Hello everyone. I've decided to make this thread so we (the community and staff) can come together and hash out potential additions to the T&C with regards to scamming. It's a notoriously difficult thing to put into words, so the more people that contribute, the better it will be I think (That's my hope at least... lol). Stuff to consider before posting If something is added to the T&C, there would be punishments attached to it. How much should the infractions be? How many should there be before a permaban? How do you define scamming? What is included in that definition? What are the cut offs? Should there be clear cut offs? What sort of evidence should be required? How much, if any, should be provided by the player? How much, if any, should be corroborated by staff (read: how much should found in logs?, etc.) Would we want to refund or is a ban sufficient? What if they steal something consumable, and use it and it works (Like a WS on an item or they use the money to buy items from players). How do we account for situations like that? There's probably more. This of course isn't an all inclusive list. *Note* I want to make clear, this thread is to encourage discussion and to collaborate on something that could help the server in the long run. It's by no means a guarantee that something will be done. My hope is something can be put together, good enough, that it can be added and benefit people. I'm also including a poll, just to gauge interest. If you vote no, feel free to say why. Of course, if you vote yes (I assume this will be the majority) and you have ideas, feel free to express those ideas. Thanks!
I’m all for making real scamming against the rules. By real scamming I mean stealing of course. So things like not paying for a Zhelm, bf toe, etc., not paying your end of a deal (such as not giving the person the item(s) after they pay), or not paying for leech. What isn’t scamming and what I’m not for making against the rules are things like “bundle shop”, “22 WA glove” (really a knuckle) or anything related to the price of an item or the price you pay for an item. The onus is on the player to read what an item is before they purchase it. It is never the sellers fault if somebody buys an item and they regret it - whether that be buying a knuckle thinking it’s a glove, 1 heartstopper instead of 100, or an eye accessory for acc scroll instead of INT. These can all be avoided if the buyer simply reads the description prior to making the purchase.
I changed my vote from no to yes after reading your comment. Yes, i agree that scamming trust based services such as leech, helm/ring should have a consequence, other than gaining a bad rep. Trade and shop blunders made by sellers or buyers should not be categorized as scam at all.
Here're my 2cents, it would really help if we first set out what are the common types of scams atm. Based on the community blacklist, here are some examples: Leech Scam - Leech service not completed after payment and vice versa BossRuns related - Looting items such as zhelms/sb/htp and not paying for it, looting things that they did not pay for. Shop related- Bundle scam, mis-selling Fame related - Fame w/o receiving payment, payment w/o receiving fame Trade related - Goods delivered w/o payment, payment delivered w/o goods Others - Situation where promise are not delivered The likelihood and severity of each event varies and so should the punishment. I would suggest that the objective of adding new clauses into the TnC is to achieve the following things. 1) Discouraging scamming 2) If possible, ensures that the promises on both sides end up being delivered While satisfying the following conditions: 1) The victim will not be better off than before as a result of the punishment (e.g: taxable refunds) 2) No items/mesos will need to be created 3) Minimize burden on GMs With this in mind, I would suggest the following that the punishments should first attempt to complete the deal (e.g: forceful transfer of item/meso for goods, full/pro-rated refund for services) if possible. If not, a ban duration based on number of infractions. Leech Scam - Without a standard expectation of how much % a leech can provide, it's difficult to distinguish between a real scam/bad buyer. However, if there is overwhelming evidence that a scam did infact happen, a full/pro-rated refund should be done. If not, it will result in 3 day/14 day/permanent ban BossRuns related - Item/money returned, if not possible, 3 day/14 day/permanent ban Shop related- Willing buyer willing seller, no scam involved Fame related - Full/pro-rated refund should be done. If not, it will result in 3 day/14 day/permanent ban Trade-related - Item/money returned, if not possible, 3 day/14 day/permanent ban Others - No punishment if not defined above In order to make a report, players are required to compile all evidence to prove that a scam occurred after 72 hours, which gives the "scammer" sufficient time to make up for it in case it's due to bad connection/misunderstanding. I would also suggest a public subforum (unlike current report abuse) to be created for such purposes so that the alleged scammer have a chance to attempt to resolve the matter within the timeframe or argue his/her case in the report as well.
At least one ss with both parts agreeing to something that they then fail to do should be required as evidence. In cases such as where you pay a leecher to sell you 1 hour leech and he leaves after 30 minutes the buyer should have to provide screenshots with ~servertime when the leech started and when the seller stopped as well as the screen shot of the agreed time, starting time (server time), price and the exchange of mesos. Staff members will have to check logs to see if the accused never lived up to their agreement in cases of trust trades/boss runs. I agree with previous posts there should be a grace period before there is any action taken towards these sort of cases. Just in case there was some sort of failure to get online to refund or finish a service or whatever the case may be. I think that the report can be posted when you want though however the staff shouldn't start investigating or doing anything until the grace period is over, at that time they should probably reply to the report and ask in case they have already managed to solve the dispute and only if they didn't they should start investigating or take action. I also don't think that buying an item at the wrong price in a store is to be considered being scammed. Punishment: Scammer refunds during the grace period (or agreed time period) - no ban needed. Scammer refuse to refund - ban needed, sufficient time according to previous offences.
