Who said arch mages cant boss? :^) Spoiler: ayy all me The only limit is your imagination #archmagelivesmatter
Saying arch mages are going to be able to 1 shot faster in the new source seems like an incredibly bad argument. The issue right now isn't the damage in which arch mages deal. It's the fact that the maps that arch mages are superior to bishops at (mainly Petris) is barely better than skeles. Being able to 1 shot faster doesn't make arch mages much better. I personally think there needs to be a map that is significantly better than skeles. That both arch mages classes can train at and that bishops can't. I do agree that arch mages should be a farming classes. They weren't necessarily "meant to be a farming class" due to their bossing skills being buffed heavily soon after v86. But this is v62, so that's what we're stuck with. Clearly the staff isn't against adding maps into the game that weren't in v62. So I don't see why a new map that arch mages could excel in wouldn't have a possibility of being added.
Adding a map that allows for more even exp gain between all mage classes is a good and do-able idea, compared to the ones states previously, I second something like this.
ToT is good enough but I agree with you. Arch mages are clearly not as good as bishops and there's not a lot of room to manoeuvre in order to make them better. As I stated, I'd add in the -10% penalty for Bishops using Ele wands because that'd mean Arch Mages could dominate the high level grinding maps (and leech). Since this won't happen, I guess adding some new maps (new source) with high levelled ice/fire-weak or simply high HP mobs, then it could balance the gap a bit more. Bottomline, I believe the main concern (as an arch mage) is we don't get much perks by picking our jobs. Bishops can do almost everything we can do. Grinding (119>): A low level ice lightning is very fun and easy to grind. A fire poison will be hell. A cleric will be hell. In the mid 50s you can try GS. Ice lightning does okay and clerics get OP exp here. Fire posion can try poisoning high level mobs for fast exp but it isn't as good as everyone makes it out to be. When you hit level 80, a priest knows he has to AFK his way to 120. A fire posion mage has to poison cloud their way to 120 and a IL mage might have a bad time to 120. Grinding (120+): Arch Mages deal more damage BUT Bishops have HS. Eventually.. AMs get to 1 hit petri. Possibly around level 160-175. FP could try RoR and IL could try O4. Bishops get to 1 hit Skele (and provide HS). They could 1 hit petri too but it requires a lot of magic. Bishops get to boss, sell leech easily and leech their own characters with ease. AMs don't boss, sell cheaper leech and leeching is a nightmare without a HS mule. HS mule is basically 75% of what a Priest has to offer so I doubt it can be considered a 'solution' for the lack of balance. I do have one and its nice to have, sure; but when you're leeching your low level character, it turns out to be quite annoying as you have to switch clients, maps and everything to get HS (and it doesn't even last very long) so yeah.
I think a lot of people are underselling Arch Mages fun capabilities. Clerics and Priests may just be the most boring classes IMO. Their skills are plain, however useful they may be. I/L has a great time in the 2nd job, and F/P have one of the most unique and interesting game plan for late 2nd job and throughout 3rd job. Poison training is one-of-a-kind, as is fighting skeles at level 85. I like the changes proposed in the new source, but I really don't think more needs to be done. They may not be overall as good as Bishops, but the power gap is nowhere near that of Heroes and Paladins, and to a lesser extent Bowmaster and Marksman.
I would actually be okay with like a 10% nerf for genesis while using Ele Wands. 25% seems way too high, but 10% seems to me like a pretty fair tradeoff since AMs should be doing more dmg than a bishop. I wouldn't really agree with messing with mobs/weaknesses though because this is the way the mobs worked in GMS
As an AM player, I think they are fine. As Jeen said, it would be incredibly unfair to be good at both bossing and grinding. That's why the only thing that annoys me is how broken Bishops are, because they are good at both, and on top of that get to make money off leech without sacrificing exp. I also don't think there is anything that can be changed about it without severely impacting the game. A small damage nerf would just make the 1h happen slightly later, it doesn't really take away from how broken they are. They will always good at everything unless you take HS or Genesis away.
If mages could use the big bang glitch, then arches could finally compete with bishops. But no, Duku's are not weak to fire . Maps that duku's are located in also have a terrible spawn rate so they aren't a viable spot to train at. Mini dungeon doesnt work. So sed
Please keep in mind that when a bishop does go to a boss, they don't get any exp so it isn't like they're doing dmg. They are basically like an HS mule for the attackers.
