Final(own) conclusion about future A/M nerf:

As most of people here in the forum have already known, the A/M will have their ultimate's damage and mana cost revert back to v.62 where they deal less damage and higher mana cost. In my opinion this will have some effect:

_ Rage quit of some A/M and possibly quit the game(For some people, the ability to farming massive meso/hour with average funding made them love the job, nerf this ability just mean nerfting that love and when it reach threshold, thats is something predictable)

_ Revive of the master race aka Bishop, remember the time when the percent of level 200 people have like 58% of bishop? Or the time lpq have nothing but cleric and you end up doing it up to stage 3 then quit?. Welcome back MapleRoyals 2015. Bishop still a popular job but they got their ability to sell skele leech nerfed so most people quit them and make A/M at mid game for those exotic petri leech selling. Which the upcoming buff to skele spawn rate, bishop with the same funding on equips can sell leech at their favorite spot and as efficient as A/M (A/M can sell leech in skele too which almost same equips and even cheaper because of skill books, but people prefer to playing on 1 client than duo client with hs mule)

_ Gen 20 and 30 price increase: Inb4 1b gen20 and 3b gen30, along with a mild decrease in price of A/M skill books.

_ AP reset, Chaos scroll, White scroll price increase: This happen every update.

_ The demand for leeching increase a little as more viable leeching option (skele buff).

 

gen 20 is alr 1b-ish tho

 

News of newsource archmages buff also led to lots of old source bishops quitting back then. Seeing how things are repeated now, I guess it's nearly impossible to find a perfect balance that satisfies both parties. A change for better server can't be made without any sacrifice. Not everyone will be pleased with a change. We even had someone complaining about events because they take place during an unfavored season for them...
Then maybe we should consider which is healthier for the server in long term.

This original archmage buff didn't really benefit old archmage players but the new players who wanted to make money quicker than before. In other words, those who wanted to reach end game quickly. Early ulu grinding & leech, petri grinding & leech provided income faster than any other method available on royals. It's not bad or evil since those players are investing their time doing it but the hurdle to "end game" definitely got lowered by few folds. Along with increased equip drop rate, server was simply receiving too much raw mesos compared too old source and inflation came about.

I believe that struggle and difficulty for middle tier (upgrading from 2,3 hit to 1hit leech maps) mages in old source somehow controlled the number of leechers because not everyone had the consistency to endure the hardship till they reached the destination and often dropped out of the race. Now, there is hardly any hurdle for archmages because 1hitting high lvl leech map isn't a "challenge" anymore. Yay everyone (all AMs) can reach the goal and everyone is happy but are we really happy in a bigger picture? Everything has to be regulated in order to maintain necessary balance, especially in population, but current buff on AM took away the hardship that downregulated most of AM population.

This AM> Bishop balance in newsource led us to rely more on leech as we can see from newsource vs old source leech market comparison. It is because majority of leech buyers (new players who spend their savings to buy leech) focus on buying leech at later levels (85+ when grinding tempo gets slower) than they would at early lvls (~85 grinding/PQing still give substantial exp). Everyone repeatedly emphasize that bishops can sell low lvl leech while AM can't, such as jr wraith, wraith, gs, ws, wr, but these aren't as popular as ulu+ leech. If you joined royals recently and got some pennies to spare from selling ap resets, I doubt you'd use it away for buying low lvl leech but rather spend it on equips or zhelm service etc: unless the person is so well acquainted with royals economy from ban evading that they'd prioritise on lvling beyond anything. Majority of leechers past ulu are mainly archmages because as you described, it simply became too easy for average funded (or not even really funded) AMs to 1hit and sell leech there. Even if there are burst of new generation bishops, they can't all sell low lvl leech. Main low lvl leech buyers are rich people who have absurd amount of base int for heavy hp washing later. They are indeed increasing in number yet still really small in comparison to those who buy high lvl leech. What will most bishops do other than sell low lvl leech? They will pour their SP into shiny genesis skill and try to farm at semi high lvl grinding/leech maps and try to lvl so they can achieve higher TMA for future 1~2hit leech at high lvl maps. But this journey will take very very long, with people continuosly dropping out on the way.

For these "flooding new generation bishops" to 1hit high lvl leech maps, they need serious effort and investment, unlike AM even in nerfed old source state, before they can achieve the adequate TMA. The time it takes to 1hit ulu2 for bishops is like 2~3x or even more than that of AM. I can say from experience, half or more of those bishops would drop out before they reach the goal (quit or make AM. I actually saw many doing this in old source).

