TL, DR: You no longer need to buy billions of INT gear or add hundreds of base INT at low levels. You can enjoy low-level content as much as you want, and still reach the minimum HP requirement of Horntail after you are high-leveled, either by spending lots of mesos or by bossing a lot. Change Logs: 2018/01/17: Thread created. 2018/04/05: Added Solution 2 (increasing maxHP through bossing). Added constraints that cap maxHP gain to minimize side-effects. Added response to the concern that HB will be less useful. Renamed thread. The poll above no longer applies to the content after this update. Problem One major problem about HP washing is that, if you start doing it at high levels, then: It may be impossible to achieve certain HP goals. Even if it is still possible to achieve lower HP goals, it is much more expensive to do so (compared to starting from low levels). Many players had to restart characters due to this fact, which sucks. Others complain about having to add base INT and missing early game content. To solve this problem, I suggest making it possible for high-level characters to increase their maxHP, as long as they are willing to put in the effort. Solution 1: Direct Mesos to HP Conversion For example, NPC could sell a usable item that increases your maxHP by 16 for 25M mesos. The exact price can be further discussed and adjusted. Other constraints can also be applied (e.g. highest maxHP that ranged characters can gain through this method is 10K). See the "Concerns" section below for more discussions. Solution 2: Increasing maxHP Through Bossing This is not an original idea from me. This idea has already been implemented by other pre-big-bang servers. It's like mastery books, but for HP. In this solution, popular bosses (e.g. Zakum and Horntail) has a chance to drop an untradeable usable item that, when consumed, has a chance to increase maxHP by a certain amount. Each boss drops maximum of 1 such item. The drop rate and success rate upon consumption can be adjusted to make this approach as easy or difficult as we want. Moreover, constraints can be added to limit how many times a character can successfully consume the item. In one private server where this is implemented, each character can successfully consume the Zakum HP drop up to 5 times. Same goes for the Horntail HP drop. The highest maxHP gain is class-dependent. Here are the reference values directly copied from one server that implemented this solution. Of course, we can have different values here: Spoiler: Highest maxHP gain from Zakum (after 5 successes) Paladin: 4,000 Dark Knight: 4,000 Hero: 4,000 Fire/Poison: 500 Ice/Lightning: 500 Bishop: 500 Bowmaster: 2,000 Marksman: 2,000 Shadower: 2,000 Night Lord: 2,000 Buccaneer: 3,000 Corsair: 2,000 Spoiler: Highest maxHP gain from Horntail (after 5 successes) Paladin: 5,000 Dark Knight: 5,000 Hero: 5,000 Fire/Poison: 500 Ice/Lightning: 500 Bishop: 500 Bowmaster: 2,500 Marksman: 2,500 Shadower: 4,000 Night Lord: 2,500 Buccaneer: 3,000 Corsair: 2,500 Eventually, after consuming maximum number of HP drops, and without any additional washing, each class should reach the minimum HP to Horntail without Hyper Body. Advantages 1. It is not unfair to the players who have already washed. If the cost is set high enough in Solution 1, or the drop rate & success rate is set low enough in Solution 2, these solutions require same or more effort as conventional washing. 2. People no longer need to restart characters just because they learned about HP washing late. 3. People no longer need to add base INT and buy low-level leech just because they are washing. They can still train / PQ / enjoy other early game content. Concerns and My Responses 1. AP reset market will be affected. AP reset price may drop due to lower demand. Moreover, as @Venin pointed out, players lose a stable source of income from their NX, and will now need to rely on gach and pray to RNG god. My response: if the solutions above require more effort than conventional washing, and if the maxHP gain via new methods are capped at a certain amount (e.g. 10K maxHP for ranged character), then many people will still choose conventional washing with AP resets. Therefore, the AP reset market will be less affected. 2. The INT gear market will be affected. Thanks @Enticing for pointing it out. My response: Similar to the first concern. If the proposed changes are properly implemented, many people will still prefer conventional washing, and effects on INT gear market will be lessened. 3. The leeching market will be affected. Thanks @Venin for pointing this out. My response: Similar to the concerns above, effect can be controlled by proper implementation. Moreover, I don't think high level leech will be affected that much. People buy high-level leeches not only because they are washing, but also because manual grinding is so slow compared to leech at those levels. For example, grinding 4 levels at LV90 could take more than 5 hours, but only costs 35M in ULU2 split leech (1 day of voting NX). 4. With this change, people can make 30K HP 30K MP mages, as @Kleric pointed out. My response: It is already possible to wash to 30K HP as a magician now. You just need to MP wash for 150+ levels and convert all of those MP to HP. Moreover, as discussed above, constraints can be added so that mages cannot reach 30K HP using the proposed methods alone. 5. It is not good for the Dark Knight class if fewer players are relying on Hyper Body. My response: I want to point out that the current meta does not necessarily lead to a high demand for HB. Instead, many players still choose to wash to a point where they can complete boss runs without HB, due to the following reasons: It requires MUCH more effort to organize runs with HB. Attackers simply don't want to reply on HB for their survival. For example, if the Dark Knight DCs, or if the boss dispels and Dark Knight doesn't immediately rebuff, those who are dependent on HB will die. Few people are willing to put themselves under such risk if there are ways to avoid it. In particular, most people who invested tens of billions to reach the damage bar of Horntail will do everything they can to avoid being in such a situation. Therefore, even if the proposed changes are applied, the status of HB will not change much. It is not required in most runs now, and it will not be required in most runs after the proposed changes are implemented. It is still a very nice buff, in the sense that even if an attacker has the minimum HP to survive Horntail, extra 60% HP still makes the run much safer. I understand that administration wants to create an environment where HB is a vital part of most boss runs, because balanced classes sounds nice. However, it is simply not what's happening in the server right now, and it's probably already too late for that to ever happen. Given this situation, I believe the proposed changes will neither benefit nor harm the status of Dark Knights and HB, and therefore should be implemented due to the benefits I mentioned above.