As someone who made a Bishop first, and then later quit it, and made an I/L, i can tell you not everyone looks at the benefits of a Bishop as the end all be all final decision. I personally cannot justify spending almost a Bill just to try and learn Gen20 which has a 70% chance to work, and then have it potentially fail. And I have to do that again with Gen30 which has an even lesser chance to work. No thank you. I'm also not a person who likes the idea of just selling leeching leech to make money. Id prefer to grind it out by farming on my own time (Cant wait to 1shot farm Oblivion maps <3). I dont care for leech, I'd rather we didnt have so it common on here, but thats just my opinion. Most Bishops will never be able to 1 Shot Petri's or anything after it Unless your @Shiyui. Id much rather play something that's significantly cheaper to get books for, and then be able to basically 1 shot everything in the game with half the funding I would otherwise need for a Bishop. Overall, my one wish was people on Royals just being a slight bit less worried about getting top notch XP all the time. We're all here to have fun. Its almost taboo for an AM to ask to be brought on a HT run. And that shouldnt be the case. They can absolutely use the upgrade from the HTP, yet its so extremely difficult to get on a HT run.
Hopefully I introduce a few new points and solutions. These discussions tend to repeat the same things over and over, so bear with me. <3 It’s true that AM are able to 1 hit petris sooner than bishops are able to 1 hit skeles. 1 hit petri exp is also marginally better than 1 hit skeles, about a 15m exp per hour difference. As far as grinding, I argue that AM have an advantage over bishops that goes beyond just the exp per hour. Skele map competition is far higher than petri map competition. Skele map selling poses a bar to entry for bishop grinding, and there’s the stress about having someone to hold your map if you have to go afk and there’s the drama with map stealing. Rarely do I ever see petri map selling (excepting the 2x exp and 2x drop events), so both grinding and leech selling is more accessible for AM than it is for bishops. People will smega B>1 hit petri or skele leech, no map. A bishop who has no skele map will be hard pressed to find one to sell to that smega buyer, but an AM can often easily teleport to petris, get a map, and get that buyer. AM are more able to grind and sell leech at their leisure. Of course, AM need HS mules, but once the logistics of multiclienting are figured out, it’s not too hard to alt tab into the HS mule client, press a button to HS, and alt tab back to their AM. I will concede that AMs selling leech may have a harder time than a bishop selling leech. Some people believe skele leech is the highest exp per hour, or that AM leech doesn’t have HS or the HS mule leeches exp. However, I daresay that people who are veterans to the game and understand its mechanics will favor AMs to leech their characters. AM leech is both faster and more on-demand since bishops at skeles may be busy with other customers and AM sellers can often just get a map whenever they so like. As a side note, yes it is possible for a bishop to 1 hit petris, but that requires 1591 magic. I see AMs as a solo play class. They excel at leveling and making consistent meso by leeching. They’re cheap to fund since the demand for their SB are low, and they require little investment. They’re not a party class. Most, if not all, non-mage classes rely on bossing for exp. It’s important to note here that bishops do not get exp from bossing except -maybe- Zak, and that’s really only a trivial amount. AM are unique in that they’re able to hit 200 as fast or as slow as they like. To make them good at bossing when they’re the best grinders in the game is unfair precisely because non-mage classes don’t really have that grinding option. O4 is very slow for non-mages, and the majority of non-mage classes don’t bother with O4 and instead level exclusively with bossing. I think the issue with bishops being good at grinding as well as bossing is grounded in how bishops are entitled to bossing splits. However, as a bishop who HTs -a lot-, HT is a gamble as far as making meso. MW 20 and Gen 30 are the books that yield significant profit, with TT 30 paying for attackers’ apples and my owls. Blizz 30 and Zerk 30 are hardly worth the time, and all other books are just left on the ground. On the rare occasion, you might get a boom, but often, you get a bust. HT takes a lot of time that could have been spent leeching. Assume two hours from getting everyone together to killing HT, longer if the party is weak or people dc or die without res being up. Two hours of leech is at minimum 120m. Without MW 20 or Gen 30 dropping, you're better off having sold leech during that time. If MW 20 drops, you get about 250m with a 6 way split and if Gen 30 drops, you get about 166m with a 6 way split. That's 130m and 46m more compared to leeching, respectively. If those two books don't drop, you lose meso. Zak is even more of a gamble. Gen 20 is very, very rare. And as far as Krex, bishops only go to loot the ring. And speaking of boss drops, yes, bishops do get HTPs, eggs, Zhelms, and Krex rings for free. But this is because they contribute to