Don't nerf specific classes, simply give better alternatives to other classes

There are strikingly clear imbalances in this server. It is the server of leeching (mages & HS) and bossing (NL, sharpeyes, corsair). However, these elements have always been a part of this game and should not be nerfed simply because other classes can't compete with their strengths.

Nightlords, Sharpeyes, & Corsairs are single target damage dealers === Best bossers

These are their strengths, so they obviously should not be nerfed. Now, what are the strengths of the other classes? . . . That's right, there are no real strengths. They lie somewhere between meh bossers and meh grinders (except mages) . Therefore, I propose that a viable, competitive option should be available for other classes. Highlight the weaknesses of bossing classes through party training in the form of Lion Heart Castle.

1) Make LHC to have have 5+ mobs, making it optimal to get just about any other class than a bossing class
2) Make EXP competitive to bossing, so bossers do not continue to have significant advantages (money + EXP) compared to non-bossing classes.

***3) Customize the mobs to encourage actual party play by adding features such as:

- rare weapon cancels (paladins & time leap get more incentive)
- mobs move really fast and ignore knockbacks (magicians have to actually use spells like "slow" or freeze the mobs, buccs have to stun or displace them through screwpunch, warriors use monster magnet, and other displacements)
-High hps so Damage-over-time skills are actually useful (poison mist, venomous star)
-Take less damage from skills that attack 15 mobs (Making mages having to use a skill other than meteor/blizzard/genesis for once in their lives

It is unfair to other classes that bossers showcase their strengths but not their weaknesses (excluding solo grinding as that is not the preference of most players). Single-target bossing classes get priority over other classes when bossing, so other classes should get priority over other them in an alternative option.



NOW WHAT ABOUT LEECHING? Don't nerf leech as it is a part of this game, but simply buff the alternatives that are PQs. Just lessen the discrepancy between doing a useless PPQ v.s. ULU leech, and introduce better exp/time ratios. Newer PQs like Romeo & Juliet would also help.

 

I'd like this, I support it.

 

I support the idea of an interactive party grinding option as I heard that the game mostly becomes holding down 1 button later on. Also, buffing PQs would help a ton as the PQ communities are really dwindling. Giving viable alternative options to all classes (non-bossers) and players (non-leechers) would be awesome.

 

I'm touchy on post BB stuff usually, but I think it'd be really cool to see how more closely classic maplers would fare against post BB environments, such as LHC, unchanged, when damage numbers were much higher.
Anything that might provide some kind of challenge might be fun.

 

It's interesting ideas. It got me thinking

However, may I make you aware of something

For warriors (and maybe some others too?) fast mobs is actually ideal. Why is Himes such a good training spot? Exactly, mobs come within reach quickly.

So in conclusion, I believe fast monsters will suit warriors and NOT necessarily encourage use of freeze, stun, slow etc.

 

@Zerato Thats a good point, but regardless, the point is for non-bossing classes (warriors/mages/shadowers/everyone but single-target dps) to have priority over the bossing classes in LHC. Fast mobs will discourage the effectiveness of bossing classes in LHC, but I guess the customizations can be tweaked for the need for slow/freezing/etc.

Legit its just sad to watch: Leeching into single-target dps bossers dominate this entire frekin game. There is no other possible alternative than to BOSS, as who honestly wants to grind by themselves forever? This gives advantages to bossing classes and puts shadowers/ paladins/ buccs/archmages/any other class in the dumpster. The decreasing population of the server, and the increasing percent of people hp washing/leeching/bossing is self-explanatory, and honestly, quite sad.

 

I'll just put this here: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/game-challenge-ironman-mode-solo-diy-no-trading.42779/
Just hit lvl 150 on my ironman shadower yesterday.

 

@MSdrawman

You have my utmost respect and congratulations on the pretty spectacular achievement. Unfortunately, you are one out of five ironman 3.0 shadowers.
For the rest of the shadowers out there, they are stuck between a bugged mesobombing skill and having no Assasinate 30 available for the past year. No one to take them on bossing, neglected, put in the garbage can, rolled around, and shipped to the dumpster.

 

I totally understand your pain. I have hit the point where I need assassinate 30 and it's gonna be a couple more months before we can expect GPQ. On top of Meso explosion being bugged (I've lost at least 1 BF this way because of this), it also doesn't work the same way as it did in old source. "speed bombing" doesn't work anymore and now it costs 110 mil to solo krex when it used to cost 80 mil. Might not sound like a lot but that's a lot more time grinding mesos when you consider I've done 4 krex runs (only 2 successful). I hope things can get worked out soon. Even still, shadower is my favorite class.