If the AMs decrease in number, don't you think supply of high lvl leech would naturally decrease as well? Otherwise I cannot understand why leech became more popular in new source when Bishops (ultimate, better leechers) diminished in number.

I understand the disappointment of AM mains as the easy-1hit-petri dream is about to be shattered but I personally think royals was more popular and healthier when bishops were in higher demand.

It's a personal opinion don't start a war plz .

 

_ After look back and did some math, i realize that the nerf to A/M not really affect them that much, they just need more fund (widely 5-6b) to able to 1 hit petri again and some level up to 1 hit skele, while bishop now can access to skele which make the more variety of leech place.

_ The real thing that make demand for leeching is HPwashing is left with a small buff that not really decrease the need of leeching. The demand is still there while increase more choices for leeching, I cant see a logic that people will leech less than now.

_ After all we cant see what happen if we dont experience it, so let it be.

 

Everyone's discussion is based on the data that is available from past, old source vs new source. Hp washing was a thing in royals since... Almost the beginning? Rich people were making 30k HP nls even in old source. Not that it came out of nowhere in new source. If there is an increased demand for leech in new source, it's created by AM players who accumulated large amount of mesos in a relatively short period of time from quick 1hitting ulu, petris. They can afford expensive leech for alt characters now if they wish to make an attacker class from the funding. The standard bar between newbie and veteran was raised due to AM> Bs balance because that middle struggling session is almost none existent and most people are classified as either newbies or veterans no longer middle class.

Old source bishop had massive benefit of SI buff with gobies map. Archmages sucked there because it took more TMA for bliz/gen30 to 1hit goby house than gen and their ultimate was SLOW. Skele map had way better spawn than now. So with the SI buff benefit + gobies as 1 of best bs grinding map gone from possible advantage, I don't think reverting skele spawn rate really gives extra benefit toward bishops.

Bishop lost 2 advantages in newsource (SI fm mule + goby farm) & (skele) while AM gained 1 advantage (higher dmg). Now AM lost 1 and BS gained 1.

BS: x - 2 + 1 = x -1
AM: x +1 -1 = x

Bishops lost more than AM if we compare old source vs newsource concerning their capabilities.

 

I dont really understand your points, the only reason for nerfing A/M are to stop (or decrease) leeching and they claim that on A/M. If leeching was high demand from begining then why nerf A/M as it not have something to do with the demand of leeching? Plus isnt it just make it harder to progress for newbies? I dont know what you mean "the standard bar between newbies and veterans", if you mean you want newbies have hard time like veterans before and need more times to catch up then yeah, nerfing their most efficient way of making meso is the way.

Your math is kinda right, but you forgot one thing: A/M and bishop never equal in the first place, if x for A/M are 1 then x for Bishop are 2 or 3 (dont argue with me on this, you experienced your self how popular bishop was in old source.). Plus if you feel bishop are weaker after the update, why not just asking for their buff, instead ask for a nerf to A/M, a nerf to the only thing they good at.

I feel that the nerf to A/M and the buff to skele is just to satisfy the old players who already have high level bishop. Again, im fine with the nerf because i really love my F/p and willing to fund more for its viable. but the reason for the nerf never enough to persuade me and (i believe) most newbies with archmage out there. And I think the statement that "Mapleroyals only favor veterans" is somewhat true.

 

That is exactly what I meant .
But not just for the sake of watching next generation of newbies to suffer like I did but because I believe that is healthier for the server in long term. I have witnessed many RPG games that got ruined when they implemented systems that allowed players to progress so quick that the main towns were filled with max lvled characters with best equips everywhere. Current royals won't end up like that just yet but I fear we will be heading in that direction soon enough. I have been observing the rate at which people progress toward endgame in newsource. I have to comment that it is inevitably faster, way faster, than old source and max lvled characters are accumulating at an impressive speed. The quicker and easier one achieves a goal, the less rewarding it is. My personal belief is that royals should be more challenging than it is now. Many will disagree but that's my personal preference toward the way game is run.

I'm referring to a positive feedback mechanism. Increasing number of AMs produce more mesos that are used to satisfy their ambition which ironically requires more of what they were originally doing but from their neighbors, which is leeching. I have many friends who sell petri leech on their AM but for some funny reason, they can leech other ppl infinitely but always buy leech from others when they are lvling their own alt characters.