killing the boss. AMs have access to these things, but it requires more work. For HTP and egg, AM can join point runs or ask their guild or buddy list to carry them. Oftentimes, HTPs go to waste since the squad members will have already egged and the eggs themselves are just collected as souvenirs. As far as Zhelms and Krex rings, ask to come with your HS mule and in exchange for your mule’s HS, ask for looting Zhelms and Krex rings. People only look for bishops on Zak and Krex runs because of HS anyway; most of a bishop’s other functions are extras. HS is the single most important thing attackers care about. Because again, they rely on bossing for exp. As I reread this thread, I’ll address various points I noticed. @tuvvy I explained why AM are superior to bishops for grinding and leech selling and I offered a solution for AMs being taken to boss runs, at least for boss equip drops if not for splits. As far as book prices, the utility of bishops is somewhat balanced out by how expensive their skill books are. For the person who enjoys solo game play and the grind to 200, AM are a far better choice. I’m not sure how the rarity of AM diminish the value of elemental interactions in this game. Elemental game mechanics still exist whether AM do or not. No one gave up on the elemental aspect of the game. I disagree with your solutions. Custom content party buff skills for AM ruin nostalgia. And AM becoming viable attackers is unbalanced with their grinding capabilities. As for Ssiws Cheese, the item is event only and expensive. It has limited usage in either bossing or grinding and for the mage who wants a pot to increase their magic, Onyx Apples are far better. Limiting Ssiws Cheese to AMs only would only be an arbitrary, peculiar restriction since the item’s usage is so obscure. @ImCanadian I agree that adding maps and more content is a good idea, but it’s still to be discussed exactly what maps, what mobs, what spawn rate and exp, etc. I think such an idea deserves its own thread, so I’ll leave out my suggestions for the time being. I strongly support the idea of AM getting Elemental Reset. AMs are hindered more than helped by their elemental attacks. Elements should be an AM’s asset. And currently, AM have very few advantages in endgame grinding spots. Petris are neutral to both ice and fire. Oblivion mods are neutral to ice and resist fire. The only significant beneficial things about AM elemental interactions in endgame are that RoR mobs and Dark Wyverns in HT are weak to fire and yet resist ice. Both fire and ice are resisted elements at gobies, so goby farming is really only viable on bishops. I also argue that goby farming is healthy for the economy since, with SI, it’s more meso per hour than 1 hit petri or skele leech. Making gobies accessible for AM reduces the economic inequality between AMs and bishops and I daresay makes mage classes more enjoyable to play since there’s no stress of having a leecher with goby farming. So the Elemental Reset idea only makes AMs more viable without making them overpowered. The current benefits of elemental interactions remain and the numerous limitations that seem to be exclusive to AMs and not bishops are nullified. In such a way, the disparity between AMs and bishops is fairly reduced. @Ayer Putting a penalty on bishops using elemental wands is a suggestion that I clearly remember Katsuraka ruling out. I can’t find it now, but she said if the administration were to implement such a change, they would have done it after the wipe. I’m personally against the idea, but it’s not worth discussing since it has been confirmed that it won’t happen. I’m not concerned with pre fourth job balancing discussion because I’m focused on how to make the classes balanced at endgame. AM do not sell cheaper leech if they have HS mules. 1 hit skele and 1 hit petri with HS leech are both 65m-60m. HS mules are a huge part of the solution for balancing AMs with bishops. I find that most AMs have no problem using their HS mules. However, for whatever inconvenience it poses, this is the cost of making an AM that is far cheaper in terms of skill books than a bishop. Assuming Gen 20 and Gen 30 both past first try, that’s 2b in skill boks invested in a bishop. AMs are very cheap to fund and making an HS mule is a time rather than meso investment. It’s a give-and-take. @Aethern AMs make money off leech without sacrificing exp if they have HS mules. In fact, with an HS mule, the AM gets HS bonus exp with a leecher. o-o
I just wanted to say that from my experience mesos is probably on par with 1h skele/petri leech, but definitely not more. I also think resistances should be left alone 1. Because they're supposed to be that way 2. Because many people who choose to go to gobies do so because they don't want to sell leech. For example, I have never sold leech and I never plan to. It's nice to know that I have an alternative location to make the same amount or almost the same amount of money without having to leech. I also disagree because petris is very much an endgame advantage that AMs have. It is almost impossible for bishops to 1H them and AM can start one hitting around 16x iirc. Also, I believe ILs can 1H Oblivion maps (correct me if I'm wrong) but the best a bishop will be able to do is 2 hit.
