'm looking at MapleRoyals as a nostalgic maplestory PS. One of the things I personally loved about MS before BB, is how the elements of nature are implemented. For example, a skill based on fire, would damage more a weak-to-fire enemy. Now, as arch mages are not really in our game, most elements don't have much value. The two AMs jobs both have unique and beautiful skills, and I'm simply sad to see how we gave up on them. SO... How about some solutions ? Well the following suggestions are just some ideas of mine to balance the scales between bishops and AMs. I'll be more than glad to hear your suggestions and comments about my solutions. Please note that some of my suggestions can only be changed by wz edits, which are done on our server. 1. Party Buffs Why not give Arch Mages some useful party buffs? Maybe buffs that have to do with elements, or attacking speed (such as SI)? That way AMs will be more attracting for party bosses, closing the gap between the bishops who have HS, dispel, door and res. 2. Boosting some of the attacks- ruled out If we want to leave party buffs for bishops, we could upgrade AMs' attack skills. Not speaking of Meteor Shower and Blizzard, but of skills like Paralyze which could be great bossing skills. That way AMs will be decent attackers at Zakum or HT. This way we will have our desired balance: bishops would stay great party members and AMs would become decent attackers. 3. Swiss cheese time If we don't want to mess with the skills, here is an alternative solution. (image was taken from our library). We could make the Swiss Cheese available for AMs only and untradeable. This way we are giving AMs an option to become much stronger than bishops for short periods. Thank you all for reading this post , let me know what you are thinking
Changing magicians too far away from the original intent removes the concept of nostalgia, on which the server is based. Regarding some of your other points regardless: Arch mages totally do exist and do take advantage of elemental weaknesses. In any case, you can't add value to elemental weaknesses by increasing the ratio of mages - only by increasing the number of enemies weak to them - something that definitely would not happen. Making AMs viable to boss like an attacker makes them extremely overpowered - they trade bossing for grinding. Also note that in most situations the bishop isn't getting exp so their *only* purpose in going is to make money off splits - something that is inconsistent. AM's can still make a fair amount of money off of grinding (I won't deny that this does pale in comparison to splits money) Bishops aren't being brought to bosses for their damage so making ssiws cheese only available to AMs won't really accomplish anything. Not to mention it's not exactly a common commodity. There *are* plans to balance them against each other in the new source: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/open-beta-launch.36647/ To sum up my thoughts including but not limited to the above: Bishops having HS makes them overly valuable compared to all classes, not just AMs Bishops having a money advantage from splits is slightly manufactured, given the price fixing of multiple HT books that were, not long ago, falling in price due to a normal free market economy. Making AM's able to do an attackers job completely obsoletes most classes from being anything other than mules. The class imbalance isn't being ignored just because we haven't changed anything right now. As such, I don't see much viability in your suggestions. Thanks for providing feedback!
Just wanted to say that grinding while selling leech is often equivalent to boss runs as it is not rare to get bad drops in a boss run. As such, the money payout often evens out.
There are a lot of classes on this game that need buffs. The thing about arch mages is that buffing them would be a very very complicated task. Would people want them to be good at bossing or mobbing. Most people would say mobbing (I'd assume). There could be an increase in mobs that are weak to fire/ice, but that doesn't really matter because 1 hitting stuff other than ToT isn't too much of a task anymore. What I would personally suggest is to give arch mages the skill "Elemental reset". This is a skill that blaze wizards have in v83, so I would assume it would be possible to give arch mages the skill, could be wrong. What the skill does is it completely negates all elemental strengths/weaknesses. So a fire poison could go gobies if they wanted to. Or even go to oblivion. But at the same time, you would be doing regular damage against mobs weak to fire/ice. But you can always just not use the buff while killing those. Another thing that could happen is that new maps could be added in the new source. These maps could require fairly high damage to kill efficiently. They could possibly even be strong to holy. Something definitely needs to change to make arch mages more than just a nerfed bishop. But I don't think buffing bossing is the way to go.
