Info Progress Update 11th April

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Matt, Apr 11, 2018.

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  1. Muff
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    Valid reason. I've been running out of Muffxxxx or xxxxxMuff ideas, haha.
     
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  2. Moose
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    MuffinMan was already taken?
     
  3. ilyssia
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    Have you tried adding more Xs? ^_^'
     
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  4. Scab
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    You can add even more Xs if you take out the muff part
     
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  5. john fox
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    john fox Well-Known Member

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    seeing how the last two updates both removed, and then added back telecasting. are yall planning on doing something about telecasting in this one?
     
  6. Muff
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    There are no plans to address telecasting, but if you have thoughts about that it would be great to post in the Feedback section about that.
     
  7. Scab
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    What are the chances that project mapleroyals is completely abandoned but just for shits and giggles the devs started hyping a fake big update just before leaving?
     
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  8. Muff
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    Absolutely zero.
     
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  9. Minh Tran Bui
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    Please do something about those gachapon exploiters, as my sensitivity realized that they have some program to leak information that show out how many people doing gachapon, I think they even develop an formula to know when it is the right time to do the gachapon. Cause Im so tired of seeing a tooler took 3-4 white scrolls, chaos scroll in a row, they finish that in like a millisecond then they got away right after that with no further gachapon doing.
     
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  10. Evan
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    Except, that's not how Gach works at all.

    Some people are sometimes just lucky. Corollary is sometimes people are just unlucky.
     
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  11. nosebleed
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    nosebleed Well-Known Member

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    Where do you people even come up with this nonsense from? Seriously....
     
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  12. doronos
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    doronos Well-Known Member

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    WHAT?!!!?! do you even know how probability works??
     
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  13. Arise
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    Well, many here believe in dummy scrolling....
     
  14. Tect
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    well, if theres such a thing as dummy scrolling, i would think some genius would come up with dummy gaching ~f7
     
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  15. PresidentGasMan
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    Is gach in royals probability though? How "random" is the random number generator? Normally random number generators start with a seed, and back in GMS the seed would be dependent on the entire server's population, meaning one person's scrolling outcome will have some impact on another person's next scrolling outcome.

    So it's not a question of whether he understands probability, but rather how much probability is really involved.

    Dummy scrolling would actually be feasible if you were the only person in the server scrolling.
     
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  16. ilyssia
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    ilyssia Donator

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    This might help to explain things 0:)

    I_should_post_my_resume_somewhere_in_here-01.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  17. doronos
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    doronos Well-Known Member

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    so why would you have to be mad? you solved it all. next time someone gets chaos scrolls go to the website and check how many people were online at that moment, and everytime you need to gach make sure there are less people online than you need and make "seed mule" which are mules to make players online higher. if there is any connection you cracked it! good job! (by the way i was sarcastic) generating a random number in anyway you can know about isn't random. i trust the system that it is completely random and sometimes i get lucky with 2 whitescrolls and sometimes i get nice and cold watermelon in the hot summer
     
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  18. PresidentGasMan
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    Lol you act all sassy but you actually have no idea how anything works.

    Being online isn't enough to screw with the RNG, you need the mule to be actively gaching. Even then, you would need to know the randomizing algorithm (which I doubt that guy does anyway) to take advantage of it.

    I can guarantee you that the system is not completely random. Every randomizing algorithm has a discernible pattern; it's just matter of how complex that pattern is.

    I'm not saying what that guy did gave him any advantage in gach, it's just that his theory has some merit to it.
     
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  19. Chokladkakan
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    No, not really, because the question doesn't make a great deal of sense. Probability as mathematicians, statisticians, and probabilist know it is some sort of measure of likelihood---the Gachapon is not that, it is just a virtual machine one talks to. The things it does has certain probabilities of happening. Moreover, just for the record, things do not have to be random at all for probability to be a meaningful concept. We could discuss the probabilities of the various outcomes of the Gachapon even if it returned the aforementioned cheese literally every time, all it would mean is that the probability of cheese is 100% and the probability of everything else is 0%.