As I said before, we could argue that original buff to AM was only to satisfy new players because it hardly affected veteran players. A change will always affect a group of people, whether they like it or not. Buffing AMs decreased the value that older players held since now anyone could climb up easily without the same struggle and enjoy the benefit of being a veteran. Staff didn't say this buff is temporary so older players just had to accept that what they had worked for held no more special value. However, newer players are currently going quite berserk (not you) for taking away the shortcut. Yea this nerf will benefit older players in a way but we can't just have changes that benefit new players all the time. In fact, most changes and updates benefitted newer players until now by providing easier ways to progress through the game. For e.g reducing the vote abuse increased ap reset price and now newbies can make easy 42m average / day just from selling ap resets. Next update with HP addition will benefit new players not old players that already finished hp washing.

Any old game will favor veterans of course but that's too obvious. Why would someone work toward becoming one if there was no advantage of being one in first place compared to a newbie?

 

It really feel pointless arguing anymore as we have different points of view of the matter. I now just hope the next update just not have a negative effect to the server as i worried. Im completely fine with the nerf, and hype with new HP adding and CWPQ.

 

I respect your view on the matter. I wanted to leave my comments here as it's a room for open thoughts. Hope new update arrives soon Happy mapling!

 

Holy fuck this was the most civilized debate I've ever seen on mapleroyals forums

 

That is all AM's can really do. There's always Temple of Time maps if they truly wanted to get the most exp and leech which takes even longer to 1 hit.

There is much more benefit to selling low leech+ being the number 1 wanted class in every party vs being able to sell high leech while dragging around a 3rd jobber. Door, invincible, HS, Holy Shield, Dispel, Heal, Bless, Resurrection and AM's have meditate?

If Bishop's can't 1 hit maps as well as Mage's then that's how variety in classes are made. You have to create 1 class if you truly want something and remake another class if you want something else, or at least that's how it should be. When Bishop's can 1 hit kill a map then they completely destroy AM in every category that exists. Support skills excluded, Genesis is even faster and requires less mp.

If they wanted to hurt leeching a bit and slow the quick level ups to 4th job they wouldn't be buffing the skelegon map. There would be a direct damage nerf to all ultimates or the exp gained by the killer would be increased while the leeched would decrease. People wanting to hp wash and leech all the way to 130 are issues that are separate from AM's so them being nerfed isn't the correct way to deal with it.

I agree with this too. A lot of people raised their concerns about hp washing and leeching years ago, and those poor players got the "Bbbut stop worrying about how others play if they wanna be leeched" Talk by all the veterans. There was many chances to reverse hp washing and leech, but it was never considered since so many people want to think an online game that exists to house many people shouldn't have a concern on how others play the game. But for class balance shouldn't all mages have a nerf? Isn't the only reason to nerf Mage's and buff Skelegon's so Bishop's can be on top again? That doesn't solve any leech or class problem it only gives Bishop's what Mage's currently have. I support things like the loss of FM button, removal of auto hp mp in order to prolong everyones goals and force us into situations where we need to rely on each other. What I don't support is Bishop's and NL's the classes who have always been at the top continuing to stay there and getting indirect buffs repeatedly when some classes can't even get their skill books or worst, they're just not very good at anything.

 

My key point in all my previous replies was that the journey for bishops to reach the leech king stage is very long and tiresome unlike the super shortcut archmages take now. We have been assuming that absurd number of cleric or 12x bishop will all turn into effective leechers at skele once it's buffed. Even if skele maps are buffed, only so little consistent and dedicated bishops will reach the end to shine as skele leecher to "increase" the leech supply because the tiring, bloody long journey automatically functions as down regulation mechanism. Currently, there is no down regulation for archmages and that's the main reason why there are unstoppable leech supply in the server. It's not the number of viable high lvl leeching maps (unless there are 0) but number of people that make it to the end and the rate at which they arrive which determines the supply of end game leech.

I don't think that's true anymore now that telecasting is introduced and HS mules are so common, especially among archmage mains. Casting speed barely matters with telecasting and potions are not a rarity in royals. Majority of archmage mains who are fighting against this nerf probably all possess one HS mule for themselves and cannot work without one. HS mule even has an advantage over bishop's leech as ex-GM once mentioned "I don't need to go back to the buyer for HS every time if I use archmage + hs mule".

