Scamming and refunding

So I was browsing the forums like any other day when i came across this thread, which raised a few questions.
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/req...ing-scammed-scammer-is-banned-already.109254/

It's great and all that a player gets to have his mesos back after unfortunately getting scammed, but since when are scams refundable? Not to mention, since the thread implies that the scammer in question also got banned for said scamming, since when is scamming bannable?
I remember very clearly from my time in staff, when I brought up scamming several times and asked to have it added to the ToS, both to be able to ban scammers as well as to just discourage it, or at least show that it's not ok, no one else wanted it as it was "too hard to prove" and that it would only add onto staff members already great workload lol. While scamming in ToS was being discussed, refunds were naturally also brought up, and I clearly remember that the final decision was to not do any refunds, as refunds can sometimes get tricky in situations where say, the scammer used the scammed mesos to buy leech, leaving no option other than to either duplicate mesos to refund or to not to any refunds at all. Not to mention the countless exploits one can do if say my friend just "scams" my gear, then i get it refunded and basically get to dupe all my gear in trade for a 3 day ban. One could argue that you can refund people perfectly fine if the scammer is permabanned, as it won't matter if items and mesos are duped if they are on a banned character, but should someones ability to get refunded really depend on whether or not the scammer is permabanned, not to mention the chance that said permabanned player might get unbanned in the future after appealing their ban? With those things mentioned, staff at the time decided that there would be no refunds at all in order to be consistent instead of some players randomly getting refunded and others not getting refunded, which brings us to the linked thread. My question is simply; why is this player getting refunded? Since when are scams refundable, let alone bannable? What are the rules for refunds? What decides whether or not someone is eligible for a refund after getting scammed? Would I get refunded if my gear gets scammed? Would I get refunded if my mesos got scammed but the scammer say blew all the meso on scrolling? And if scamming is suddenly able to be proven, why is there no rule against scamming in the ToS, if you're gonna ban people/refund for it anyway?

 

The course of action of said thread is SO SO old source. I remember @Jeen used to refund mesos for bundle shop scam and leech but again, that’s old source. So my question is, based on what Tim refunded the OP ? Scam is no longer part of the TnC anymore.

 

Scamming is never against the rules, scamming is justice
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/islander-community-rankings-guides.17081/page-68#post-491565

 

My apology for going slightly off topic because I'm unable to answer your questions. But on the topic of scamming which has been bugging me for a while, I want to suggest a few things.

When I started playing Royals I was very surprised that nowhere in the T&C does it mention scamming, while at another ps I used to play, scamming warrants a permanent ban.

Granted that it is very hard to prove, but what if we have a proper procedure to record evidence, then all the proving work would be on the reporter's side, and it is up to the staff to decide whether the evidence is sufficient enough. Just like reporting a botter, you get evidence by recording them while prompting for answer, which is a standard procedure. For buying leech, you can record the transaction which clearly inform the leecher with something like "Do you agree to leech my character(s) xxxxx for n hours?", and get their consent as well (should also include your leeching character(s) current experience). You can even do this prior to a Zakum/HT run to counter SBs scammers.

For refunding, it is hard to prevent duplication as the scammer would likely try to spend his scammed goods asap, so it is probably best to not refund.

For penalty, I don't see why it should not be a permanent ban. The scammer clearly has malicious intention, and it is even worse than botting because with botting you don't benefit off other people's hard work (indirectly yes they do but that is not their intention), while scammers are well aware that they are stealing from others, and only get a 3 days ban??? Or not at all....

TLR:
-Record everything in a transaction.
-No refund.
-Permanent ban for scammers.

 

Scamming should always have been included in the ToS. Whether there is sufficient evidence or not shouldn't let us have this rule to deter distasteful conduct in the server. Evidence should be supplied by the reporters and supplemented minimally with some log checks on the GM's side.

I'm not too sure what the stance on refunding should be at this point but I'm not sure if the below should even be a factor in consideration. Have there been any cases of permabanned players getting unbanned?

 

Not for scamming that I can think of but Matty (one who got perma ban again for hacking) did escape from perma ban after a legit ban appeal.

The absence of T&C regarding scamming is also encouraging some nasty players to make advantage of the situation. Knowing that nothing in worst scenario can really harm them, they are causing casualties within the community at will. Even if the actual punishment requires specific, solid filing of evidence, that turns majority of reports away, the sole presence of scam-punishing rule would down regulate potential scams in future.

