Final(own) conclusion about future A/M nerf:

So weakening archmages solves this... how? Bishops will still leech. Archmages will need more tma, but will still leech. Enough high level leeches will still exist. That doesn't get rid of leeching, just make things harder on making a leecher.

The best way to reduce leeching is to reduce leeching's efficacy -- reducing the xp received -- and increasing other classes' ability to solo. The update already is increasing other classes' hp so washing is less necessary, but nerfing archmage damage won't reduce it's efficacy in the least. They'll still be able to leech... just later. Bishops will still be able to leech. And in the meantime, archmages will lose out on their ability to solo WHILE ALSO not getting the hp boosts. This solves problems the way Nexon did: by doing something that looks related, but is ultimately entirely unrelated to fixing the issue. Change the systems, not the classes.

Just some ideas on how to actually fix the broken systems instead of nerfing archmage damage:

If you really want to halt hp washing, change the system. If you put zero ap into your mp stat, you have no ap to remove; if you want to put ap into your hp, then you can't just get that ap back without removing that ap from your hp again. In order to think of this logically, consider a different stat: suppose avoidability and magic accuracy were ap-capable stats. You put points into avoidability, then pull ap out of your magic accuracy and place them in str. You aren't using your magic accuracy, why do you care if it's low? In the meantime, your avoidability is off the charts. You can afk anywhere and not risk getting hit. It's like permanent dark sight! That's absurd. HP washing is like permanent hyper body AND you still get your ap back at the end. The system is clearly broken. Fix THAT first.

If you really want to halt leeching, change the system. Nobody gets xp without particpation. Party xp is great for group training, but nobody actually does that. This system exists for nobody. The only possible exception is bishop, spending a fight healing everybody. Are you saying this entire system exists JUST so bishops get xp? If that's the case, it's clearly being abused by literally every other class out there. But just setting a restriction so only cleric, priest, and bishop gain party xp doesn't fix leeching for them. The real solution, then, is to make clerics, priests, and bishops get a proportional amount of xp from the boss as dmg they healed that the boss dealt. If the normal formula would allow for 30% of the xp to go to the bishop, then consider this. Let's say the boss gave 10,000,000 xp; the normal 30% of that would be 3,000,000 xp. The boss dealt 1,500,000 total damage to players during the fight, and the bishop healed 1,000,000 hp during the fight; that's 66.66% healed of the total damage dealt, and the rest was healed by players with potions. The bishop gains a healing bonus of 66.66% thanks to healing during the fight, and so instead of receiving 3,000,000 xp, it only receives 2,000,000 xp. All other classes gain a respective amount of xp based on damage dealt to the boss during the fight, and NO leeching xp. Like that, leeching is gone for good, and a system that exists just for bishops is no longer abused.

And for good measure, add a % xp bonus just for being in a party with people in level range, so players still have some incentive to train with their friends without losing out on xp they would receive from party xp share. Let it pool as a reservoire so that if your party members aren't also killing mobs, you have an empty pool of bonus party xp, and so can't benefit from an actual party bonus. THEN people would want to play together, there would be incentive to have allies to apply hyperbody etc, and leeching would be replaced with duo and trio training where super high hp wouldn't be necessary, as solo training with high hp would fall to the wayside. And training with friends is REALLY nostalgic.

Boom.

You have a broken game? You don't fix it by nerfing classes; you fix it by fixing the broken systems.
Nerfs and buffs are exactly what Nexon tried to do to fix their game and failed. I guess it really is nostalgic, then...

 

Thats why you dont change the core dynamic of a class, you completely ruin a game. take notes gms

 

This thread looked interesting. Now I know what I will be reading during my vacation.

 

I mean, the AM nerf isn't that crazy. I'll still be making mine. It's only a step in the right direction, not a fix. It actually starts fixing the problem the same way electricity works. Electrical current always goes the path of least resistance. At this time, AMs are the path of least resistance to end game. It is actually quite difficult to fund a bishop well enough to leech, but not AMs. So, people follow the path of least resistance and make a AM and priest. The nerf simply gives a little more resistance to the AM endgame (albeit, not even that much!).

Also, since people have already spent billions in washing characters, I don't think we can take hp washing out entirely (not to mention it also stabilizes the economy). It just isn't feasible or a good idea at this point.

I feel your frustration Kiomadoushi, I too find hp washing with base int to be a very unfun mechanic. I don't mind its presence though because bosses are broken, i just mind the extreme amount of base int required to do it

 

No1 wants to fix the leech problem, because it would cause even more complains. People just want AM to be useless.