I appreciate all the comments guys I just wanna point out that this post is not about comparing AMs to other classes, but comparing AMs to bishops. As ImCanadian said, the issue here is the AMs are simply a nerfed version of bishops. When I suggested buffing bossing skills I only meant to make AMs decent attackers, in order for them to be accepted to bossing teams. I never meant for them to be nearly as good attackers as BMs or NLs. Anyways that was only possible suggestion of mine for trying to to balance the scales here. I would be glad to hear more suggestions and solutions to this issue.
Mages were never meant for bossing. I would never want to see them be good at bossing and this is from someone who has mages. Mages are good at grinding, other attacker characters not so much. It would be very unfair to be good at both. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/suggestion-buff-f-p-and-i-l-arch-mages.20566/ It has also been brought up already. Please do not make duplicate threads.
There's a long, loooong thread somewhere on the forum with a debate regarding this topic. I believe its on the 'Open Beta' forum. But yeah, Bishops are way better and - not to mention - fairly easy to grind to 120. However, I disagree with your ideas. You see, by allowing Arch Mages some bossing tools, you'd be making them op. As Aaron pointed out, they trade bossing for grinding so they shouldn't really be that good when bossing. My unpopular opinion (and something that won't happen, as it has been stated) is nerfing Ele Wands for Bishops. What would you get from this nerf? Angry bishops. AMs become a better alternative for high level leeching. Say Bishops take 3-4 hits to KO Petris while AMs take 2 (example). Level 64 wands and staves will be more popular. I like this, personally. AMs will be getting some buffs in the new source and we'll be able to 1 hit stuff earlier in game. I'm not certain this is the best solution as our end-game is pretty much when we can one hit petri or similar mobs but yeah, it's what we've got.
I'm glad this issue has not been ignored at our beta forum. Let's say we ruled out completely the option of buffing AMs' bossing skills. We are still left with the obvious issue of bishops vs. AMs. I am glad to hear your solutions on how we can balance this situation(either by nerfing bishop or by upgrading AMs).
Would there be a way to create an option for archmages to "trade" grinding for bossing? Like, a job quest that lets them sacrifice their ultimate for a buff to their other 4th job skills (or even a different 4th job class option with more powerful non-ultimate skills and no meteor/blizz.) I'd love a mage that could train and boss without ultimates, but I don't know how viable it would be to code such a thing.
That would never be implemented as it would be way out of line of what mages should be like during this version. Furthermore, we try to keep things as realistic as possible (imo anyway) so adding custom features like that wouldn't be in line with what we want for the server. Bottom line really is that mages aren't meant to boss. They are meant to grind. I know some people bring their friends, but ultimately mages will not be given bossing capabilities because 1. They weren't meant to 2. Because that would make them ridiculously op. If you guys want an easier time finding boss runs, I suggest making an attacker character like everyone else instead of asking for mage buffs because from my knowledge, they will never be given bossing capabilites that make them viable attackers. It's not impossible to find runs that will take AMs either, just find a guild that will allow AMs on guild runs or go on point runs.
The initial post, and many of the replies afterwards suggested buffing AM damage, hence the reply. I still think that they shouldn't be given party buffs for bossing because that isn't what AMs were for. My original point still stands. AMs get to 1 shot maps much faster than Bishops and can 1 shot at maps that bishops can't. Along with the minor buffs that AMs will be getting in the new source, I don't think they should be getting anything special or custom content (and this is from a person who has both AM and Bishop). You also ignored the part where I said custom content for skills are not the direction MapleRoyals is going in. It is trying to create a realistic v62 with minor v83 content and nowhere did AMs have party buffs for bossing iirc.
You are relating to a post from almost a year and a half ago which was about requesting buff to AM damage. I understand your opinion and reasons about custom party buffs and bossing, but we don't have to do any of these. In this post, we are trying to make sure AMs are not worthless next to bishops. Right now THEY ARE. I explained above the reasons for that. So , let's figure out how we solve this without making AMs op/custom. Someone here for example suggested giving AMs the option to give up meteor shower for bossing skills.
