My 2 Cents About Real World Trading in MapleRoyals

So after having been banned for soliciting RWT (not afraid to admit it), I just want to provide my 2 cents for any players or staff who may be reading this, even though the words of someone being banned may carry no weight here, I believe someone should experience something to have a greater understanding of it, and in my case, that is the subjugation of the rules that may or may not exist. As a disclaimer this is not an attempt to be a ban appeal.

As someone who is aspiring to work in Human Resource Management and working to obtain a MBA, its a must to have clear guidelines of what is encouraged and what is not, as well as the penalty for breaking such outlined rules in the workplace. I encourage the MapleRoyals staff to be more transparent in these guidelines. Not to make this sound like a ban appeal (just feel like my case is the easiest to use as an example), I've been banned for soliciting Real World Trading on another website, where they were able to find correlations between my account on the other site and my account here...

Knowing that real world trading was frowned upon, it's nearly impossible to tell how much of an offense it is. Per Game Terms and Conditions, there is a list of things that are not allowed, ranging from 3 day bans to permanent bans. While it says Real World Trading is not allowed, the penalty of such action is not clearly defined, as there is no reference towards "Real World Trading" other than saying "Don't buy or sell items/mesos for real world currency." in the TL; DR version, while most of the other offenses are properly detailed with references to how long the ban length is. But I didn't get banned for Real World Trading. I got banned for solicitation of real world trading, which is something else entirely. Solicitation of something illegal more often than not in the terms of the law, carries a lesser penalty, as no harmful action was actually done yet. However Solicitation of Real World Trading itself is nowhere to be found in the Game Terms and Conditions which we are supposed to read before playing to have a clear understanding of those rules.

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So here's the argument... Why should solicitation of Real World Trading carry a permanent ban punishment, especially if it isn't outlined in the Game Terms and Conditions? I'm not saying it shouldn't be bannable, but in comparison to other offences, it seems not as damaging to the game. Such offences are:

• harassment, vulgarity, or threatening other players
• pretending to be a staff member
• glitch abuse
• botting

What all of these offences have in common is that they all directly affect player experience. Seeing someone botting, glitch abusing, having someone be vulgar to you, or having someone pretend to be a staff member to potentially trick you into doing something you'll regret, all seemingly carry a much higher stake in player experience versus solicitation of real world trading (especially if the source of which offense was on another website). Also, what all of these offences have in common is that they also carry a first time punishment of a 3 day ban.

So while someone can pose as a staff member, bot, glitch abuse, or even go to an extreme of telling a player to go kill himself and bully him, they can know that if its their first offense, they will only get a 3 day ban if they read the rules... Whereas someone still reads the rules and who solicits real world trading will receive a ban without knowing that it's even permanent.

Using my ban appeal as an example... Link: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/banned-for-soliciting-rwt.76394/

I tried to explain my reasoning for why I felt the ban was far-left. After my appeal, the ultimate reasoning by the staff was the use of a quote in another ban appeal a few months ago...

"After discussing the possibilities of introducing a rule change for Attempted Real World Trade (and not following up on it) we eventually decided that we will not create any loopholes and that there's no excuse for this type of chat in-game. Any attempt to RWT shall be treated like the offense itself meaning even solicitating to give/obtain any currency or items unrelated to mapleroyals for mapleroyals mesos or mapleroyals goods will resolve in a permanent ban from the game."

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/ban-appeal.68983/#post-362706

That's actually a good quote and good reasoning, however it's been completely mistimed and not used properly. If anyone wanted to know that solicitation of real world trading is not allowed since it hasn't been defined in the GT&C, it's completely illogical and unsound to use an outdated post that dates back months ago as your main point of reference to uphold the permanent ban of someone.
The quote by Tim was used against another player named RedTubes or a.k.a Doochis in game, who was also banned for solicitation of RWT, but the offence was actually in-game. While it's sound reasoning to not tolerate the solicitation of real world trading and real world trading itself, this was used after the fact. Redtubes actually had a legitimate defense... which was basically "Why am I getting this information now...?". After the fact she got caught for breaking a rule that is pretty much non-existent and not even touched upon in the Game Terms and Conditions, why should she or anyone else be subject by this "ghost rule" that seemingly only the staff knows about?