Look at all those people supporting mage nerf, ask them what they think about recalculating the party Exp, they would set themselves on fire because they wouldn't be able to leech their chars to end game lvl.

 

I dunno where you get your assumptions from. I'm one of "those people" supporting arch mage nerf but I'd welcome recalculation of party exp with warm heart anyday since that would discourage leeching overall. I know you are salty from this unfavorable change but YOU need to stop looking at this matter in a biased manner assuming every opposing opinion is only based on people's own benefit. For my self, I support mage nerf not for my own benefit but for the sake of server's durability. This would not make AMs "useless". Balance between Bishop and AM were even worse in old source compare to the outcome of this slight nerf yet including my self, many others preferred to play AMs back in old source given worse situations. Just because a portion of this comfortable new source buff is taken away, it doesn't make AMs useless.

And making things harder for one to become a leecher down regulates amount of leeching in the server.

After all like you mentioned, changing the system is the best option but if that's not viable whether because the server owner likes it the way it is or there are client restrictions, best I can try is to present realistic options that can be implemented soonTM.

 

Considering bishops use the exact same gear as Archmages, and have the same magic attack stat for their damage calculations,... No, it isn't harder to get the gear for a bishop to leech. It's the same gear, at the same price, obtained with funds that exclude leeching (because remember, this is from before they can start leeching - that's why they want to get the gear in the first place), only requiring a different tma because of a different base damage. Buffing bishop damage will require a lower tma to start one-shotting. Boosting skele spawn rates on their two primary maps will further enhance leeching. Yes, it's harder to make an amage leecher, but easier to make a bish leecher. And bishops were overly abundant in GMS doing this exact thing in the same exact place. Not to mention there's only one map of petris - 20 channels - and yet two maps of exclusively skeles - 40 channels - meaning that this opens up more possible high level leeches.

But at the same time, cutting archmage damage so that what was once a one-shot is now a two-shot means literally cutting their xp rate in half. That means even archmages, to get the same xp rate as before, are better off leeching off a bishop at skeles. It doesn't down-regulate leeching; it just feeds the broken system even more.

And archmages, with previously obtained funds, will easily be able to pay the many bishops, which will only fund them to widen that gap even more, and with so many more channels of skeles than petris, leeching will likely become CHEAPER so even more people do it. Demand increases slightly, but supply doubles. (And no, supply isn't going to be limited by the number of leecher bishops. There are 40 channels, and more than 40 bishops willing to leech.)

Not to mention that wish bishops becoming the primary leeching class, nobody would need to worry about making an HS mule, as the bishop already has that covered. For archmages, that was a time investment to slow down when they can start leeching. Bishops don't need that extra time, so that only increases the speed one can reach starting leeching.

If their goal is to stop leeching, this doesn't do it at all. This isn't even a step in the right direction. Bishops use the same gear and will just fill the gap. Archmages lose out on xp rate and are better off leeching than trying to play solo. Leeching will still exist in its current form, just in different maps. There are twice as many maps, increasing the supply. An increased supply lowers the price, making it more available to everyone, including lower level players. And ultimately, the system will still need to be changed in order to properly fix leeching, and by that point, archmages will still be terrible at aoe, terrible at single target, terrible at bosses, and not even good money-makers. This is just progress for progress's sake. It looks like something good, because at least it's something. But it just feeds the issue, and will need fixed down the line if they ever actually solve the real issue.

 

Mind that every stats or opinion I share is based on my own experience and what I witnessed in both old and new source. I hope your ideas aren't only coming from theories but from actual events as well.

Seeing that you joined recently, I'm guessing you haven't had an opportunity to experience bishop's or archmage's life in old source. This skele buff we mention now will only return the skele spawn rate back to that of old source not really any better. Spawn rate was lower all this time in new source and only now, it's going back to what it used to be. It's not that bishops are getting a big advantage out of nowhere but it's more like they were disadvantaged for past 18 months and only recovering now. I mained archmage in old source and with lesser base damage (even less than what it will be after this dmg nerf), I never sold leech and "soloed" all the way to 18x and never did I feel like I was behind bishops because I always saw the lower lvl bishops in agony and struggling with lvling.

That difference in base damage is quite huge in new source. Such that bishops need a lot and I mean a lot more extra effort to get stronger gears in order to 1hit skele (compared to 1hit petri). Bishop with same funding as petri 1hitting archmage cannot even draw near to 1hitting skele. There were many friends in old source who simply gave up on skele 1hitting dream as bishop and moved over to archmage because the road was too bloody long and difficult. Price of gen mastery books contribute a lot as well. I had many friends who quit after failing 2 or 3 gen20s. Imagine how failing gen30 would affect people. I saw plenty of people quitting or giving up on bishop on 1 hit skele goal after those failures. That's what I call down regulation.