Alright, to summarize... I'm seeing a lot of... "no shop scams", which I think is fine, that's what the community black list is for. I'm also seeing a certain amount of time should be given between the scam in question and action being taken in case something goes wrong (we all experience shitty internet at times) I'm also seeing some 3 strike type things (3 days/ 14 days/ perm). I think it's fair, if there was a 7 day in there too, it might feel like people will take advantage of non-perm bans before they get to the perm ban.. Thanks for the responses so far!
If there is a proper format/evidence required for scam reporting that can eliminate any potential false accusations, I don't see why a heavier punishment shouldn't be given. Even if it means that some scammers will be able to get away due to the lack of evidence, at least this will be alot easier on the GMs as no chatlogs/tradelogs check will be required.
And what would happen to the scammed item/meso? Is the scammer obligated to refund after his ban duration is over or GM will have to manually retrieve the scammed stuff from the scammer to refund? Honestly I don't see why it should not be a first strike permanent ban offense. I can basically scam people twice because I won't be perm banned until 3rd offense so why not? Same logic applies for vote abusing, which is why you guys have to separate it into "major" and "minor" vote abuse. Of course it depends on how refunding is handled. But it will just be a lot more troublesome if the scammed items/meso have already been traded with something else, so there is no way to retrieve it from the scammer, and if GM still decide to refund then that would cause duplication. As I've stated in my post in the other thread, it is best to just permanent ban the offender and no refund is needed.
You are right there's a problem with having multiple strikes before getting permanently banned however I don't think having perm ban for first offence as a good alternative since there is people who don't read the t&c or don't even understand it. They have to learn the hard way... I think that it would be better to have one 30 day ban or so for the first offence and then the second offence could be permanent. I agree with some earlier post that this should serve to discourage scammers rather than an outright purge of them. I think many of these scammers are opportunists rather than outright scammers/criminals they just see an opportunity to make some quick mesos. If scamming were to have an actual down side other than being on a list on the forum that most people never look at anyway I think the opportunistic scammers could play the game like anyone else without having a negative impact on other players.
simple thoughts on what sacmming should be banned: leech and zhelms htps and boss drops and fames scam should be banable, like ap drop trade or others shall not be bannable. difference is if the two parts have other ways to prevent it or not, i.e. drop trade is not necessarily required but the choice players chose, along with the risk, for boss service and drops there is no other options which means players have to suffer the risk. when bannable sacmming committed, the illegitimate benifits scammers gained shall be removed and the lose of the legitimate players shall be refunded. merely my simple thoughts
Hi all, i myself create a thread recently because i was against scamming. I really wished the GMs could consider doing something about this as it is something that I viewed very seriously after what happen to my friend who got scammed by xSE7EN and it is saddening how nothing can be done right away to help my friend. Stuff to consider for posting If something is added to the T&C, there would be punishments attached to it. How much should the infractions be? How many should there be before a permaban? I think the punishment should go with 14 days/perm, along with their sub account, as there is no point if they can continue create new character/account to scam (it doesnt make sense if sub account can hold scam item while main account got ban, it still benefits the scammer). It also depends on how serious the GM feel for the incident should be, whether it is really on purpose or accidental, which (item / money) can be returned back. I viewed scamming as important as banning for hack or etc. How do you define scamming? What is included in that definition? What are the cut offs? Should there be clear cut offs? My definition for scamming is for e.g. boss scamming - looting items but they do not admit it, leech scamming - do not provide full leech and not paying back amount, item scamming - i do not mean selling at discounted price = scamming but more to, whether both parties fulfill their obligation at each end or not. What sort of evidence should be required? How much, if any, should be provided by the player? How much, if any, should be corroborated by staff (read: how much should found in logs?, etc.) I am not sure how much the staff can find out (e.g. whether can they view the trading logs or not), but surely the victim should provide a few screenshot that they were really scammed, e.g. screenshot of item/meso given before trading, if a pet is looting, maybe to screenshot the pet loot in time(?) Would we want to refund or is a ban sufficient? What if they steal something consumable, and use it and it works (Like a WS on an item or they use the money to buy items from players). How do we account for situations like that? I think that refund is sufficient for the first time, but subsequently no. GMs may need to keep a log on who is a repeat offender though if they steal something consumable, most probably paid by meso? There must be something that can be done i guess, but i cannot think of it now I think ultimately we need to know how serious all players and GMs think scams are. I want to have an enjoyable time here and the whole community should work together to provide this. There is no point if whatever effort or time we used to invest in this game, and it got scammed away.
I would also like to propose false bidding be added as a sub-section of this clause. I have seen people in the past (not necessarily in MapleRoyals) who got their friends to bid on their items, just to attract higher bidders by real buyers.
This sounds good, but could become very problematic. How do you prove intent? What if there's no proof of "false bidding" in the chat logs? Other than that, there's no way to prove it since either the buyer could suddenly say "I'm no longer selling this" or the false bidder can actually buy it (temporarily).