My advice to staff? Make sure that the rules are crystal clear and always update the Terms and Conditions, as well as give a fair warning to players about rules that don't exist on those Terms and Conditions.


TL; DR

It's completely unfair and unethical to permanent ban someone for breaking a rule that really doesn't exist according to Game Terms and Conditions (Solicitation of Real World Trading). Rules that carry the stake of a permanent ban should be properly outlined in the Game Terms & Conditions.

My solution?... If a player breaks a rule that isn't properly defined or even listed in the main place where staff wants you to read about those rules, they should be given a fair warning, and even a temporary ban if they deem necessary, and right after the fact, the Game Terms & Conditions should be updated with that new rule.

Thanks for reading, hope you have a wonderful day

 

Considering that you don't really need to spend real-life currency in this game to get good equips and stuff, I do feel that it feels like you are abusing the game for your own benefit. Unlike the original MapleStory servers in current times which you do need to spend a shi* ton of money to get it to Legendary and godly stats, selling the hard earned and invested item to other players for real-life money is definitely viable in my inspired opinion.

All you got to really do to get good in this game is literally vote 2 win, as you might familiarize this with the infamous/famous term of pay2win which doesn't really relate to royalers. So I guess since you are not being beneficial to the founder of MapleRoyal and his employee/staff but just for yourself then I can surely see why they do not appreciate such an act which happens in these secret deals.

Players in the original MapleStory server like GMS who does such transaction are indirectly helping Nexon to gain more income/nett profit/ revenue or in layman's term money. That is why the GMs there are closing both eyes even though such instances happen all the time.

 

even on officiall servers its against their ToS to buy/sell accounts and or items.

The worst thing about rwt is that it ruins the economy for everyone, people get mesos out of nowhere buy everything they want and can easily outbid players with hard earned mesos. Its quite frankly ridicolus how high certain items sell for to people who have played for like 2-3months and doesnt even have any character that they possibly could've made that sort of mesos with. Then eventually they get banned taking another rare item off the server.

edit:
after taking another look in t&c I think these two rules is relevant to your ban (not sure if #28 is actually relevant but worded slightly different it could be more obvious that it includes solicitation)

 

I actually agree to an extent, I scoured through the T&C & there was nothing about simply soliciting but I feel like you know that it's wrong to do that anyways & is ultimately up to them on what to do with you, regardless of how far back it happened, it still shows intent. I'd love to see some insight from a higher-up on what they think about the ruling on you, since it wasn't in the rules per se. I don't know I guess the game does hold a high standard to players checking the T&C, but this kind of undermines that whole logic. On a side note, I do believe that RWT destroys the game just as much as botting, don't try to downplay RWT as a small thing, because it isn't. On that side note, I think that along with intent to RWT, they probably just don't want someone who has ever even thought about, let alone posted on another forum to sell / buy mesos or items on here.

 

As someone who obviously has a functioning brain, you should know right from wrong without having to sift through the t&c with a fine comb.

There is no comparison to RedTubes' ban--hers was completely ridiculous and unjust.

 

It's quite obvious why rwt is not allowed, because you're purchasing in-game currency with real life currency, in other words it's pay 2 win, something this server pridefully advertises as not being (and rightfully so). If this server allowed rwt we'd start seeing people who just started the game with godly end game equips that otherwise take over hundreds of hours of hard work in a matter of seconds with little to no effort. Sure everybody has an equal chance of doing it but your real life income shouldn't be the source of your success here, it's unfair and ruins the integrity of the game.