Where do you see this with current archmages? Do you ever see any archmage quitting because of failing a mastery book or not reaching enough TMA in due time. Probably there are few for TMA but I personally never heard of one and they are insignificant in number. However, it existed in old source with archmages. Road to petri 1hit was steep and close to but not as hard as that of skele 1hit for bishops. Archmages had to go for high TMA gears (nearly as high as bishops) and mw20, even HTP if mw20 book didn't go well. It was definitely more challenging than what it is now but it was more rewarding. Only those with patience and perseverence got to the so-called end game stage where they could 1hit petri for gucci leech income or server's quickest self high lvl leech.

I don't think I ever read bishops' damage getting buffed. 2 skele maps are getting buffed? I played in old source for a while but never did I see anyone leeching in the other skele map (dead nest) but maybe I missed it every time I walked past, somehow. Also remember old source didn't have this many ch. There were only 14 in my memory and we definitely had more in population. You are assuming there will be so many bishops that they'll cover 40 channels at a given time. Is that ....realistic? Bishops will definitely become abundant in number but will there be so many consistent bishop mains to fill up 40 skele maps at a given time? I seriously cannot imagine that.

Nothing has really improved for bishops since old source. They only received an indirect nerf (skele map + gobies spawn nerf) and now it's about to be reverted. Archmages gained a big buff and only a portion is about to be extracted. In net gain, bishops haven't gained anything in comparison. Yet, although skele was very popular and packed in 14 channels, there were times when they'd be vacant as well. If bishops' QOL didn't improve since then, why would they suddenly become so strong that 40 + channels would be filled with 1hitting bishops? I promise you, it's really not easy to get that far as a bishop. If they'd be filled with 2hitting bishops as well, same could apply for archmages in petri since they can 2hit ... at way earlier level than bishops in skele.

Archmages generally lvl much faster than a bishop because they can quickly grind at high lvl maps right after 4th job advancement while bishops cannot. Bishops have HS buff to boost exp gain but that has so little effect if the bs is trying to lvl up fast because best they can do is 3~4 hit high lvl maps like ulu1~2 after 4th job adv while archmages can 2hit ulu maps once they are past ~125 lvl.

Just to emphasize how minor this change is and how large the difference in their base damage is, I'll give an example.

If we had to race with you playing a bishop and I playing archmage (after damage nerf), I can guarantee you with equal time and effort, I'll still be able to reach the end game (petri 1hit) AND make a hs mule before you reach bishop's end game (skele 1hit as bishop). Any one with experience would probably say the same. Bishop can sell low level leech on the way yea ... but what's the point if I can make an archmage and rush to 1hit petri, without leeching on the way, to sell that dank expensive 1hit petri leech for future funding, which is basically what most leeching mages are made for. I'd arrive at that point way quicker than bishop and in net profit/time, archmages would still make more money than bishops.

 

The way i think this might have a positive impact on the leech market would be that bishops are not stuck at 130 and will try to reach skele 1hit instead of just selling low level leech to everyone who needs. Low level leech is a thing that seems to have gotten more and more common since new source was introduced and I've seen many people complaining about it before.

 

It has a positive impact on bishops making them the only reliable way of getting a leech mule. Bishops are brought for boss runs as well making them top priority for the whole mage class, Making Archmages just another class to be forgot about like a bowman in regular maplestory. Competence is needed to nerf a class to the point of uselessness. It would of just been easier to add mushroom kingdom, kerning mall, and other exp bound quest lines for the people complaining constantly of the "Unfairness" of archmages map clearing. dang we might as well put a cool down on their aoes so we can make the class a complete waste of time.
I feel as this server is falling in the direction of regular servers and I don't like it one bit, considering all other options need to be weighed in before they decide to pull the trigger on a class that has been used for one purpose since the beginning.
~Agree or Disagree this is my outlook.

 

The way I see it the only real reasons for an archmage nerf are:

1) Older players are upset they spent a lot of time getting TMA gear to one hit certain mobs that you can now accomplish with almost no funding.
2) Bishops that spent billions to one hit skele are being overlooked for archmages that can 1hit petri at a fraction of the cost.

Nerfing archmages wont help any real problems on the server, such as the leech mentality or current state of the economy.
Skele leech will become more popular, petri leech will still be better but harder to find a seller.
It is possible that gen prices will go even higher after an archmage nerf (good for bossers, not so good for new bishops).
Likewise Blizz 30 and Meteor 30 prices may drop significantly (I got both meteor 20 and 30 for about 40m in old source).