I adore this idea. You can always work on gear but it kinda sucks you can't do the same for hp after a certain point. If it's worth considering definetly make it more expensive then regular washing. Just so its fair.
Im absolutely for this addition if it got added. But this kills the washing gear market. Im neither for nor against that, but some may be strongly against it as people have put a lot of time and money into making their washing gear. You wouldnt bother spending several billions of mesos on gear for the purpose of washing and use AP resets to wash out if you can just pay a higher rate and gain HP straight up without all the money needed to make the gear and spend time leeching or waiting to level for points
I think HP washing ruins the entire premise of the class system, however Nexon still did allow it as it was an easy and lowkey way to exploit the game and multiply their Revenues. Although I disagree with HP washing, this isn't a bad idea. Sick of people telling me they wish they could train but they can't do any damage because they are washing, and in turn entirely skip the first 3 jobs of the game.. but this might eradicate that dynamic. +1
Good suggestion, this is the exact idea I had for hp washing but was too lazy to type out. As for the price per hp, I would also suggest that instead of selling hp on a linear scale, that it be sold on a quadratic or cubic scale, where the costs of washing for example up to 2k hp (or whatever's enough for bossing) for a ranged attacker is around or slightly higher than what it would be to wash normally, and almost prohibitively higher to reach higher hp goals. A hard limit of x buyable hp per level could also be set too, where a ranged attacker could reach 9k hp at lv165 (you'd have to wait a few more levels as a penalty for not hp washing). Thus, casual players have no need to worry about hp washing and those that have or decide to hp wash can also do so and be rewarded for it. Also smooths the impact on the prices of int equips out, but IMO int scrolls serve too much of a purpose already, and they're mostly too expensive for new players anyway so if buyable hp only catered to new players it shouldn't affect prices too much.
I think I would like to add more concerns about this idea namely INT eq, Leeching and Newer Players. INT eq (point is threshold, to which we don't know how expensive it can be) -Demand will DEFINITELY go down but surely there will be a threshold to which the cost of +16HP being expensive enough such that traditional washing is still favoured Leeching -Demand will go down but not to such an extent like INT eq since laziness and time allocation is still a thing -Bishoos and Mages of all sort who rely on leeching as an income tool could lose their jobs ^Given the point above for leeching, mesos will be harder to earn and thus the economy will see lesser and lesser purchasing power. WS/CS will go down due to increase difficulty in buying them (as well as shifting from APR to gacha as income sources). Not too sure if minimum cost of WS/CS will still allow for players to comfortably buy them. Newer Players -No APresets to sell due to loss in demand, have to git gud at gacha.
I do like it, but I think there'd have to be a lot more thought to go into it so that it couldn't be exploited... Just off the top of my head, it should still have some trade-off with the player's MP. Otherwise we might get Mage's with 30k HP and normal levels of MP. o.o
inb4 30k HP and MP mages edit: The new Meta. Super hyperwashing to 30k MP then buying your way to 30k HP. I say this jokinly, but if you lower the bar to acceptable levels, new limits will be created.
I don't think it would be that strong if the cost is high. You can have mages only get 10 HP each time so to get 30k you'd need like more than 50-60b mesos and I don't think people will spend that much on a mage o.o And if you did spend that much I guess you'll deserve to get 30k after all
I really like this, to be honest. I don't mind spending months if not years to work on an infinite +1 effort, but the fact that I am essentially grinding to get a worse experience (months+ of preparation to lose out the actual nostalgic gameplay of being a shitty sin lv1-80+). It can be more expensive than normal, I don't mind, as long there is a way to play normally and still hit a common HB-less, community accepted HP goalpost, I am more than happy to work for it.