 

If anyone (I quoted your post because it felt the most right to comment on) would like to propose suggestions on how we word any potential additions to the T&C, I can't speak for the other staff, but I'd welcome it and would be glad to pass it forward for more discussion. I've made a thread for people to discuss how it could be worded, and it's something I'd be interested in working on going forward (tomorrow I finish my rotation and officially start my summer break!). I also think it's a more... productive use of discussion and energy. I don't think we should be upset because a staff member decided to help someone, regardless of past discussion that no refunds would be given (IMO). We should always move forward.

 

Its great and all that this thread has brought some attention to the case of scamming in the ToS, however, that was not the point of this thread, and the questions I asked in the original post have yet to be answered. As it stands currently, a player got refunded seemingly out of nowhere after getting scammed, with no indication of any set rules or guidelines for refunds, even downright contradicting previously established rules set within staff about scamming and other previously established standards for consistancy and fairness within player treatment and support.

 

I can't speak for Tim or his reasoning why he decided to help. I also don't think that there was really "established" rules, or it would say in the T&C that refunds wouldn't happen. Scamming isn't and we've banned people for it. I don't know. I guess I just question where you're coming from. It sounds like you were scammed and upset you didn't get refunded.. And if that was the case I'm sorry. But that's a really poor reason to keep the rules the same if it can be changed so future players aren't hurt like you've been.

 

Hahaha and what about the other hundreds of people getting dicked by the rules ? I don’t think the OP post was made out of anger for getting scammed. @Martin, did you ever ? It’s a matter of acknowledgement that this course of action is WRONG and shouldn’t have happened in the first place. stop trying to cover the sun with one finger. Its about doing right and following the TnC which in this case didnt happen

 

Helping people is wrong? I only asked because hundreds of other people didn't make threads.

 

Lol. Did you fully read my comment?

 

ugh i think you're trying to put words into martins mouth. Never through reading this thread did I draw these conclusions, in fact it seems pretty clear to me that martin wants scamming to be prohibited.

 

First of all, you’re a forum moderator, and not someone who would/should actively participate in any decision making regarding such things as whether or not to refund players after getting scammed, so honestly you're not really the staff member that should reply to this. Not only that, you even explicitly stated in the quoted reply that it was your personal opinion, and not an official staff reply, yet you quote it after I bump the thread, asking for a proper reply to the listed questions. Or are you implying that any staff action, whether or not it complies with previously established official rules and procedures, can be justified based on your personal opinion? To be specific; my question is directed at any gamemasters or administrators who would actually be part of the decision making (or rater lack thereof) behind such a decision.
And no, I’m not a previous scam victim angry because I didn’t get refunded. I am just pointing out an obvious inconsistency and questioning why this refund happened even though it was decided previously in staff chat that there would be no refunds at all for various understandable reasons, and the fact that there are no official rules or guidelines for scam refunds, not to mention scamming isn’t even an offense as per the ToS. Can I get refunded if I drop all my gear in fm and a stranger loots it? Because that would be, according to the ToS, as illegal (or rather legal) as scamming. Food for thought.
All I’m asking for is an official explanation for why this refund happened, what the rules for scam refunds are, and why players are getting refunded for scamming if it's officially an allowed/legal thing to do. This refund was seemingly handed out without any real consideration of the official ToS and staff procedures, which is what concerns me. If this refund was a mistake, then honestly that's ok. We are all human and everyone makes mistakes, and if that's the case here, then a clarification on that would be all I'm asking for. If this was not a mistake however, then I point back to the questions from my original post.

 

I would like to know about these inconsistencies in regards to scamming in the ToS as well. I've never been scammed before but it seems unfair to help one player who got scammed and ignore the hundreds of other players in the past who have not received any compensation at all. Also, while I think scamming is a very serious offense, I do not think refunds for scammed players should be allowed at all. In real life, if someone were to have been scammed by some false or "fake" business, even with substantial proof to the police, would they have been refunded the money they have lost from the scam? Absolutely not. Although it is despicable that someone has to resort to scamming other players to earn money, the person who had gotten scammed should take this as a lesson to prevent a similar thing from happening in the future.