Your post does bring up another topic of discussion however, if the gms are taking sources outside of the game as evidence to ban players, in this case busting yo ass for soliciting rwt on another website, should they also accept evidence outside of the game (Skype chat logs for example) to ban players that clearly show breaches to the T&C like scamming?

 

And I completely agree with you, however both rules are completely invalid here. Again we're debating the difference between solicitation and outright doing the deed... Both of which are completely different. I've been banned for solicitation, not doing real world trading, so there is no rule on that. Which strikes out 19.
28 is invalid as well, as it relates to an actual rule being broken and making a believable claim. "I'm buying mesos", and "I bought mesos" are two completely different statements here, as the latter of which is the "believable claim" number 28 is referring upon. Solicitation of RWT is without a doubt non-existent in the gt&c.

Forgive me if it came across that way, but I'm not trying to downplay rwt. I know it's a grave offense and I'm completely at fault, but the point I was trying to make is that if soliciting is such a grave offence, deserving of a permanent ban, there should be no excuse that it's completely absent from those terms and conditions we are supposed to read.

Not familiar with the situation, but the comparison I'm making between me and Redtubes (taking context out of the equation) is that we've both been banned for soliciting, a rule that doesn't exist. Putting personal bias aside, If you believe that a permanent ban for solicitation is ridiculous and unjust for Redtubes, then it's the same for both parties.

I appreciate your opinion! And yes I guess it does bring up that topic. By default, if the MapleRoyals staff are using outside sources to ban players, it would only seem logical that they would have to take evidence from other outside sources of players breaking the rules.






I appreciate the input everyone!

 

I agree I don't get what's so hard about this concept. That's a good link you've put in your post, and it gives me more insight as to what's going on. For instance when the GM Aaron argued that there's precedent, that's complete bs. Why? Because precedence should only be relevant in the making of a new rule, not banning other people. It's completely illogical to use precedent in a forum to uphold the ban of a rule that technically isn't there. If a new player is playing the game, who the hell will think he is going to go through the thousands of ban appeals to figure out he wasn't supposed to do something versus the Terms and Conditions. Even Dimitri stated that they will clarify the rule "soon" (2 months and waiting....).
What I don't think the staff understands is that leniency is more easily forgiven versus harshness, especially on a video game. If you're lenient, you won't get much pushback, but if you're harsh, you will in this case. The Terms and Conditions are basically there as an outline that SHOULD be for both players AND GMs.

It's irrational... players know it and the GMs know it. I know it may seem like I'm venting here, but I tried to be as unbiased as possible and provide a legitimate case for why this shouldn't be happening right now. We all agreed upon the Terms of Service, and it's within the GMs discretion to ban someone and the extent of which ban. Tim banned me and he most likely feels that anyone who even gets caught about real world trading should be perma-banned. But if someone like Matty who is a GM Intern banned me, he may be more lenient in the situation, because in the link you provided, he said himself that he thinks we should be more lenient in bans regarding real world trading. This is another problem, and while GMs will never make anyone happy, GMs should display consistency, which seems to be not the case here. Solicitation is nowhere to be found in and if it is, like some people say it is, it's not clarified upon whatsoever.


Edit:
Just also wanted to say that the whole thing is quite absurd. Even in Doochi's case it's like the staff refuses to admit that they may even be part wrong when it comes to the banning of people in this case.
In my complete unbiased opinion, this is how I would've handled the situation...

"You've been banned for soliciting real world trading. While there is no emphasis on the solicitation of real world trading, we will reduce your ban from a permanent to a 14 day ban. We will update the Terms of Service and bring this topic to the other GMs, and if you or anyone else gets caught soliciting we will permanently ban them."

 

The fact that you can merely joke about RWT and receive a permanent ban is beyond my comprehension. Seriously? I'm willing to put money down that we are all intelligent, grown-up adults here. If we can't even distinguish between a legitimate conversation to obtain an item through RWT and an obviously sarcastic statement about RWT..oh boy.