I dunno what others have in mind when they support the nerf on archmages but my personal objective is not only to push bishops above archmages but focus more on the aforementioned "missing down regulation".
For your concern, this is what I posted a while back on the main thread about this topic.

 

Bishop's goal for the most part is HS before they become the main attraction for almost anything. It's nice to be wanted as a Bishop for almost any event that comes up involving parties while also being able to have your own ultimate to attack 15 monsters once. Archmage's as an appealing class they only have their ultimate and they should be good at it. If your issue is with leech in general, nerfing AM's and buffing Skelegon's does not address it. If you're worried that AM's reach end game kills too quick then all 3 Mages should get a nerf. Bishop's have trouble competing with the damage of AM's, but AM's can't even attempt to compete with door, invincible, HS, Holy Shield, Dispel, Heal, Bless, Resurrection.

I telecast and I assume everyone in the server would rather attack faster than slower if their goal is to kill faster. It is an advantage Genesis has while AM's also have to waste time activating booster in order to still be slower than Genesis. You're getting this backwards; HS mule is a is a pro for Bishop's not AM's. If AM's need the help of Bishop's to compete with Bishop's, doesn't that just prove how much better they truly are than Mage's? Bishop's can also make their own Priest mule.

The Bishop line is the most wanted class in a game. Even the people who start a non-mage character will most likely make a Bishop as a 2nd because of how good it is and these HS or multi-cliented Bishop's still count towards the classes strengths. I don't see why they would need anymore buffs compared to Mage's and are currently receiving buffs when there's class like Paladin's that can't even catch a break and Mage's who struggle to be best at the only thing they're really created for.

The exp change between the killer and the leeched is in itself already good enough to make leech less appealing and have it become a costly afk leveling alternative compared to a faster, active solo grinding or party play. For the sake of balance AM's need to deal a lot more damage than Bishop's.

 

I am just a mere casual noob, but it never made sense to me how bishops are allowed this much utility WHILE being able to clear entire map of mobs.
And that comes from person that choose cleric / priest as first character on global ms.
I am not in position to redesign the game, nor do i want to harm peoples fun. But its kinda dumb that grinding solo is slower, more tiresome than leeching, and doesnt allow you to pump 200int and then hp wash on top of it.

If anyone wants to truly optimally begin playing on this server from scratch, it means you need to create bishop first, and then you can play class that you actually want to play.
Perhaps buff to xp gained from damage dealt on your own, so grinding is more attractive compared to just leeching?

cheers

 

reduce leeching actually is just a click bait reason for nerfing A/M. Most of veterans(even A/M) pointed out that now aday its too easy for A/M to one hit petri(which. considered end game for A/M) with just decent equips. Therefore many newbies just look at the jobs as meso making mule, they cant taste the hardship of old players anymore so their bond with the jobs are lessen. So for sense of pride and accomplishment, a nerf to A/M increase the challenge and they will treasue the jobs more.

The source of leeching are HP wash, people still prefer leeching no matter how much increase exp in grinding alone just because they unable to train with a huge amount of base int. With the upcoming HP buff and hopefully a decent number of Drk still playing this demand will reduced. But it will still popular as the more long live the server, the more pressure for newbie to wash their attacker HP to as high as possible.

 

Could someone link where this future nerf was made official?

 

Somewhere here https://royals.ms/forum/threads/progress-update-11th-april.119134/

 

Thanks, so I went through the thread and was linked to the archmage nerf thread. I found this quote from Andreas, thought I would post it here.

 

I think sparky has a good point, along with some of the things said above. Honestly, all valid concerns here. It is very easy to reach endgame as an A/M. To compound the issue, someone who is hp washing has a harder road to endgame; if not impossible without leech. Andreas is right, this nerf is just a step in the right direction. The way hp washing requires base int is a problem. A problem that makes leeching a better route. If we take away leech, we will need to find a way to allow people to hp wash without base int (ahem, let int equips contribute to double washing). But that is for a different discussion at a different time. Thanks for sharing everyone.

 

LMAO

Lets taste the hardship of old players:

-Create a NL
-Leech it till end game LVL, while washing it

Sense of pride, nostalgia and hardship of old players over 9k in there

meanwhile, A/M get even more useless than they are ATM