 

First things first, Evan is definitely involved in voicing his opinion and helping to shape the future of the server, as am I, any other staff, and ALL OF THE PLAYERS. However, players have to put forth a little extra effort to change things through Feedback threads such as this one. Pretty shitty to think of Evan as just a custodian sweeping the forums for trash posts and trying to fix up the issues around here, yet not involved in the direction of the game at all.
He had to explicitly state that it was his own personal opinion, because every time someone with a special colored name or a hat next to their avatar pipes into a Feedback thread, everyone takes that as the official response from anyone and everyone who ever was and currently is staff, and then lynch that person when their personal opinion is not instated as infallible law.
I don't think he was justifying anything by empathizing with the fact that the player was scammed, lost mesos, and was helped out to recover those by a staff member. Empathy isn't always justification.

If you feel there is a gap in the Terms and Conditions regarding scamming, positive critical feedback is what's needed, not an attack against staff members for trying to help people.

 

Lol still not answering the damn question. Why is that guy getting refunded but not others? Why is he special? What was the guideline to get refunded if a refund is possible?

Like holy shit stop answering other useless stuff, it won't get anywhere with everyone's ego. Just answer >>> Why is that person getting refunded after getting scammed?? <<<

 

I don't understand why you want to paint op in a bad light. He didn't attack anyone, he said that forum mod don't decide if people get refunds same way as forum mod don't decide if people get banned I guess same way as us players don't decide in these things at least to my knowledge this server has never banned or refunded anyone via court of public opinion.

 

If the role of a forum moderator now actively involves participating in game related discussions and decisions, then I was unaware, and the role of forum moderator must've changed since I was staff. I admit that I was in this case wrongfully under the impression that, based off the name of the role, in addition to two former administrators stating that the a forum moderator was always intended to just moderate the forums, that that was their only task as a staff member, and that things like participating in discussions, decisions and making official staff responses to threads like this would not be appropriate for a forum moderator. However, if the role of a forum moderator these days also includes actively participating in discussions and decisions, and dealing with such threads as this one as if they were an admin, then that's my mistake for believing it was inappropriate for Evan to make such a reply. Pardon me. However, that also brings up the question why forum moderators suddenly has such a big role within staff, despite being hired to moderate the forums, while staff members like @Joong aren't even in staff chat despite being just as much staff as forum moderators. I would also in this case question why a person who doesn't seem to care about the rules, consistency and fairness in how players are treated, has a role within staff to actively participate in discussions and decisions.

I am honestly surprised that the entirety of my previous formal post is out of nowhere just interpreted as an attack towards a specific staff member, just because I pointed out that it was (at least according to the misleading staff title) inappropriate for a forum moderator to reply in a manner that made it seem like it was written as an official staff response to questions aimed at administrators and game-masters. The reason the post I quoted by Evan looks like an official staff reply, isn't because Evan has a colored name, believe it or not, but rather because he immediately replied to my post by quoting and subsequently emphasizing his previous post right after I bumped my questions from the original post that were clearly aimed towards the staff members behind the decision to do the refund. The reason I say it's inappropriate for Evan to reply here, is because he was obviously not involved in this decision, and clearly has no idea about the decision behind it (which is expected from a forum moderator surprise), yet replies to the thread as if he did. Sure, it's not inappropriate for him to reply specifically because he's a forum moderator, but his staff title implies that he was not a part of the decision, which I think is safe to say is true based on his replies, and because of that it's inappropriate for him to reply, considering he also has a knack for making his posts seem like official staff replies. Not to mention, these replies contribute more or less nothing to the thread, but rather just annoys players instead because of how out of place and inappropriate they are. The thread has even started to derail because of it... It's pretty sad to see that you still blame all the criticism purely on one's staff title, even though there has been several previous staff members that have made countless posts without getting jumped on. I once again suggest taking a look at the bottom paragraph of this: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/about-a-forum-ban-and-moderation.118664/
You ask for critical feedback, but if you, instead of just out of nowhere writing off the entire post as a personal attack, actually read the post, maybe you'd be able to see that it's legit constructive criticism. If you truly believe my entire post was just an attack towards a staff member for trying to help people, then I am sorry to say but you are very misguided.

 

There are numerous inconsistencies, going beyond this case of refunds, that many would like to see addressed. Much of the annoyance stems from the fact that these inconsistencies aren't really addressed at all.