^ Probably isn't the main point of the thread. I'm still furious about RedTube's ban to this day. The decision to ban her is probably the only questionable decision the GMs have made to this day, from my perspective. Why on earth is she banned?! It was clearly sarcastic and was clearly a joke. It's obviously too late to unban her now. Who would want to go back to a game where they've essentially banned you for a sarcastic and joke statement when you know whole-heartedly you didn't commit any crime?

I apologize. Please continue!

 

I honestly don't know if it was a joke or not, I wasn't there and did not know the context of how it was said or what was said before or after. But if I tell a friend that I'm going to call this other guy racial/homophobic slurs and idiot and bully him for a couple hours, but then never do it, should I be banned?

 

If you can't see the difference between actively soliciting RWT on a RWT website and merely joking about it in-game...idk.

 

You completely missed my main point of the thread. My main point was that Solicitation of RWT has never been clearly defined, and in general seems like a fallacy when pairing it with a permanent ban.

 

I'm still confused to why you even wanted to solicite to RWT, especially after you made a thread in July asking about the RWT rules.
If we tell you that RWT is not allowed in any form, please use some common sense and don't solicite for it.. it's as simple as !
That's my 2 cents on this.

 

As someone else said in this thread, while you may disagree with it, 19 and 28 of the T&C definitely cover solicitation of RWT. 19 explicitly mentions buying/selling mesos and 28 addresses making a believable claim to have broken anything in the T&C. If you are soliciting buying or selling mesos, you are making a believable claim that you are going to buy/sell mesos. Whether you accept that or not is a question unto itself.

Earlier you mentioned in a post that generally leniency is more easily forgiven than harshness. I am going based on your forum join date, so forgive me if you have been around longer but I do not think you have viewed some of the threads that have been made over the years. It does not matter whether we are too lenient or too harsh on one individual. There is outcry when one of two conditions are met: the person is well known in the community and/or there is an inconsistency in how one case is handled versus another which is seen by the community as being identical to it but being handled differently (usually and, though occasionally or).

You will not believe the amount of bashing people like to do on the forums. The staff are horrible people because they are robots and do not show leniency. Several weeks later, the staff are horrible people because they are not consistent and do not treat every case exactly the same. I have brought up time and time again the example of someone being caught for speeding. You could be driving over the speed limit by the exact same amount each time, but one cop might let you off with a warning while another cop might give you a fine. The law says that when you break the speed limit you are to pay a fine, but that's not always what happens.

At the end of the day, I understand what OP is trying to say. However, I do not think you realize (or perhaps you do) that we could not possibly codify every single situation, example, in exact terms to explain what is and what is not permissible. If we even attempted to do so, not only would we miss cases (and another thread like this would then pop up), but the T&C would be even longer than it already is, and even less people would read it, and another thread would pop up saying the T&C is too long and filled with too many words which no one in their right mind would read so why should they be expected to follow those rules?

Again, I thank you OP for starting a discussion here and I appreciate everyone providing their views. I simply make my post to provide some context from a perspective many may not have considered or have been unable to view this discussion from, and perhaps provide some understanding as to why things exist as they do in today's world.

 

Man, I love this thread. I study law and these discussions kind of excites me.

 

Well obviously I wanted to gain an advantage at the time which kinda backfired in every way possible, but it's whatever, I accept the consequences as there's nothing to be done about it lol

I like what you said a lot, but for the love of god please update the terms and conditions, I won't rest in MapleRoyals peace until you guys do lol.

Glad I excited you today

 

And like I said in my first post, anyone with a brain should know that solicitation of RWT is grounds for a permanent ban, as it is in every game. Arguing that it wasn't explicitly stated in the TOC is ridiculous. You know it's wrong, and it sounds like you get a kick out of being a nuisance.

 

I find it amazing you've made it this far without realizing the point of this thread. -slow clap-

 

I find it amazing that you're still here when you're not welcome to play this server anymore.

 

Stay on topic or this thread will be locked.