They aren't useless though They excel at what they're supposed to do, which is grind. A bishop is meant to party play and be a supportive character. I don't really know how much clearer I can be, AMs were never meant to be a bossing character, hence I don't think it would be possible to make any of these changes without custom content (which we wouldn't do). Again, I understand it might be frustrating to not be able to boss, but it is incredibly unfair to other people who give up grinding abilities for bossing ones. I have attackers, AM, bishop and I would never insist on bossing with my AM unless I was requesting a pendant (in which case I would be more of a looter than an attacker). Attackers aren't very good at grinding like AMs so bossing is the only way for many attackers to level. Having the best of both worlds just doesn't seem fair at all in my book.
Keep in mind this server is trying to stay faithful to a v62 Maplestory, in which each class was unique in its own way. Allowing an in-game option to completely change a class' skillset is not going to work because it would change the vision of mages in this iteration of Maplestory. There isn't any practical reason to overhaul an entire class' skillset just because a minority of individuals think that the class isn't good enough to do certain things. I know AMs don't have HS, bless, res, or any of the skills for which Bishops are held in value for. But honestly, AMs have certain advantages that Bishops do not have, and you seem to be overlooking these entirely. Please try to see the big picture here and understand that there is a certain class dynamic that makes v62 Maple a unique experience for everyone.
AMs were never meant to be a bossing character. EVERYBODY understands that. Stop repeating that same argument when we are speaking about something completely different. Arch mages can grind. Bishops can grind, they are easier to lvl(Hs), can boss, make more money off leeches, can door, etc.... So, when someone gets to his 2nd job advancement he will pick bishop because AMs are useless next to bishops. Let's change that. How? NOT BY MAKING THEM A BOSSING CHARACTER.
Bishops were meant for party play. There is no logical reason to take these away from bishops when this is what the character was meant to do o_o. Arch mages can make an HS mule and sell leech at high tier places for better money and faster because they can 1h much faster than bishops. HS mule means you get a door too. I like my AM because it does superior damage (or it will later on once it's the same level) and because I can already 2 shot maps like Ulu 2 with level 5 blizzard. Many people have AMs and enjoy them, me included. I don't quite understand what you're talking about when you say no one will pick them.
You're right to be a little upset about AMs compared to Bishops, there are definitely gradual things that can be done such as buffing skill attack %, changing meteor shower and blizzard skill delays slightly, etc. to be more on par with a Bishop offensively. These are reasonable changes that could address your issue. But in your OP and the rest of this thread, every suggestion you made has been impossible. The things that make Bishops "better" in your eyes (being able to door, ability to HS, etc.) are things that are uniquely for a Bishop, and cannot be given to AMs without changing the class drastically. If you love the AM class, why not simply respect it for its unique advantages and disadvantages? If, for example, I try to compare my Shadower's mobility to a NL's (lack of Flash Jump, for instance), of course I'll be upset. I love my Shadower for what it is, you could think the same way about the AM.
Just wanted to also note that AMs are going to be given a slight damage buff in the new source so they will be able to one shot maps even faster than bishops. I believe @Plenty once calculated that a well funded FP could 1 shot petris at level 130, but I'm not quite sure about the calculations.
I happen to play a paladin, marksman, f/p mage and i/l mage! 4 Characters that a lot of players consider to be on the weaker side, but I still play them because I find them fun. Personally I don't want to see any of those 4 characters change much if at all, except for maybe a slight damage boost for paladins but even then I'd play it even if we don't give them a boost. I know some players want to see their characters become more than they can be, but please also consider there are the players that just play the character because they enjoy it for what it is and don't want to see any of the changes you listed above. I am one of those, and thus I would be slightly saddened if we make unnatural changes to arch mages.