Part of the difficulty though is the grind when you're INT heavy. Part of the sacrifice is not having the normal 1-120 (or whatever) leveling experience. It feels wrong being able to buy the HP. I understand people can just buy the resets, and the leech, but even so, leech is either through hours of leveling your own mage or finding people to leech you and resets are currently gated by the maximum amount of NX that is gained daily. Even if AP resets were sold by Albert the required leveling with INT is still there. There should be a trade-off that isn't just solid cash if you want to get the best of both worlds. The biggest issue is that the most effective bossing parties cut out HB entirely, and focuses only on the top DPS and the buffs that make them stronger, in the smallest party possible. HB should be enhancing the bossing scenario, not hinder it. HP washing is not required, but you make it so when ignore HB for DPS. Unpopular opinion.. I know
With all due respect, who is this really intended for? Most people aren't still on their first character (unless it's a bishop like mine which doesn't use washing) and are already washing by the time they decide they want their "if I knew then what I knew now" character. If someone's going to put in the work for this to be an issue, one would think they would have done the basic research needed to utilize HP washing. I think every single class guide on this forum has an entire section dedicated to washing so anyone who did even the faintest amount of research into how the game works and how they should build their character should already know what washing is and why it's important for certain classes. You're obviously best off starting washing ASAP but, you could still get some results by starting at level 70 or so. If you're starting much later than that then I'd wager that's not going to be the only issue you have with that character.
10-foot disclaimer poll: I am new to the server, its just happen that I had the time to read through about 1-2 year worth of MapleRoyal history due to a lot of free time at work this week. Its entirely fair to brush my opinion off as evidence-less anecdotes. But I will appreciate a correction to my statement so I can re-assess my observation. I don't disagree that buying HP seems wrong, but I very much prefer it over any other current alternative. No one is going to seriously level a pure int physical damage character, if they do, they would have hundreds of billions worth of item carrying through them that its at least sane - but now those money are used to buy leech and AP reset instead, is that for the worst or better, I am not sure, nor do I have much of an opinion on it. Even a newcomer like me can tell you are a strong advocate of "HP Washing is truly optional" with how often I run into your comment on the topic for the past 2-3 days (been reading a lot, haha), I have some talking points that I'd like to talk to you about and now's a good opportunity as any. For most if not all games, I'd argue that perceived balance at times is more important than actual balance. Whether if the dev team can manage to push actual balance into perceived balance or skew the balance so people think the game is balance when its not, is a whole other story. Yes, I have no doubt that unwashed or even lightly washed can clear all relevant content with the right preparation, and that being competitive at that level would also require the player to own gears that cost far more than the wash itself (therefore, can be argued that the goal of said player wanting to be famous and welcomed at end game content have no reason not to and not being able to afford HP washing to begin with). However: 1. Player Perception (Both from the player and other players) For most player, you can't change what people want in their recruitment. Whether your job is useless or not, whether you have actually geared it to be not useless, or play it at a different level to not be useless is entirely at the mercy of the recruiter's perception. This happens in every game, every MMO. Its probably easier to get past recruitment checks lying about HP and range as a NL than actually applying for a spot as a proper Arch Mage. You can't ban people for HP washing, you can't ban people who HP washing from excluding unwashed, you can't make washing easier because it harms those who have washed Unless you have a massive network of friends who don't mind sharing their run with you, if you are not part of the "washed DPS" meta, you just cut yourself out of most pick up groups. Otherwise, you are stuck with parties with lower success rates, with one of the problem being yourself not doing enough damage or survival reliably enough to affect the outcome of the run. How discouraging is that? Playing a class you love, but always have this at the back of your mind? "Yes, I can clear, once in a bluemoon among the rare chance I get to try, but I am, for the lack of better words, a "waste of slot" among the capables." The easy counter argument is "people worked for their privilege too! You are just whining because you cant afford to do it now", which leads me to: 2. Chasing the dream Its easy to be one of the long time veteran of the game to forget that, once existed a massive playerbase on official server who would never get past lv40, who couldn't even endure 10 levels of adding weapon mastery. Now, with time and experience and knowledge, everyone starts at much further up the starting line, but that doesn't change that the majority of the player will essentially never achieve their far fetched goal. But, I think I speak not only for myself and many, Maple have next to nothing at the finish line. Thats why high rate server never thrives. Players grind on the dream that, with another mesos, another drop, another level, they are one step closer to their dream, from something sillly in retrospective (I just wanna get lv1 Strafe before I quit!!! - Someone, sometime in MapleSEA, circa 2008?), to building the perfect 30k/30k Ranged DPS with gg range, whiting everything against everyone. HP washing is a shitty dream. Its a shitty one from start to finish. You start the game by making a Bishop, if you don't enjoy Bishop, tough luck. You grind it to 121, and sell leech until the end of time, with side stories like trying to gear it up to 1 shot skele. Then, before you can think of having 40b to gear up your dream NL to get to a point you are welcomed in PUGs, you must first spend 3-30b washing. Not accounting for leeching yourself, buying int gear, doing maths, fix mistakes, skipping the first 3 job advancement completely, which arguably is the core of this era of Maple. And then you sit down, and realized that other than being able to HT comfortably, future proof pink bean, and having a nice HP to look at, thats a really roundabout way of 0 fun to get to what you want: mad eye popping character throwing big numbers for others to awe at. The chase should be an infinite+1 grind on the gear mill, not months of preparation to be on the starting line. 3.Permanency "damn, enduring that much grind to find out i can never X?!" TL; DR HP washing is technically optional, the same way you can describe "Any job/gear/0sp build is fine if you don't care about DPS". Maybe for some people, knowing their character isn't permanently locked away from perfection(or even basic viability) is the motivation to grind for another hour, day, week, month, year, decade. Just having the option, no matter how unreasonable it might be is enough, IMO.