Whether or not I/L can 1-hit Ob4 specifically is still untested but something Plenty was planning on doing whenever he could finish his wand (which I believe he still doesn't have a perfect of). But mathematically it should be possible.
In theory, an IL AM will 1 hit O4 with 1739 or 1740 magic, depending on how much int they have. Perfect lukless mage gear, assuming no chaos, gives a magic of 1775 magic with MW 20 and echo. So it's doable, although very, very difficult. I wouldn't consider this possibility to really factor into how AMs are balanced with bishops. There are few people who main mages, fewer still who main AMs, fewer again who main IL AMs, and fewer yet again who would put so much funding into their character. It'll be quite an accomplishment once someone achieves it though. (Old SS as the calculator currently does not work as it should).
Was that calculated with the current IL damage? If yes then it might be more likely to do it in the new source, though the ToT spawn is changing so might not be worth it as a mage.
It's just a small objection, but petris are not an option for grinding as a bishop. 1 hitting petris as a bishop is much like 1 hitting O2 or O4 as an IL AM. Very few will do it (less than ten or so mages have accomplished these things to my recollection), so for the mage players at large, it doesn't affect them. I continue to advance my support for AMs getting Elemental Reset. At present, their elemental attributes are more of a detriment than an asset, and it's bad character design to have the core concept hinder rather than help the class. I can't emphasize how terrible it is that the entire foundation of a class pushes people away from them rather than draws them in. It deserves to be fixed. The Elemental Reset idea has very little impact on nostalgia and I believe it's implementation is worthwhile. Mobs will continue to have their elemental resistances for other classes, and AMs will be exclusive in this ability to nullify their elemental attributes. Such a solution affects non-AM classes very little and it only adds to the draw of making AMs. The skill would open up much more of the Maple world to AMs for both farming and grinding and has the potential to make endgame training more party-oriented. Bishops are largely concentrated in skeles for grinding, and AMs may find a niche role in duoing O2 or O4 with attacker grinders. Currently, only IL AM are able to do so, but with the Elemental Reset idea, so will FP AM. FP AM who grind at ToT are limited to RoR, and granting them access to Oblivion only makes ToT more worthwhile to go to. As a result, AMs are more integrated into the endgame community. At the present time, AM gameplay is largely solo, and I have the feeling that a lot of AM grievances expressed here are founded in a feeling of being left out. It's easy to say that AM should ask friends to take them on boss runs, and making ToT more viable for AMs helps those friendships form and indirectly solves the AM bossing inclusion issue. Increasing AM access to ToT isn't even for AMs' sake alone. With how much effort the staff put into coding ToT, few people train there. Attacker classes who duo grind at ToT get far more exp per hour with a 2 hit mage with SI than with another attacker. With Elemental Reset, AMs will be viable and -actively- sought out for grinding sessions with these attacker ToT grinders. AMs will have a party play purpose that draws more attackers to ToT and makes ToT maps actually active. The only objection I can think of to the Elemental Reset idea is that it goes against nostalgia. So to anyone who may think that, I ask why. Again, the idea is restricted to only AMs and elemental interactions for all other classes, including bishops, would remain the same. It has so many benefits to AMs and little if any at all cons to non-AMs. I'd love a discussion on this idea and I want people to seriously consider their thoughts on having it added in game. I calculated it with Blizzard 30 having 600 magic, consistent with the new source, but the calculation was done with Elemental Amplification 30 giving 135% magic rather than the 140% magic it would in the new source. As a result, I think the likelihood will only increase marginally. Hope that helped!