    Probably (puns intended and so forth) not very much. Or, rather, not really even a little bit. Computers are terrible at doing random things. Their whole deal is being predictable, deterministic machines. Clever mathematicians and computer scientists fake it, however, and create pseudorandom number generators, which seem random.

    There are essentially two ways of doing this: good ways and fast ways. The good ways are so-called cryptographically secure pseudorandom number generators, and are the sort of algorithms one wants to use when dealing with encryption or related things. (The condition, for the interested reader, is that it should be impossible to predict the next bit in a stream with better probability than 50% in polynomial time; to my knowledge there is only one generator mathematically proven to be secure in this sense, called BBS and it's horrendously slow to the point where practically no one wants to use it in practice.)

    The fast ones are not cryptographically secure at all, in fact they are really quite predictable. Sort of. More on this in just a moment.
    Most programming languages implements at least one fast way to get pseudorandom numbers, and it is often a linear congruential generator. This is the case for Java's java.util.Random, for instance.

    On to predicting outputs: Knowing the parameters of a linear congruential generator, i.e. the multiplier, addend, and modulus (as we do for Java's java.util.Random, as seen in the source code above), makes it trivial to predict the next output if we know the previous output. We would just plug in the random number it gave us last into the same formula and we are off to the races.

    However in practice there are two things stopping us from doing this in a game such as this. Reason number one is that we don't actually have any idea of what the previous number was. Many actions in the game that require random numbers to be generated don't manifest themselves to the player in the shape of a number we can record at all, and even the ones that do will not be the actual number returned by the generator, instead it will be derived in some way from that number. For instance, consider the amount of Mesos dropped by a monster. That is a (pseudo)random number in some range, but when the source code for the game server asks the computer for a random number, the computer internally generates a number in some range which it then manipulates and alters until it's an amount of Mesos between, say, 60 and 100, or what have you.
    Reason number two is that even if we knew what the current state of the generator was because we figured out how to reverse engineer it from how many Mesos we got from a monster, we could not use this to predict the very next random number we will encounter in game, because, as it happens, many more things than our own actions in game depend on random numbers; the next number in the stream that we predict could be used for someone else's Meso drop, or a Gachapon interaction, or someone scrolling, or the direction a monster starts running in, or any of a large number of actions spread across the game that we couldn't possibly record.

    (Strictly, all pseudorandom number generators depend on a seed in some shape or form.)
    It is exceedingly unlikely that the programmers would seed the generator with the current game state. There are three reasons for my saying this: reason one, it would be technically challenging. They would have to distil the current state of the entire game, in some shape or form, into a large number and throw that into the generator. There are certainly ways to do this, but they are problematic because of reason number two: It would be ridiculously computationally expensive. Or, in other words, it would be slow.
    Reason number three is that it is simply an overly complicated solution (and for technical reasons also a pretty bad idea) to a problem that has easier and better solutions that require essentially zero work. The aforementioned java.util.Random, for instance, simply seeds the generator with the current time (as recorded by the computer's clock) in nanoseconds. That's generally good enough.
    For applications that require more entropy, say when seeding cryptographically secure pseudorandom number generators, the practice is generally to do the same but also throw in some other source of noise, like a few of the insignificant bits of the temperature of the processor, the user's current cursor position, etc..

    If all of this has convinced anyone of anything, and indeed if anyone actually read this far, it is hopefully that the above is not the case.

    Nor this. But, on a happy note, at least we now know the details of the generator being used, as linked in the Java source code above. I do not know for a fact that the game server uses java.util.Random, but it is very likely indeed to be the case.

    This, on the other hand, is true! In the strictest sense of random it isn't random at all! Not even a little bit! But it is, for all practical purposes, unpredictable, which is not the same thing. The answer to the last bit is almost surely "not very complex at all," as it happens.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  20. godys
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    godys Well-Known Member

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    Sorry bro, don't be mad at me.
     
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