Yeah, my Night Lord is 132 at the moment. It was my first character and i realized (people told me) that it was necessary to HP Wash at level 9x or so. It is about 4,5k hp now and if'd follow the game-meta, this would means that i need to remake the character. WTF? I find absurd making a game-meta something that will miss your level 1-120 experience. People claim too much about this server to be nostalgic and perhaps stays as it, and support this kind of stuff. Sure, like most of us did HP Wash in old times.
This. Honestly I do like the idea. I get bullied by my alliance on a daily basis because I have a level 143 Ranger that I've been leeching for two years and I essentially have no idea how to play this game except press Genesis. Is it ultimately my fault? I mean, yeah. But would a system that did not require insane investment into INT in order to fulfill my OCD 30K HP dreams have prevented this? Also yeah. But at the same time, I don't think it's truthful to say that these changes would be fair, if I spent two years leeching my "main" only for a system to be implemented where I wouldn't have had to do that in the first place. I think this would be especially true for veteran players who have super high level DPS characters that they remade solely because they wanted more HP. First of all, that is not a fair assessment to make. People have different goals on this server, whether it be hitting the highest damage marks, collecting all types of rare chairs, or even attaining a max level character with max HP. And describing certain goals as "shitty" or being "0 fun" is just straight-up rude. With that aside, what's more important is this: At the end of the day, your condescending opinion can be applied to any aspect of this server. If you really think about it, isn't doing anything in this server pretty pointless? I mean, playing a private server dedicated to a 2D sprite RPG in the first place? *scoffs*
I like this idea but this should definitely not be an alternative to traditional hp washing completely. For example it should still be necessary to use int equips/base int throughout the early levels for the bulk of your HP washing. This should really be targeted at high level characters that have fallen short of the necessary HP required to boss AFTER initially washing. Some ways this can be done could be: - After a certain level (let's say 135 for hypothetical purposes) you should be able to purchase a permanent consumable hp boost item. - This item should cost atleast a minimum of 30m. - It should give the same amount of hp as one ap would give your class. - Make this item untradeable - Place a limit on how often you can purchase the item. This way it will be 1) 2x the cost of normal HP washing. 2) Not doable until you are at a significantly high level 3) Time consuming to HP wash completely through this method These are just some possible ways I think this could be implemented without totally ruining the int equips market.
I think this is a good idea but at the same time, everyone can just reach 30k hp and that devalues the need of drks in any parties. In addition, if everyone is able to reach 30k hp, it will feel weird. For example, a range have 30k hp compared to a melee have 30k hp, then what is the difference between range and melee? Plus doesnt this reinforce for people to invite only range into the parties (30k HP NL) Moreover, I do find it discouraging sometimes when I try to find people to train with at wolf spiders for my white knight, there is no one that wants to because people prefer to leech it (leech should be nerf to be honest) or they have too much base int to train. Overall, it is a personal choice to wash or not, you can still boss well with minimal wash (not hard to do) and most important in getting into any bossing parties is connection (you should just play whatever you enjoy).
Everything has it's cons and pros. If you want to grind your way up, leveling yourself, doing PQs, etc, without having to worry about washing, you will have the basic HP of your class. If you want to have high HP to be able to tank most (or all) bosses by yourself, without the need of a Drk, you will have to do the washing, leeching yourself up with high int, etc. If there would be a simple way to pay for HP, without having to lose anything else than mesos, everyone would have high HP. Death to DrKs, Death to Mages (they live for leeching mostly), Death to INT equips/scrolls.