Having both a bishop and an archmage I don't care much for the nerf. It just means I will be spending more time on my bishop than my archmage.
My two cents, if you are going to nerf archmages do not revert them to old source dmg and increase mana costs. That will be too much at once.
Try to find a balance between old source and new source dmg and mana cost so that archmages are not made completely obsolete compared to bishops.

 

making an hs mule literally takes 2 days, its pretty dumb to make a bishop for the purpose of selling leech. you wont be able to sell leech till 17x+ while archmages can do it at 130 NAKED with just a clean wand5/7. Plus archmage nerf only makes you require 70 more tma, just level up 13 times now before patch hits in 2 days and go on your merry way..

 

2 days to make an hs mule, that's an even better pro for Bishop's than Mages. Bishop's can sell leech and are valuable to any training or boss party.

Bishop's can sell leech as soon as 120, just depends on which monsters. They're also such an amazing class that people want them in their party as soon as they're level 81.

 

bs can only sell low level leech until 17x with average funding, price of low level leech is 80m + 20m drops, negligible meso pickups = 100m. Not to mention they themselves will not be leveling up to get to 17x to start selling ulu2. They are capped at 100m p/h income forever unless they train with ~30m per hour NPC income 2 hitting ulu1 to get to 17x. Even then, they can only sell ulu2 pre-patch; skele leech price is higher but NPC+meso pickup is lower so income is roughly similar.

archmages on the other hand only has to train with 30m perhour income from 120-130 2 hitting ulu2 until they can wear their elewand and max their ulti, then can start selling ulu 2 leech with absolutely no funding (just clean wand5/7 and max ulti will 1shot ulu2 even post nerf). Not only that, they can develop their archmage and level it up to eventually move onto petris which is currently 200m per hour (150m leech, 40m NPC, 10m meso pickup) WHILST earning a good income of 135m an hour, as opposed to bishops who have to choose between leveling up with virtually no income or making money low lvl leech and suiciding constantly permacapping their income at 100m per hour.

 

Bishop's can still sell leech and make more mesos than most classes along with being the most wanted class in bosses.

So you want Bishop's to be on par with Archmage's at ultimates? How are you going to make Archmage's as useful as Bishop's at bossing and being in parties? I know Archmage's get more out of leech, but in the end Bishop's still have an ultimate and they can make a lot of money with it. Where's my weaker version of hs and resurrection for my fire mage? Mage's can't even walk up to the starting line when it comes to support skills. Bishop's have way more perks than Archmage's and that's why people keep making mules out of them and bringing them to bosses.

 

hence why bishops are bad at leech and are only good (at bosses) for dual client hs while on your main attacker or dispel spamming which is INCREDIBLY boring. huge problem with pre big bang maple is that mages are complete garbage at anything other than farming mesos. the price you pay for gen 20/30 is a complete waste of meso imo compared to 100m meteor30 and free meteor20

Meta right now is make 81 hs mule, high lvl mules of your choosing (127 bucc, se, bs), archmage for meso farming and attacker class of your choice to boss.

 

Sparky95 looks like a fan boy talking about Bishops being buffed and looks like you're the only one happy with this, curryisshott didnt said hi to you in GMS and thats why you're mass attacking AM, ¿right?

 

They're top 3 at leeching. That's good enough to make more money than most classes where. AM's can hurt boss runs more than help.

This whole game is just spamming the most useful skill in a situation against a cpu that doesn't throw any surprises. Bishop's also have a lot of duties against Horntail. If Mages are only good at farming mesos then why have Bishop's become as good as them in that category? Genesis is expensive, because the Bishop class is played more. Bishop's and NL's are played more than other classes, because people find them very important.

How is a level 81 hs mule to be efficient against Horntail and Toad? Bishop's are useful in multiple situations at almost every level range. When we get CPQ back and dojo they will be even more useful compared to Mages. Bishop's are good enough to objectively benefit every situation while Mages are not.

 

Something to note. The AM nerf, the boost yo skeles, etc, they will be exactly where they were in old source... which was stable for years.

This is a reversal of a buff, more so than a nerf.

Mages were always the "cheap" alternative to bishops because they couldn't boss. All mages will still rule the farming and grinding game. It'll be slightly harder to 1 hit some places, that said, if you're able to 1 hit oblivion or regret maps, You will probably still be able to, that elemental damage and all

 

Looks like someone's only reading what they wanna read but skipping through the rest. You gotta realize bishops aren't ever getting buffed but only a "portion" of buff to archmages is getting reverted to the previous state. I guess you aren't aware since you joined only in new source. I wonder why people think bishops are getting buffed all of a sudden?