 

Those suggestions sound like indirect buffs, which usually end up making already strong jobs somehow stronger. Buff the classes that need it directly, as in give them better numbers, otherwise it's a half-measure that will have unintended consequences.

As for leech, alternatives can't be that close to exp/hour, otherwise, mages would fall under the why play it? when other classes are better bossers and can gain exp nearly as quickly without the need for leech.

The exp gain from PQs should be decent but minimal after a certain level, and make it so the main motivation for PQs is mesos/items. Have them reward you with scrolls, AP resets, perm NX, chairs and the like. Make it so that running the same PQ over and over rewards you with something after a certain point... Like after 10 PQs get an AP reset or something else if you're done washing already.

The problem to me looks more like of a lack of things to do outside leeching, bossing and hp washing... Party grinding could be cool but why stop there? Making PQs worth it all the way to 200 may be the way to go, and not just GPQ or CWKPQ... Jump quests or something else for solo play too, because party play can get tiring too.

 

Can we get a staff opinion on this? What is the possibility for a party-grinding option for non-bossers/non-leechers, such as LHC to be implemented?

This brings alternatives to bossing/leeching, which only favors a few classes. Also, this brings alternatives to grinding by yourself forever. This would alleviate the major problems of this game (class unbalances & leeching)!

 

In hindsight becareful of LHC. It might become another leech map. I used to leech ppl in GMS in early BB when I hit 200 Drk in one of the new servers. Partied 5 randos with SE/SI/HS.

I think LHC would he the ideal dual mage setup leech map with an HSer and selling trio split leech and will just become the next leeching spot after petris.

In short, the exp gain party buff will help leeching too and not particularly solve the problem, PQ buff would help imo, particularly would like to see an OPQ buff.

I feel like an alternative is make ToT/Oblivion specifically more attractive somehow. ToT is good because if you want to leech at ToT, you literally have to kill 8000 mobs and 2 area bosses to even get to Oblivion 1. I did train my hero in ToT from 125-145, with zak/krex a few times in early 140s

Not including mages, the best party grinding in the game is duo warrior oblivion 4 in my opinion.

 

I totally agree and support this idea.

I mostly solo grind here in Royals since i am not super funded, and it does get lonely. Its sad when you cant even find people to train and grind with. Most people would rather leech or grind out for mesos in order to buy leech. Sometimes it is a little demoralizing seeing people blow by you in levels, while you are stuck grinding especially after lvl 110.

I remember coming back to GMS when LHC came out and it was actually a lot of fun! It made players participate and work together and the exp was great. Made being a maple noob not so bad because you could participate with others instead being excluded because your class was not popular or dmg too low.

 

The solution to prevent LHC from becoming a leech map is simple- Make everything strong against/immune to holy/ice/fire, but make them weak (or neutral) to lightning and poison so mages (and paladins ) could still be efficient there, but not overpowered.

 

The OP wrote: Highlight the weaknesses of bossing classes through party training in the form of Lion Heart Castle.

To make LHC unclearable by the best Grinding Classes (The 3 mages) would be terrible.
Chain lightning is terrible for clearing and Paralyze is even worse. Essentially the two AMs would have to use Second/Third Job skills and Bishops would use Magic Claw.

If you've ever done LHC in GMS, it was perfectly balanced in the sense the monsters there were incredibly high HP, Crocs the lowest level monster had 7.4m HP. They're already hard enough for mages to clear (To be fair they got their mage ultimate nerf). In LHC you mainly did maps 1/4 which had the best layout/spawn which were Crocs and Bearwolves. Both of these monsters are weak to fire already if that helps.

I suggested in a different thread just make Temple of Time more rewarding. Flat EXP or Party EXP, either or; ToT prevents leeching naturally by making it difficult to reach the end game spots.

 

It would be unfair to mages, archmages are already struggling with maps and they are forced to sell leech in petri forever since there are almost no training options for them (only tot besides that) so many of them get bored and quit to make another character.

CL and Paralyze are single target skills and are weak and not really efficient at mobbing, in this type of scenario even classes like NLs will be better mobbers than mages (they do strong 1vs1 damage at least)

 

I went back and checked the numbers, seems like I was wrong and AM will actually be very far behind some classes there. My bad.

 

Bump, any updates to make party play/non-NL classes more viable?

 

They did buff party exp already

 

Neo Tokyo is a sort of diet LHC with the new party exp system, I couldn't ever get anybody to go though.

I think another solution is to focus on more multi-target focused boss interactions so that these classes are able to provide more value with their intended niche.